Schottenheimer

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I believe you've got to give time, but in the same respect some times change is needed too

It may not be the correct move all of the time, but it's still the harsh reality. There certainly is no shortage of players and coordinators who have failed with one team and then went on to succeed with another either. Sometimes it's just not a good fit, or circumstances occur that shorten your shelf-life. Is what it is.

 

[Dodgersrf]

Make Martz wouldn't have been considered a "Mad Genius" without a very good oline.
He would have been considered a madman and fired after one season.

Shurmers' play calling was far from sexy, but it helped keep Bradford on his feet.

I was excited about McDaniels. The problems immediately began when we figured out the the oline couldn't hold their blocks for 5 to 7 step drops. Couple that along with a very young team, which had never played in the system and it failed.
The only guy that knew the system was Lloyd and he looked light years ahead of the other players on offense playing in it.

 

[MrMotes]

You do know they decided to go to a 3-4, right? Granted it was an unprecedented defensive collapse, but that can't be pinned solely on Spagnuolo. They had no head coach, and he didn't have the services of Vilma or Smith. Without those two the Saints lost the first four games. After they were reinstated, the team went 7-5. He also was granted the autonomy to change the philosophy from full attack to read and react - the same philosophy that gave him success in New York. But without the players, and the time to add the ones he needed, he was never going to succeed.

Don't you think having the worst defense in the history of the NFL (by yards) had something to do with the change? Payton hired Spags and then fired him after one season. Payton knew the circumstance, he knew he had been suspended, he knew the intimate workings of the Saints and his first order of business was to fire Spags.

I really don't see a good way to spin Spags' time in New Orleans. He did great things in NY but has been an epic failure ever since...

 

[dieterbrock]

2010: 6 game improvement over previous season, which would quite possibly make him the only "bad" and/or "incompetent" coach ever to do that if we insist he is such.
.

I'm not sure we can give a coach credit for a 6 game improvement when the previous team was one he coached.
Fisher gutted the roster to the tune of 65-70% and took a 14 loss team to 8 losses in one season. Not sure Spags inherited a worse team than Fish.
But to me, Spags will always be remembered for quitting on his team. Punting the ball away to the Giants thus allowing them to just kneel on it was one of the most ridiculous acts I have ever seen.
But yeah, agree to disagree is the way I'll go here too

 

[LesBaker]

As Kevin Demoff said in an earlier chat with us, Bradford (and the offense) really started to grasp the offense going into the Green Bay game. Despite the score in that one, they moved the ball all over the place to the tune of 424 total yards. And then Bradford gets injured and the air came out of the sails. I know McDaniels isn't a popular guy around these parts, but there's no denying he knows how to put an offense together. I agree with you re: the idea that Bradford and McDaniels with an offseason and many fewer collateral injuries would have been a sight to behold. We should also remember that many of the offensive skill position players were rookies with no off-season as well. That's a ridiculous transition into the pros.

When he took the line calls away from Bradford things got better. Bradford was struggling with them and by his own admission was not ready to have that added to the plate. When the C was calling the protections the line got better. It takes awhile to learn an O like that, you cannot get it all down in camp, it just isn't feasible.

 

[LesBaker]

It just occurred to me that Schottenheimer has interviewed for other positions outside of Rams football the last two years. I'm all for a guy trying to better his career situation, however I have to wonder if he just isn't checked out. I know there's plenty of blame on offense to go around but, man, I just have to wonder how invested he is in his current role. Just a thought………..

Schmidty

I don't think it's all that unusual fro guys who are position coaches of OC/DC to talk to other teams. That's how the good old boys network stay in place LOL.

 

[-X-]

Certainly we can agree to disagree.

A couple points: Spags took over a 2 win team and left a 2 win team.

Fisher was so unimpressed with the roster that it's essentially gone now, save a few.

Regardless of all the reasons we can come up with, Spags is going to be remember as one of the worst head coaches in the history of the NFL. Whatever Fisher's legacy ends up being, it will be a lot better than that...

Fisher took over a 7-9 team and left it a 6-10 team. That's what the absence of context tells me.

I also studied Fisher extensively after he was hired, and saw a blip on his record where he went 9-23 over two years so I decided to look into it. Do you know why? There was was injuries over those two years (including the QB and O-line), and the team was in cap trouble which prevented them from signing quality players. The circumstances are eerily similar. And while Fisher may have been unimpressed with the roster, he essentially cleaned out all of the in-season signings and one-year deal players that Spags brought in to cover the injuries and lack of off-season prep time. One could argue that Spags was going to clean them out as well.

But, this has all been done before. So much so that I have everything committed to memory.

 

[MrMotes]

When he took the line calls away from Bradford things got better. Bradford was struggling with them and by his own admission was not ready to have that added to the plate. When the C was calling the protections the line got better. It takes awhile to learn an O like that, you cannot get it all down in camp, it just isn't feasible.

Plus that was the lockout year, not much opportunity before the season to learn...

 

[LesBaker]

Fisher took over a 7-9 team and left it a 6-10 team. That's what the absence of context tells me.

I also studied Fisher extensively after he was hired, and saw a blip on his record where he went 9-23 over two years so I decided to look into it. Do you know why? There was was injuries over those two years (including the QB and O-line), and the team was in cap trouble which prevented them from signing quality players. The circumstances are eerily similar. And while Fisher may have been unimpressed with the roster, he essentially cleaned out all of the in-season signings and one-year deal players that Spags brought in to cover the injuries and lack of off-season prep time. One could argue that Spags was going to clean them out as well.

But, this has all been done before. So much so that I have everything committed to memory.

People also forget that the Titans were in such cap hell that they had to shed several key starters. They had horrific contracts and if I recall they were so far over the cap they had to start the rebuild with cheap talent. One year I recall reading they had over 30 mil of dead money on the cap. It can take a couple of years to b ounce back from that.

 

[LesBaker]

Plus that was the lockout year, not much opportunity before the season to learn...

Good point I had forgotten about that.

 

[Boffo97]

A couple points: Spags took over a 2 win team and left a 2 win team.

Sure, if you ignore the distinction between lack of talent and horrific injuries.

Fisher was so unimpressed with the roster that it's essentially gone now, save a few.

He chose St. Louis over Miami because of the pieces we had in place. It's not just a "few". It's the core. Yes, if you go by player percentage, there's been quite a bit of turnover. But the problem with that approach is that it values some special teams scrub just as much as it values Bradford.

Regardless of all the reasons we can come up with, Spags is going to be remember as one of the worst head coaches in the history of the NFL.

By you and certain others.

 

[dieterbrock]

It may not be the correct move all of the time, but it's still the harsh reality. There certainly is no shortage of players and coordinators who have failed with one team and then went on to succeed with another either. Sometimes it's just not a good fit, or circumstances occur that shorten your shelf-life. Is what it is.

I so agree with this. Getting fired in the NFL isnt akin to you or I (rhetorically speaking) losing our job and carrying a red flag. Many coaches get let go and end up elsewhere. Easy to say that good coaches can make do and fit their scheme with whoever they have, but its not entirely true. Coaches get recycled, and for good reason.

 

[-X-]

Don't you think having the worst defense in the history of the NFL (by yards) had something to do with the change? Payton hired Spags and then fired him after one season. Payton knew the circumstance, he knew he had been suspended, he knew the intimate workings of the Saints and his first order of business was to fire Spags.

I really don't see a good way to spin Spags' time in New Orleans. He did great things in NY but has been an epic failure ever since...

Sure, I think it has something to do with it. As did wanting to change to a 3-4. As did having to make a change to appease the masses. I'm not trying to put a good spin on what happened there, in as much as I'm trying to illustrate why it went that way.

 

[Dodgersrf]

Fisher took over a 7-9 team and left it a 6-10 team. That's what the absence of context tells me.

I also studied Fisher extensively after he was hired, and saw a blip on his record where he went 9-23 over two years so I decided to look into it. Do you know why? There was was injuries over those two years (including the QB and O-line), and the team was in cap trouble which prevented them from signing quality players. The circumstances are eerily similar. And while Fisher may have been unimpressed with the roster, he essentially cleaned out all of the in-season signings and one-year deal players that Spags brought in to cover the injuries and lack of off-season prep time. One could argue that Spags was going to clean them out as well.

But, this has all been done before. So much so that I have everything committed to memory.

A very important inclusion to consider, is that Fisher has much more say in personell compared to Spags.

 

[-X-]

People also forget that the Titans were in such cap hell that they had to shed several key starters. They had horrific contracts and if I recall they were so far over the cap they had to start the rebuild with cheap talent. One year I recall reading they had over 30 mil of dead money on the cap. It can take a couple of years to b ounce back from that.

Yup. Through all that he went 9-23. So did Spags in 2010-2011. It's unfortunate that Spags had to endure the 2009 season, because that's the nail in his coffin when people assess his overall record. Unfairly, IMO, because that was a cluster fuck of a season for a myriad of reasons. Keith Null (lol) as your starter? Yeah, you're doomed.

 

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A very important inclusion to consider, is that Fisher has much more say in personell compared to Spags.

I don't know if that's entirely true, but he certainly has/had more options.

 

[Dodgersrf]

I don't know if that's entirely true, but he certainly has/had more options.

It seems that Fisher has more pull on draft day than Spags had.
Also, it seems rare that the coach is hired before the GM. I can't remember seeing a coach involved in the decision process of hiring his boss.

 

[dieterbrock]

It seems that Fisher has more pull on draft day than Spags had.
Also, it seems rare that the coach is hired before the GM. I can't remember seeing a coach involved in the decision process of hiring his boss.

I dont agree with this or the idea that he had less pull with FA aquisitions. How many former Eagles made there way to St Louis? And the four pillars deal?
I think Spags had a tough road to hoe, and it does get overlooked by his detractors (me being one of them), but the assertion that he had any less input than Fish? That dog wont hunt

 

[-X-]

It seems that Fisher has more pull on draft day than Spags had.
Also, it seems rare that the coach is hired before the GM. I can't remember seeing a coach involved in the decision process of hiring his boss.

True. I also think he has more influence than Spags in the draft.
I was talking about roster management. I think they both held equal influence over that.

 

[Dodgersrf]

True. I also think he has more influence than Spags in the draft.
I was talking about roster management. I think they both held equal influence over that.

I'm with you on that.