Schottenheimer

[MrMotes]

In the NFL, most everyone gets fired eventually...

That's true. But in the case of Holmgren and Spags, it came pretty close to having their team run Pat Shurmur's offense and no one has tried it since, not yet anyway...

 

[dieterbrock]

That's true. But in the case of Holmgren and Spags, it came pretty close to having their team run Pat Shurmur's offense and no one has tried it since, not yet anyway...

I thought Shurm was the straw that stirred the drink in Philly??

 

[Angry Ram]

Shurmur was the OC of the offense under which Bradford was rookie of the year. There were people out there who obviously counted that as success.

Yeah and then fans got their wish, upgraded with an "innovative and creative" play caller with Josh McDaniels.

Then the cycle repeated itself, the one that started 8 years ago.

 

[Bluesy]

All those rumors about Sanchez not wanting to come to the Rams once bradford went down? Well, they were probably for a reason considering he played under Schotty.

 

[dieterbrock]

Yeah and then fans got their wish, upgraded with an "innovative and creative" play caller with Josh McDaniels.

Then the cycle repeated itself, the one that started 8 years ago.

I am not embarassed to admit that despite my relief in seeing Spags fired, I sure would have loved to have seen Bradford play a full season after a full pre season/Training camp in the McD offense.

 

[dieterbrock]

All those rumors about Sanchez not wanting to come to the Rams once bradford went down? Well, they were probably for a reason considering he played under Schotty.

I dont think Sanchez was opposed to the Rams any more than he was opposed to being traded anywhere. Im thinking this scenario that he is in is exactly the scenario he was hoping for

 

[-X-]

I am not embarassed to admit that despite my relief in seeing Spags fired, I sure would have loved to have seen Bradford play a full season after a full pre season/Training camp in the McD offense.

As Kevin Demoff said in an earlier chat with us, Bradford (and the offense) really started to grasp the offense going into the Green Bay game. Despite the score in that one, they moved the ball all over the place to the tune of 424 total yards. And then Bradford gets injured and the air came out of the sails. I know McDaniels isn't a popular guy around these parts, but there's no denying he knows how to put an offense together. I agree with you re: the idea that Bradford and McDaniels with an offseason and many fewer collateral injuries would have been a sight to behold. We should also remember that many of the offensive skill position players were rookies with no off-season as well. That's a ridiculous transition into the pros.

 

[Boffo97]

That's true. But in the case of Holmgren and Spags, it came pretty close to having their team run Pat Shurmur's offense and no one has tried it since, not yet anyway...

I was hoping to not have to get into this again... but the thing with Shurmur is this. Everyone got on him for being really conservative. The word "cowardly" was even thrown around. People were absolutely sure that we needed someone "brave" enough to open up the offense. Then McDaniels came and proved that wasn't the case. We still had big talent holes on offense and needed to be conservative to cover those holes and be successful.

I'm not saying Shurmur was perfect or that I want him back, but he's one of those guys that gets a lot more hate than he deserves IMO. And so is Spags, again IMO.

 

[MrMotes]

I thought Shurm was the straw that stirred the drink in Philly??

Oh yeah, big time.

Ironically, if Shurmur can become a real Kelly disciple and abandon his version of the WCO, he probably will get to be a play caller again. Like Sanchez, his time with Kelly may rehabilitate and revive his career.

 

[MrMotes]

I was hoping to not have to get into this again... but the thing with Shurmur is this. Everyone got on him for being really conservative. The word "cowardly" was even thrown around. People were absolutely sure that we needed someone "brave" enough to open up the offense. Then McDaniels came and proved that wasn't the case. We still had big talent holes on offense and needed to be conservative to cover those holes and be successful.

I'm not saying Shurmur was perfect or that I want him back, but he's one of those guys that gets a lot more hate than he deserves IMO. And so is Spags, again IMO.

And i strongly disagree. Whereas McD has been very successful away from the Rams, Spags and Shurmur did nothing but fail since leaving us. I doubt anyone will want to ever run Shurmur's WCO again but maybe if he can pickup the Kelly offense he'll get another shot at calling plays. Spags, who knows if he'll ever get to be a coordinator again after back to back debacles in St. Louis and New Orleans?

