Raiders’ Vegas stadium could hit hurdle

[FaulkSF]

Just sin baby!
- Mark Davis

 

[OldSchool]

Vegas is full of convention centers. How many more events will they get with a $1.8 billion facility, as opposed to a $1 billion facility, as opposed to just using what they already have? I'm sure a lot of the business will just be cannibalized from facilities they already have, facilities actually designed and optimized for conventions, as opposed to something designed and optimized for football use. I doubt there will be much traffic that Vegas wouldn't already have. EVERY stadium is justified by all the new business it will supposedly bring, but study after study done by independent researchers show that the new business is minimal. If there is going to be an economic boost by that spending, it's more efficient to spend it in non-stadium ways. In Tempe, AZ for instance, the Cardinals were supposed to build a stadium on a subsidized piece of land. It fell through for various reasons (fortunately) and the Cardinals went to Glendale. Meanwhile for minimal subsidization the Tempe land was used for retail, especially for an Ikea, for more jobs and a far larger boost in tax collections.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convention_centers_in_the_Las_Vegas_Valley
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/sports-jobs-taxes-are-new-stadiums-worth-the-cost/

One thing you aren't considering is the fact that this stadium will also house the UNLV football and soccer teams. Their current stadium is Sam Boyd Stadium and is such a run down piece of junk it rivals the Oakland Coliseum. In addition to hosting the college team it does have numerous sporting events year round. While I've made my stance clear on stadium funding, this is another stadium that is a joint venture. Vegas truly does need a stadium for it college, yes they could have gotten away cheaper, but they likely weren't able to get funding without the joint venture.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I didn't realize Vegas had a tourist shortage. They don't need the Raiders. Davis should pay for the stadium if he wants to move. If they are bent on building a stadium there is no need for it to be 1.8 billion dollars. These projects always seem to run over too.

Football in Vegas is a bad idea anyway. I am sure the casinos love the idea of having young men fresh out of college and millions in the bank taking up residency there. It's a bad formula for the players though. And what happens when the newness wears off? If I go to Vegas, it won't be to watch the Raiders.

 

[“Turbo set!”]

Raiders and NFL are paying over half the cost of the stadium. Wonder what the infrastructure cost will be.

 

[Akrasian]

One thing you aren't considering is the fact that this stadium will also house the UNLV football and soccer teams. Their current stadium is Sam Boyd Stadium and is such a run down piece of junk it rivals the Oakland Coliseum. In addition to hosting the college team it does have numerous sporting events year round. While I've made my stance clear on stadium funding, this is another stadium that is a joint venture. Vegas truly does need a stadium for it college, yes they could have gotten away cheaper, but they likely weren't able to get funding without the joint venture.

UNLV doesn't sell out their current stadium normally - and the new location is further from campus, isn't it? And I doubt soccer needs a stadium near as large as the new one.

The cost of renovation would likely have been less than the cost of infrastructure upgrades for the new one. Leaving $750 million in bonds to be paid for by the taxpayers as a gift to the Raiders.

Now, a cheaper stadium could have been built, and the Raiders would likely still have come - they had burned bridges everywhere else. Instead, it's yet another boondoggle. One shown to be unnecessary, I might add, by the Rams' new stadium being built by the Rams.

 

[SteezyEndo]

UNLV doesn't sell out their current stadium normally - and the new location is further from campus, isn't it? And I doubt soccer needs a stadium near as large as the new one.

The cost of renovation would likely have been less than the cost of infrastructure upgrades for the new one. Leaving $750 million in bonds to be paid for by the taxpayers as a gift to the Raiders.

Now, a cheaper stadium could have been built, and the Raiders would likely still have come - they had burned bridges everywhere else. Instead, it's yet another boondoggle. One shown to be unnecessary, I might add, by the Rams' new stadium being built by the Rams.

Reality is that people rather drive from LA to LV than OAK.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

He's a major under dog in just his party. He's probably taking this stance to stir things up and trolling for votes.

Probably why he is going for a different angle. Saving taxpayers dollars by promising to block the stadium should put him firmly in contention.

However, with casinos backing the push for the stadium it will go through anyway.

 

[OldSchool]

Probably why he is going for a different angle. Saving taxpayers dollars by promising to block the stadium should put him firmly in contention.

However, with casinos backing the push for the stadium it will go through anyway.

Actually he's probably hurting his case. He's telling tax payers yeah you paid for over half this stadium but I don't like it so you get no roads to the stadium to enjoy what you paid. He's acting like a spoiled child who's taking his toys home and not letting anybody share them with him.

 

[VegasRam]

Probably why he is going for a different angle. Saving taxpayers dollars by promising to block the stadium should put him firmly in contention.

However, with casinos backing the push for the stadium it will go through anyway.

