St.Louis Fans

[iced]

Do you guys run into this crap? I'm a fan of two sports teams. Rams obviously and Mizzou football. I don't much like baseball but if a team is gonna win, I want it to be the cards and I couldn't give two shits about the blues. So, on fb after the cards lose I saw several bastards posting about "yea we may have lose but atleast we made it this far unlike the Rams" and I'll see crap like send the Rams away. I think I'm gonna have to unfriend some folks lol. The following in STL is just pittiful.

happens in every city

One of my best friends is a die hard Rays fan but doesn't really care for the Bucs

 

[CoachO]

I'm saying it aggravates me deeply when the comparison is drawn between the Cardinals and Rams. I will admit, the Cardinals have done very well for themselves but they do have an enormous advantage. Yes, they were 13th this year in total team payroll but that is a highly misleading figure when taken alone. Some teams listed above the Cardinals in salary spending only payed out less than 1% more. Now looking back over the past 30 years, the Cardinals have been consistently in the top 10 with their salary spendings.

However, this doesn't explain completely why the Cardinals have done so well. Looking at the National League Central division, the Cardinals have almost always paid more than the Pirates, Reds, Brewers, and Cubs so it should be noted that they have an advantage to make the playoffs every year. The Reds did have the higher salary this year (by less than 1%) but the Cardinals gain the advantage in one of the best, more highly paid coaching staffs in the MLB.

Now let's add the fact that the Cardinals play in the National league. The majority of the top 10 most highly paid teams are in the American league (this includes 4 of the top 6). Therefore, the Cardinals have to play these teams less often and are not competing with any of them for a playoff spot unless they fall in their own division. When the playoffs come around, some of these top teams who share a division are forced into a deadly one game wild card playoff matchup. Once you examine all this, you find that the Nationals and the Cardinals have the easiest paths to the World Series.

Say what you will about baseball but it is plainly unfair. The Yankees have paid the most in net salary in MLB history and they have won 27 times. Teams like the Padres, Rockies, Brewers, Astros, Rays, and Mariners (all lower paid teams) have never won. Obviously salary is a huge factor.

I think you are ever simplifying the situation drastically. Every year, when you look at the 8 (now 10) teams that make the Playoffs in MLB, there are ALWAYS a mix of high and LOW payroll teams. And BTW, the Cardinals were ranked SEVENTH in the National League this year in payroll. This year you have Oakland, Tampa, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Kansas City way down the list in payroll. You have teams such as the Astros, Rockies, Brewers, Rays who have all had their share of post season appearances. While high payroll teams such as the Red Sox, Dodgers, Cubs, and Angels have had more than their share of losing. You site the Yankees as the biggest culprit in "buying" championships, but how have they done in that 30 year period you reference? Other than the 5 year period in the 90's (they won 4 out of 5 years), they have won ONE other time.

That also has NOTHING to do with the NFL and the Rams being one of the annual bottom feeders. If anything , the salary cap, and the built in parity which is the very definition of what the NFL strives for, just exaggerates the point in the Rams case. They were one of many examples of "worst to first" that exists in the NFL, and yet, be it in the 90's or this latest decade of futility, they just can't seem to get out of their own way. But yet, teams like SF, New England, Pittsburgh, Green Bay can somehow figure out the formula to be contenders year in and year out. The same opportunity is there for the Rams. And to somehow insinuate the salary structure of the Cardinals coaching staff somehow tilts things in their favor, when ignoring the Rams coaching staff is among the highest in the NFL, to me is cherry picking and not even privy to this discussion.

The BIGGEST advantage if you ask me the Cardinals enjoy over most of the competitors is stability. They have had TWO Managers in the last 20 years. They have had TWO GM's in that same time period. They have an organizational philosophy that is clearly defined, and they stick to it. If and when the Rams get to the point where they aren't a revolving door of coaches, and constantly in a "rebuild" mode, then maybe they can enjoy some of the same success. So rather than detest the Cardinals for all of their success, and somehow try to imply they have advantages that ANY NFL TEAM doesn't have, I choose to applaud an organization who consistently manages to make wise business decisions, has a top notch scouting department, develops home grown talent and just plain WINS.

 

[Ramrasta]

I think you are ever simplifying the situation drastically. Every year, when you look at the 8 (now 10) teams that make the Playoffs in MLB, there are ALWAYS a mix of high and LOW payroll teams. And BTW, the Cardinals were ranked SEVENTH in the National League this year in payroll. This year you have Oakland, Tampa, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Kansas City way down the list in payroll. You have teams such as the Astros, Rockies, Brewers, Rays who have all had their share of post season appearances. While high payroll teams such as the Red Sox, Dodgers, Cubs, and Angels have had more than their share of losing. You site the Yankees as the biggest culprit in "buying" championships, but how have they done in that 30 year period you reference? Other than the 5 year period in the 90's (they won 4 out of 5 years), they have won ONE other time.

That also has NOTHING to do with the NFL and the Rams being one of the annual bottom feeders. If anything , the salary cap, and the built in parity which is the very definition of what the NFL strives for, just exaggerates the point in the Rams case. They were one of many examples of "worst to first" that exists in the NFL, and yet, be it in the 90's or this latest decade of futility, they just can't seem to get out of their own way. But yet, teams like SF, New England, Pittsburgh, Green Bay can somehow figure out the formula to be contenders year in and year out. The same opportunity is there for the Rams. And to somehow insinuate the salary structure of the Cardinals coaching staff somehow tilts things in their favor, when ignoring the Rams coaching staff is among the highest in the NFL, to me is cherry picking and not even privy to this discussion.

The BIGGEST advantage if you ask me the Cardinals enjoy over most of the competitors is stability. They have had TWO Managers in the last 20 years. They have had TWO GM's in that same time period. They have an organizational philosophy that is clearly defined, and they stick to it. If and when the Rams get to the point where they aren't a revolving door of coaches, and constantly in a "rebuild" mode, then maybe they can enjoy some of the same success. So rather than detest the Cardinals for all of their success, and somehow try to imply they have advantages that ANY NFL TEAM doesn't have, I choose to applaud an organization who consistently manages to make wise business decisions, has a top notch scouting department, develops home grown talent and just plain WINS.

I do agree that stability has a tremendous impact on the success of a franchise. However, having an unequal payroll cannot be factored out here. There will be teams like the Royals who overcome the odds after decades and finally win something meaningful but what are the realistic chances for these teams at the start of a season? There are a "mix" of high and low salary teams in the playoffs but the high salary teams are the ones who repeat appearances while the lower teams fight their way in once every decade or so just because it is statistically sensible that a pair of dice will roll a 7 after many rolls, so to speak. Just because they do make it on scarce occasion does not qualify the system as fair in any way.

As I said before, listing the Cardinals position on the payroll pyramid as a number is very deceiving because of the percentage difference in the payrolls as you continue down the list as well as the division structure in the National League. Also, claiming the Cardinals as 7th and 13th in payroll could only be said for this season, which are relative minimums in comparison to all previous years. I don't feel like its necessary to reiterate why the Cardinals have an advantage but I stand by my above comments.

The Rams now have a highly paid coaching staff but it has not been in place long enough to take full effect and it has been masked by some unfortunate injuries and chemistry issues. It will be key going forward if they are going to restore their relevance. My original purpose for making this argument was to make it clear that parallels between the Rams and Cardinals cannot be drawn because the leagues are so vastly different. If anything, the Cardinals case is much more favorable in comparison even if you adjust every advantage to the absolute least impact. Even if every year they were 13th out of 30 teams, they would maintain a greater statistical chance of winning than a team in a league of 32 teams in a level playing field. If it isn't apparent that these franchises cannot be graded on the same scale then there is no easier way to explain.

The Rams should be supported by fans regardless of the way other hometown teams perform in much the same way as the Cleveland fans. Without fan support, our beloved team is put at a disadvantage and no, there is no excuse.

 

[Sum1]

I don't live there and have no affiliation to the Cards but I am happy they lost.

Why, you ask?

Because every time I tune into 101ESPN on iHeart radio, all I ever heard about is the Cards.

If I tuned in 10 times, I might be lucky to hear a piece about the Rams once.

Now that they lost and are out of it, maybe the media will give the Rams a little more coverage?

At least that's what I'm hoping for.

Of course, it would help if they win Sunday!

This is simply not true. As a fan of all St.Louis sports teams 101 spends easily equal amount of time on the Rams and Cardinals...and much less on the Blues.

I think you are just so in tune to the Rams and don't care about the others that you notice the Cards talk more.

And now that the Cardinal season is over you'll start to hear much less about them than you would otherwise.

 

[Thordaddy]

so as a lurker in the @Ramrasta v @ CoachO debate/ great debate here what do you guys think the fans and press do to undermine if at all the stability of a franchise ,other than the obvious poor attendance ?

 

[den-the-coach]

I only wish the Rams could be as consistent as the Cardinals. IMO the Rams should strive to be that consistent and that good. I also think it's a good thing to have other teams successful in your market because it should be pressure on everyone to be better.

 

[Ramrasta]

so as a lurker in the @Ramrasta v @ CoachO debate/ great debate here what do you guys think the fans and press do to undermine if at all the stability of a franchise ,other than the obvious poor attendance ?

The press plays a big role. They can do a range of things like leaving some teams completely out of their daily coverage making it more difficult for fans to follow the team or even generate controversy in a locker room from potentially false reports.

As for fans of a struggling franchise, if they fail to support their team in the rough times, it also creates controversy. Die hard fans will be trying to pull hope from the ashes but they will have to deal with discouraging words from "fair weather" fans. This might lead to young fans who are not well rooted to search for stability in another franchise. The struggling franchise then feels less support and it becomes increasingly difficult to play through adversity. It's almost like a cycle but it can be broken when fans have something to restore their optimism such as a coaching change, new promising player, etc.

 

[yrba1]

I think you are ever simplifying the situation drastically. Every year, when you look at the 8 (now 10) teams that make the Playoffs in MLB, there are ALWAYS a mix of high and LOW payroll teams. And BTW, the Cardinals were ranked SEVENTH in the National League this year in payroll. This year you have Oakland, Tampa, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Kansas City way down the list in payroll. You have teams such as the Astros, Rockies, Brewers, Rays who have all had their share of post season appearances. While high payroll teams such as the Red Sox, Dodgers, Cubs, and Angels have had more than their share of losing. You site the Yankees as the biggest culprit in "buying" championships, but how have they done in that 30 year period you reference? Other than the 5 year period in the 90's (they won 4 out of 5 years), they have won ONE other time.

The thing about those teams who are/were at the bottom of the payroll is that they need a few years to develop their players from the minor league farms. Once those players are fully developed, they help the bottom-feeders make a nice playoff push but once payday comes for them, the big market teams easily snatch them and it's right back to the drawing board for teams unless they can consistently develop minor league players well (which isn't the case). That's why I don't take baseball seriously and I took great pleasure in seeing the Cardinals lose out of spite against those fairweather St. Louis fans who were unwilling to support the Rams when there was no freakin Cards game and the tickets were cheap.

Disparity is still apparent in baseball, the only difference is that there are small-market teams at the phase where they can make a playoff push thanks to their farm system. The question is whether those teams can meet with long-term success. I gotta give credit to Billy Beane though for allowing sabermetrics to put a dent in some disparity in that league. Based on Back to the Future II, the Cubs are projected to win the World Series while the Marlins and Rays switch leagues.

The BIGGEST advantage if you ask me the Cardinals enjoy over most of the competitors is stability. They have had TWO Managers in the last 20 years. They have had TWO GM's in that same time period. They have an organizational philosophy that is clearly defined, and they stick to it. If and when the Rams get to the point where they aren't a revolving door of coaches, and constantly in a "rebuild" mode, then maybe they can enjoy some of the same success. So rather than detest the Cardinals for all of their success, and somehow try to imply they have advantages that ANY NFL TEAM doesn't have, I choose to applaud an organization who consistently manages to make wise business decisions, has a top notch scouting department, develops home grown talent and just plain WINS.

One thing I can agree on with you. I know Fisher's gotten on our nerves with the way the team's making mistakes but ultimately, we should reap the benefits if this marriage lasts for a long time. He's a good coach and managed to pull us from the shit-tier to mediocre-tier category thus far. I hope he's willing to make some adjustments with his time here to fit today's NFL if we want to see parallelisms between Fisher and Tony La Russa.

 

[CoachO]

The thing about those teams who are/were at the bottom of the payroll is that they need a few years to develop their players from the minor league farms. Once those players are fully developed, they help the bottom-feeders make a nice playoff push but once payday comes for them, the big market teams easily snatch them and it's right back to the drawing board for teams unless they can consistently develop minor league players well (which isn't the case). That's why I don't take baseball seriously and I took great pleasure in seeing the Cardinals lose out of spite against those fairweather St. Louis fans who were unwilling to support the Rams when there was no freakin Cards game and the tickets were cheap.

Disparity is still apparent in baseball, the only difference is that there are small-market teams at the phase where they can make a playoff push thanks to their farm system. The question is whether those teams can meet with long-term success. I gotta give credit to Billy Beane though for allowing sabermetrics to put a dent in some disparity in that league. Based on Back to the Future II, the Cubs are projected to win the World Series while the Marlins and Rays switch leagues.



One thing I can agree on with you. I know Fisher's gotten on our nerves with the way the team's making mistakes but ultimately, we should reap the benefits if this marriage lasts for a long time. He's a good coach and managed to pull us from the crap-tier to mediocre-tier category thus far. I hope he's willing to make some adjustments with his time here to fit today's NFL if we want to see parallelisms between Fisher and Tony La Russa.

I agree with you to an extent about the low budget payroll teams having the ability to hold on to their better players once they develop. This is the one area the Cardinals seem to excel in. When you look at their roster, they are among the best in the league in terms of "homegrown" talent on their roster. They do a great job of scouting, then developing and ultimately keeping the players who contribute to their longterm success. But to call St. Louis a "big market" team IMO, is a stretch. For me, that label should be reserved to the teams who reap the benefits of the obscene TV revenues ie, Yankees, Angels, Dodgers, Braves, Red Sox, Mets and so on. Even the Phillies who are consistently among the highest payrolls in MLB. They are an example of how payroll doesn't translate into "on field" success. Again, I just think its over simplifying things by saying baseball is all about $$$=Playoffs.

The successful teams get it. They are the ones who seems to have the consistent and stable organizations, not necessarily the most $$$. I get that the sports are different. The landscape of each sport couldn't be further apart. But the Cardinals, have managed to navigate their way to decades of success, while not being part of the high rollers market. How that somehow reflects badly on them, as it pertains to having an unfair advantage when compared to the Rams, doesn't make sense to me.

The Rams play in a league that is geared to a level playing field. A SMALL market team such as Green Bay can thrive because they have similar stability and philosophy to that of the Cardinals. Does that mean they have an "unfair" advantage? And "big" market teams such as the Jets, tend to suffer the from the same sort of bungling as we have seen here.

At the end of the day, for me, its about HOW these teams go about their business, the decisions they make on and off the field that have a greater impact on their success or failure. And from where I am sitting, the Cardinals get it, the Rams, not so much. And this is coming from a Rams Season Ticket Holder and someone who supports this team come hell or high water. But facts are facts.

 

[CoachO]

so as a lurker in the @Ramrasta v @ CoachO debate/ great debate here what do you guys think the fans and press do to undermine if at all the stability of a franchise ,other than the obvious poor attendance ?

I think the media can have a much bigger impact. We have seen this play itself out time and time again with the "coverage" the Rams get from the local media. Especially in a city with ONE major newspaper. The tone the writers take with this team is embarrassing at times. And when the fringe fan, continues to read all the negativity, why would they spend their $$$ to support a team coming off the worst stretch in the history of the NFL?

It seems to be a whole lot easier, and ultimately more beneficial for the media to focus on the negative, and find "who's to blame" than it is to find and focus on the things they are doing right. But ultimately, the burden rests with the organization. Get it right on the field, put a competitive product out there week in and week out, and that negative coverage goes away.

 

[Big Willie]

I am a fan of all the professional sports teams in the area, with Rams football being my clear cut favorite. That said, I think the Cardinals have one of the top 5 organizations in baseball, while the Rams have historically had one in the lower half of the NFL (based on draft success, free agent signings, winning percentages and playoff consistency). Since the GSOT era it has been hard to be a Rams fan... Just like it was tough to be a Cards fan in the 70s and a Blues fan in the early 2000s. The die hard, loyal fans follow their teams through thick and thin, but when the front runner fans show up, record attendance emerges to give the perception of fanaticism. Look at the KC Royals (2 years ago you could have gotten a front row ticket for a song) and now the crowds are rabid. The Cleveland Cavaliers are next...their attendance with grow significantly in 2014. And the Rams? If they ever become a quality team....there will be median people (the same ones who talk about us as a baseball town) emphasizing how much we love football. Simply put, build it and they will come.