 

[-X-]

I was hoping to not have to get into this again... but the thing with Shurmur is this. Everyone got on him for being really conservative. The word "cowardly" was even thrown around. People were absolutely sure that we needed someone "brave" enough to open up the offense. Then McDaniels came and proved that wasn't the case. We still had big talent holes on offense and needed to be conservative to cover those holes and be successful.

I'm not saying Shurmur was perfect or that I want him back, but he's one of those guys that gets a lot more hate than he deserves IMO. And so is Spags, again IMO.

I was a Spags fan too. Putting aside all of his idiosyncrasies and references to "Reggie" in his pressers, he really did start to right the ship around here. It's so easy to point to the 1-15 record and add it into his resume without context, but good lord what a shit storm that was. No free agency, no QBs, no O-line, no receivers, etc. And then with a rookie QB he improves upon his win total by 6 games and one missed pass away from the playoffs. 2011, if anyone bothered to really analyse it, was an impossible feat. 10 corners? Teams don't even carry that many into camp. ONE offensive lineman starting and finishing the season as a starter (Dahl). No offseason with a new coordinator and rookie receivers. QB goes down in week 6. It was borderline ridiculous. Even if he won 4 or 5 more games, I don't think he would have been around anyway. Once Fisher became available, Kroenke's ears perked up.

And mentioning his stint in New Orleans as his failure, after they completely changed up their scheme to fit his philosophy without the benefit of the players or the head coach, is also short-sighted at best.

 

[Boffo97]

And i strongly disagree. Whereas McD has been very successful away from the Rams, Spags and Shurmur did nothing but fail since leaving us. I doubt anyone will want to ever run Shurmur's WCO again but maybe if he can pickup the Kelly offense he'll get another shot at calling plays. Spags, who knows if he'll ever get to be a coordinator again after back to back debacles in St. Louis and New Orleans?

And you're entitled to that opinion, as is anyone else who holds it or a similar opinion, even though I disagree.

Spags I think mainly had bad luck hitting the injury-plagued 2011 just after having the team going from 1-15 to 7-9 in one season, then going from there to DC of a Saints team that got horribly derailed by Bountygate coming out.

 

[Angry Ram]

I am not embarassed to admit that despite my relief in seeing Spags fired, I sure would have loved to have seen Bradford play a full season after a full pre season/Training camp in the McD offense.

Whether you wanted him to stay or not, and w/e anyone's feeling towards Josh were, 3 years later we're still talking about the OC.

Doesn't that say something to anyone else? Of all the issues that surround a team through a season, the replacement of one guy every 2 years or so that stands on the sidelines calling plays will magically change anything? Hasn't happened yet.

Sam Bradford has his best year in the league in 2012. And 2013 was going to be even better. Brian Quick was off to his best start. The team has won games and at the very least played competitively despite having 2nd and 3rd string QBs in most every game!

To me, that says the offense is working but other issues (injuries and lack of experience) are holding it back.

 

[MrMotes]

And you're entitled to that opinion, as is anyone else who holds it or a similar opinion, even though I disagree.

Spags I think mainly had bad luck hitting the injury-plagued 2011 just after having the team going from 1-15 to 7-9 in one season, then going from there to DC of a Saints team that got horribly derailed by Bountygate coming out.

If anyone would know what a tough situation Spags had in New Orleans it would be the guy who hired him: Asshole Face. And Payton fired Spags the second his suspension was over...

 

[dieterbrock]

As Kevin Demoff said in an earlier chat with us, Bradford (and the offense) really started to grasp the offense going into the Green Bay game. Despite the score in that one, they moved the ball all over the place to the tune of 424 total yards. And then Bradford gets injured and the air came out of the sails. I know McDaniels isn't a popular guy around these parts, but there's no denying he knows how to put an offense together. I agree with you re: the idea that Bradford and McDaniels with an offseason and many fewer collateral injuries would have been a sight to behold. We should also remember that many of the offensive skill position players were rookies with no off-season as well. That's a ridiculous transition into the pros.

9 of 11 drives in that game ended in Green Bay territory, only one 3 and out overall.
Just wow.

 

[-X-]

If anyone would know what a tough situation Spags had in New Orleans it would be the guy who hired him: Asshole Face. And Payton fired Spags the second his suspension was over...

You do know they decided to go to a 3-4, right? Granted it was an unprecedented defensive collapse, but that can't be pinned solely on Spagnuolo. They had no head coach, and he didn't have the services of Vilma or Smith. Without those two the Saints lost the first four games. After they were reinstated, the team went 7-5. He also was granted the autonomy to change the philosophy from full attack to read and react - the same philosophy that gave him success in New York. But without the players, and the time to add the ones he needed, he was never going to succeed.

 

[Boffo97]

If anyone would know what a tough situation Spags had in New Orleans it would be the guy who hired him: Asshole Face. And Payton fired Spags the second his suspension was over...

Well, for the most part, how Spags did for the Saints is really irrelevant to me for the question of how good he was for the Rams. And what I see for the Rams is this:

2009: Inherits nothing except for Steven Jackson, a green Chris Long and an already Bulgerized Bulger. Anyone was going to fail.
2010: 6 game improvement over previous season, which would quite possibly make him the only "bad" and/or "incompetent" coach ever to do that if we insist he is such.
2011: As -X- went into above better than me, season was decimated by injuries, particularly to CBs and OL. Anyone was going to fail.

If Fisher is fired after this season (which is improbable I admit), I would rate Spags higher than Fisher. Fisher took a team that was 7-9 before an injury decimated season, and has kept them 7-9 since. And that's with the RGIII megadeal that was only made possible by a rule change after Spags was gone. (I bet Spags' immediate reaction to the reduced rookie salaries was to wish they had them in 2009.)

But we can agree to disagree on this.

 

[-X-]

9 of 11 drives in that game ended in Green Bay territory, only one 3 and out overall.
Just wow.

Yeah, they were moving the ball really well. You could still tell that they weren't even close to being on the same page with sight adjustments (a stable of JM's offense), but they were being schemed open for a majority of that game.

 

[dieterbrock]

Whether you wanted him to stay or not, and w/e anyone's feeling towards Josh were, 3 years later we're still talking about the OC.

Doesn't that say something to anyone else? Of all the issues that surround a team through a season, the replacement of one guy every 2 years or so that stands on the sidelines calling plays will magically change anything? Hasn't happened yet.

Sam Bradford has his best year in the league in 2012. And 2013 was going to be even better. Brian Quick was off to his best start. The team has won games and at the very least played competitively despite having 2nd and 3rd string QBs in most every game!

To me, that says the offense is working but other issues (injuries and lack of experience) are holding it back.

Not sure what you mean exactly
I was a big time Bradford supporter, but after countless OC and similar results, I was ready to move on
I was a Schottenhiemer supporter, but now after several seasons of simialr results to his other stop, I would be ok if they moved on from him
I believe you've got to give time, but in the same respect some times change is needed too

 

[MrMotes]

Well, for the most part, how Spags did for the Saints is really irrelevant to me for the question of how good he was for the Rams. And what I see for the Rams is this:

2009: Inherits nothing except for Steven Jackson, a green Chris Long and an already Bulgerized Bulger. Anyone was going to fail.
2010: 6 game improvement over previous season, which would quite possibly make him the only "bad" and/or "incompetent" coach ever to do that if we insist he is such.
2011: As -X- went into above better than me, season was decimated by injuries, particularly to CBs and OL. Anyone was going to fail.

If Fisher is fired after this season (which is improbable I admit), I would rate Spags higher than Fisher. Fisher took a team that was 7-9 before an injury decimated season, and has kept them 7-9 since. And that's with the RGIII megadeal that was only made possible by a rule change after Spags was gone. (I bet Spags' immediate reaction to the reduced rookie salaries was to wish they had them in 2009.)

But we can agree to disagree on this.

Certainly we can agree to disagree.

A couple points: Spags took over a 2 win team and left a 2 win team.

Fisher was so unimpressed with the roster that it's essentially gone now, save a few.

Regardless of all the reasons we can come up with, Spags is going to be remember as one of the worst head coaches in the history of the NFL. Whatever Fisher's legacy ends up being, it will be a lot better than that...