Casinos weren't really behind the stadium at all. One casino owner, Adelson, wanted a piece, and drove it a bit, but in the end ended up out of the picture.

I guess anything that brings people to Vegas benefits the Casinos, but the 10-20,000 that may come to town 8 out of 52 weeks a year is really a drop in the bucket.

Also, Schwartz is Nevada's republican version of Bernie Sanders.

@Akrasian - the existing stadium is a glorified high school field, seats 25,000, has dirt parking lots, and is 15 miles away from the UNLV campus. The new stadium is less than a mile.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Actually he's probably hurting his case. He's telling tax payers yeah you paid for over half this stadium but I don't like it so you get no roads to the stadium to enjoy what you paid. He's acting like a spoiled child who's taking his toys home and not letting anybody share them with him.

I thought his point was that by refusing infrastructure there wouldn’t be a 2 billion dollar stadium. I don’t think they could run all of the required plumbing on wells and septic tanks.

If he were elected and could refuse infrastructure it would give him power to negotiate for a less costly stadium.

 

[LesBaker]

One thing you aren't considering is the fact that this stadium will also house the UNLV football and soccer teams.

That will be the counter if this turd gets elected. There will be such heavy political pressure/pushback that he will be forced to back down and look like a fool.

Saving taxpayers dollars by promising to block the stadium should put him firmly in contention.

He's a longshot to get elevted so he's spouting off like politicians do when they are on the fringes.

He's acting like a spoiled child who's taking his toys home and not letting anybody share them with him.

See above, he's making a play for some fre publicity and hoping that the local TV and radio stations line up to hear about the controversy so he can use that time to campaign.

It disgusts me.

But this is the state of politics these days. Incendiary comment to draw attention then add more.

 

[OldSchool]

I thought his point was that by refusing infrastructure there wouldn’t be a 2 billion dollar stadium. I don’t think they could run all of the required plumbing on wells and septic tanks.

If he were elected and could refuse infrastructure it would give him power to negotiate for a less costly stadium.

Nope, he’s said he can’t stop the stadium construction that has all been funded and legally passed. His complaint is there was no accounting for road/freeway additions and he won’t do anything about it. So in his book they’ll build this beautiful stadium and have a two lane road and no freeway access.

 

[Merlin]

Vegas is full of convention centers. How many more events will they get with a $1.8 billion facility, as opposed to a $1 billion facility, as opposed to just using what they already have? I'm sure a lot of the business will just be cannibalized from facilities they already have, facilities actually designed and optimized for conventions, as opposed to something designed and optimized for football use. I doubt there will be much traffic that Vegas wouldn't already have. EVERY stadium is justified by all the new business it will supposedly bring, but study after study done by independent researchers show that the new business is minimal. If there is going to be an economic boost by that spending, it's more efficient to spend it in non-stadium ways. In Tempe, AZ for instance, the Cardinals were supposed to build a stadium on a subsidized piece of land. It fell through for various reasons (fortunately) and the Cardinals went to Glendale. Meanwhile for minimal subsidization the Tempe land was used for retail, especially for an Ikea, for more jobs and a far larger boost in tax collections.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convention_centers_in_the_Las_Vegas_Valley
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/sports-jobs-taxes-are-new-stadiums-worth-the-cost/

Vegas is the city of dreams my friend. Build big and go for broke. If they subscribed to your logic there never would have been a city built in the middle of the desert on the hopes and dreams of Americans in the first place. We don't do safe out here.

Convention centers book up like crazy out here too. Not to mention that the things you can do with a stadium are endless, and as cities go Vegas is an outlier in that way.

I'm telling you... I bought a house here 5 years ago. I commute to/from Cali for my job and for the past two years I have seen increased traffic to/from Vegas to the point where the place is jammed now on just about every weekend. The place is packing in tourists, every time I go downtown to dinner with the family it's nuts now. Even the typical "local" areas and bars are being flooded with tourists now which really irritates me tbh.

One thing you aren't considering is the fact that this stadium will also house the UNLV football and soccer teams. Their current stadium is Sam Boyd Stadium and is such a run down piece of junk it rivals the Oakland Coliseum. In addition to hosting the college team it does have numerous sporting events year round. While I've made my stance clear on stadium funding, this is another stadium that is a joint venture. Vegas truly does need a stadium for it college, yes they could have gotten away cheaper, but they likely weren't able to get funding without the joint venture.

No doubt. What is funny is MLS turned their nose up at the city in spite of a stadium that was funded and ready to be built if they were awarded a team. It was pre-Knights, back when everyone had an opinion about how Vegas couldn't support a pro team. But for anyone who still thinks that, take a look at the Knights. Their practice facility is world class, just down the street from my house, and the fans pack it in even for their practices, where the team gets a standing ovation for most of its practices man. It's just nuts.

Knights pack in not only local fans, but fans of other teams who come see their team play and plan the holiday in Vegas around it. It's a different deal. I think the sports leagues in general view Vegas completely differently now than they did a few years ago because of it. And they should IMO.

 

[nighttrain]

all the hubbub about nothing, this is an NFL issue and it will happen as planned
train

 

[Akrasian]

@Akrasian - the existing stadium is a glorified high school field, seats 25,000, has dirt parking lots, and is 15 miles away from the UNLV campus. The new stadium is less than a mile.

According to the website http://www.samboydstadium.com/history/ seating is 40,000. Which makes sense, since UNLV claims average home attendance is just over 29,000 http://www.unlvrebels.com/sponsorship/img-numbers.html . I didn't know the location - closer to campus is a plus, though not a billion dollar one once the contribution to stadium construction plus infrastructure is factored in. They could renovate Sam Boyd for far less than the infrastructure costs alone for the new stadium. Or they could have a token help for the new stadium (paying for site studies, things like that) plus infrastructure, the Raiders could get a nicer stadium than they've had between their contribution and the NFL's contribution, and the tax payers wouldn't be screwed subsidizing a very profitable business.

 

[Akrasian]

Vegas is the city of dreams my friend. Build big and go for broke. If they subscribed to your logic there never would have been a city built in the middle of the desert on the hopes and dreams of Americans in the first place. We don't do safe out here.

Of course, Vegas wasn't built on taxpayer subsidies, but private (laundered money) investments. And if the stadium makes sense, especially in its elaborate version, then it can be built without massive subsidies. You know, like in LA.

 

[VegasRam]

According to the website http://www.samboydstadium.com/history/ seating is 40,000. Which makes sense, since UNLV claims average home attendance is just over 29,000 http://www.unlvrebels.com/sponsorship/img-numbers.html . I didn't know the location - closer to campus is a plus, though not a billion dollar one once the contribution to stadium construction plus infrastructure is factored in. They could renovate Sam Boyd for far less than the infrastructure costs alone for the new stadium. Or they could have a token help for the new stadium (paying for site studies, things like that) plus infrastructure, the Raiders could get a nicer stadium than they've had between their contribution and the NFL's contribution, and the tax payers wouldn't be screwed subsidizing a very profitable business.

Ever heard the saying "Don't believe everything you read". Stadium is "expandable" to 35,000.

Also, if the UNLV football team has averaged 10,000 fans per game in the 30 years I've lived here, I'd be amazed.
They are flat out lying - ask anybody lives here.

And newsflash - if you're the NFL, you don't "renovate" a 50 year old high school field. Actually, the $750,000,000 is coming from tourists in the form of hotel taxes. You can roll your eyes all you want, but facts are facts.

I do agree with you on the cost - US Bank Stadium is absolutely fantastic in my opinion, and it came in at $1B dollars - but they are not rolling the field in and out.

 

[Akrasian]

Ever heard the saying "Don't believe everything you read". Stadium is "expandable" to 35,000.

Also, if the UNLV football team has averaged 10,000 fans per game in the 30 years I've lived here, I'd be amazed.
They are flat out lying - ask anybody lives here.

And newsflash - if you're the NFL, you don't "renovate" a 50 year old high school field. Actually, the $750,000,000 is coming from tourists in the form of hotel taxes. You can roll your eyes all you want, but facts are facts.

I do agree with you on the cost - US Bank Stadium is absolutely fantastic in my opinion, and it came in at $1B dollars - but they are not rolling the field in and out.

I'm talking about for UNLV - not for the Raiders. The Raiders can build whatever they are willing to pay for.

And if UNLV does not even average 10k - then they do not need a new football stadium at taxpayer expense. So their using the new stadium shouldn't enter into the calculation. Let the Raiders pay for the stadium, and if it makes financial sense for the Raiders and UNLV to strike a deal, great.

In terms of it being a hotel tax - many visitors - including conventions - do budget expenses, including the real cost of hotel rooms. So either they spend less on other things while there, or may decide to go elsewhere, or decide to go to Vegas less often. Not just the ones being allegedly attracted by the new stadium, but ALL visitors. If you charge visitors more to stay, they tend to spend a little less, either on that trip or on taking fewer future trips. Net effect - money that would go into locals' pockets goes into the Raiders pockets. A subsidy.

 

[VegasRam]

OK - missed that. Totally agree about UNLV, except that in the way a rising tide raises all boats, having access to the stadium might help UNLV football become a relevant.

As far as the butterfly effect from hotel prices, that's just conjecture on your part, which is always fun, but not factual.
And you totally ignore money going into locals pockets generated by the stadium. You have an agenda and are simply bending facts to support it, which is your right.

Plus, like @Merlin said - it's Vegas Baby! - it's how we do stuff!:rolllaugh: