Proposed extra point rule

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Should extra points be kicked from the 15?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 34 43.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 37 46.8%
  • I don't know. Is it gay?

    Votes: 8 10.1%

  • Total voters
    79

moklerman

Warner-phile
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
2,185
Hey dude, it's one thing to make changes for the good of the game, but to make pointless changes just for the sake of making changes has always been stupid to me. More games per season = more revenue for the league. The forward pass = a huge innovation to the game drawing more casual fan interest. More teams = more revenue AND more interest. The color thing = more talented and exciting players. So please explain to me how moving the EP back to the 15 yard line is going to make some HUGE improvement to the game? Have you ever heard the term, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it?"
Ever heard the term "missing the point"? How does moving the XP back hurt the game? How is the XP being virtually automatic help the game? All of the, albeit extreme, examples I gave were met with the same resistance when they were introduced as well.

What about the 14 game season or the 16 game season? Just as many people got all twisted out of shape about those changes. Heck, just a couple of years ago the 2 point conversion was met with a lot of skepticism and resistance. There is always going to be someone squawking about the sanctity of the game but the fact is, the game has been fluid pretty much since it's inception.

And who says that the longer XP has to be a "huge" improvement to the game? What if it's just a slight improvement? Wouldn't it still be worth doing? And who says the XP "a'int broke"? It's boring and essentially pointless in it's current form. Other than not liking change, what's your argument for keeping it? Moving it back would make it not automatic and increase the value of special teams/the kicker. I think that alone warrants consideration.
 

Thordaddy

Binding you with ancient logic
Joined
Apr 5, 2012
Messages
10,462
Name
Rich
I think we could ask,do you watch the extra point now? or do you get up and run to the fridge?I don't watch it, if they move it back I will,for the obvious reasons.
I think it'll hurt concession sales
 

moklerman

Warner-phile
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
2,185
I think we could ask,do you watch the extra point now? or do you get up and run to the fridge?I don't watch it, if they move it back I will,for the obvious reasons.
I think it'll hurt concession sales
Exactly. I actually like what Arena League does. The NFL doesn't get and doesn't have everything right. Look how long it took them to modify the pushout rule on receptions. I don't mind them constantly trying to make the game better as long as it actually does do that. With the XP, I see no real defense of keeping it the way that it is. It's very antiquated and based on technology and skill from MANY decades ago. If Pat Summerall and Lou Groza were still out there toe-punching XP's, okay fine. Keep it the same. But these guys today don't even need to be healthy to kick an extra point.
 

dieterbrock

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Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
24,275
I think they ought to make right footed kickers kick the extra point with their left foot. Now that would make it fun
 

reggae

Guest
W
Unless the chance of hitting that drop kick is 100% (or close) it would be a pointless addition, you would still always go for the 2.
considering the sucess rate of a 30 yard field goal os considerably higher than that of a 2 point conversion. I beloeve you may be mistaken. The risk/reward is still too high.
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
5,808
W

considering the sucess rate of a 30 yard field goal os considerably higher than that of a 2 point conversion. I beloeve you may be mistaken. The risk/reward is still too high.

The chance of a 33 yard field goal (going off success rate over the last few years) is 77%, so the expected value is 0.77 points, the success rate of a 2 point conversion is nearly 50% (233-234 since 2005) giving an expected value of 1 point (or 0.997 if your being picky). Over time it only make sense to go for the 2 point conversion.

The only time it makes sense to go for 1 point is when the value of 1 point is "equal" to the value of 2 points i.e. late in the game when 1 point will tie it or put you ahead, you should take the more likely event.

Of cause that assumes you have an average kicker and an average O.
 

TommerK

Rockin' Rams Fan
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
75
Name
Tom
Ever heard the term "missing the point"? How does moving the XP back hurt the game? How is the XP being virtually automatic help the game? All of the, albeit extreme, examples I gave were met with the same resistance when they were introduced as well.

What about the 14 game season or the 16 game season? Just as many people got all twisted out of shape about those changes. Heck, just a couple of years ago the 2 point conversion was met with a lot of skepticism and resistance. There is always going to be someone squawking about the sanctity of the game but the fact is, the game has been fluid pretty much since it's inception.

And who says that the longer XP has to be a "huge" improvement to the game? What if it's just a slight improvement? Wouldn't it still be worth doing? And who says the XP "a'int broke"? It's boring and essentially pointless in it's current form. Other than not liking change, what's your argument for keeping it? Moving it back would make it not automatic and increase the value of special teams/the kicker. I think that alone warrants consideration.
OK, fair enough. You have your opinion, I have mine. I voted no, you voted yes. Not a big deal. Its' not like we have to convince one another of each others decision.

GO RAMS!!!!!
 

-X-

Medium-sized Lebowski
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Messages
35,576
Name
The Dude
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #68
Ever heard the term "missing the point"? How does moving the XP back hurt the game? How is the XP being virtually automatic help the game? All of the, albeit extreme, examples I gave were met with the same resistance when they were introduced as well.

What about the 14 game season or the 16 game season? Just as many people got all twisted out of shape about those changes. Heck, just a couple of years ago the 2 point conversion was met with a lot of skepticism and resistance. There is always going to be someone squawking about the sanctity of the game but the fact is, the game has been fluid pretty much since it's inception.

And who says that the longer XP has to be a "huge" improvement to the game? What if it's just a slight improvement? Wouldn't it still be worth doing? And who says the XP "a'int broke"? It's boring and essentially pointless in it's current form. Other than not liking change, what's your argument for keeping it? Moving it back would make it not automatic and increase the value of special teams/the kicker. I think that alone warrants consideration.
Easy, dude. It's just an opinion poll. Nobody's "wrong" in those instances.
 

moklerman

Warner-phile
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
2,185
Easy, dude. It's just an opinion poll. Nobody's "wrong" in those instances.
Never said he was wrong but I'd like him to support his opinion. If he wants to get snarky, I can do that too.
 

reggae

Guest
The chance of a 33 yard field goal (going off success rate over the last few years) is 77%, so the expected value is 0.77 points, the success rate of a 2 point conversion is nearly 50% (233-234 since 2005) giving an expected value of 1 point (or 0.997 if your being picky). Over time it only make sense to go for the 2 point conversion.

The only time it makes sense to go for 1 point is when the value of 1 point is "equal" to the value of 2 points i.e. late in the game when 1 point will tie it or put you ahead, you should take the more likely event.

Of cause that assumes you have an average kicker and an average O.
I don't know where you are getting your stats from. 2 point conversions sound about right. But fiel goals 30-39 yards were successful >90% in 2013. According to espn
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2013
Messages
5,808
I don't know where you are getting your stats from. 2 point conversions sound about right. But fiel goals 30-39 yards were successful >90% in 2013. According to espn

33 yard attempts:
Screen Shot 2014-08-23 at 17.42.37.png

30-40 yard attempts:
Screen Shot 2014-08-23 at 17.46.32.png


If you can't see it well 30-40 yard attempts was 91%, 33 yard attempts was 78%, historical rate for 33 yard attempts is around 77%. Depends on the exact distance but even at 91% you're sacrificing an expected 0.09 points per attempt, although it's clearly better.
 

reggae

Guest
33 yard attempts:
View attachment 2707
30-40 yard attempts:
View attachment 2708

If you can't see it well 30-40 yard attempts was 91%, 33 yard attempts was 78%, historical rate for 33 yard attempts is around 77%. Depends on the exact distance but even at 91% you're sacrificing an expected 0.09 points per attempt, although it's clearly better.
Why did you choose a 33 yard field goal? You should have chosen 32. Anyway, The rule, if implemented will have the desired effect of more teams going for the 2 point conversion. The idea of spotting the ball at the 15 for a 2 point conversion goes against the construct of the game.
 

Prime Time

PT
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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/10/11/nfl-kickers-are-381-for-383-on-extra-points/

NFL kickers are 381-for-383 on extra points
Posted by Michael David Smith on October 11, 2014

extrapoint.jpg
AP

After an offseason in which there was much conversation but no action on extra points, nothing has changed this season: NFL kickers still make well over 99 percent of their point after attempts.

NFL kickers are 381-for-383 on extra points this season, a 99.5 percent clip. The two misses were both blocked. NFL kickers simply don’t miss straight on from 20 yards out. Even the Lions haven’t missed an extra point.

There seems to be an emerging consensus that extra points are so easy that they’re boring, although no one can agree on what the NFL should do about it. Here are some of the options:

1. Keep it as it is. So what if it’s boring? At least it gives you a little more time for a bathroom break after a touchdown.

2. Move kicks to the 15. This was tried during the preseason and didn’t make a big difference. A few more extra points were missed, but that’s partly because during the preseason a lot of extra points are tried by rookie free agent kickers who won’t make the active roster. If you want to make extra points just a little bit harder this is the option, but it will still result in more than 99 percent of extra points succeeding.

3. Move all PATs to the 1. Spotting the ball on point after touchdown attempts a yard closer to the goal line wouldn’t really make extra point kicks any easier, but it would make two-point conversion attempts easier and would therefore incentivize coaches to go for two more often. Two-point conversions are much more exciting plays than extra point kicks, so this rule could make the game more exciting.

4. Make the player who scored the touchdown kick it. This is the wacky option that has no chance of being adopted but would be a lot of fun to watch. Teams would go for two much more often if the player who scored the touchdown had to kick it, but the times when a position player lined up for an extra point kick would be fascinating. There would be all kinds of strategic implications: For instance, if a team has one running back who’s a good kicker and one running back who’s a lousy kicker, they’d turn the better kicker into the goal line back.

Perhaps a tight end who’s a great red-zone threat, like Julius Thomas, would turn out to be a lousy kicker and wouldn’t get as many targets in the end zone. It would also be hilarious to see a 300-pound lineman score a touchdown off a fumble and then try to kick an extra point.

5. Spot the PAT where the ball crossed the goal line. Taking a page out of the rugby playbook, the point after could be spotted at the place on the field where the ball crossed the goal line. So if a player just barely reaches the ball over the pylon at the corner of the end zone, the ball has to be spotted just inside the sideline, which would make for a very difficult angle on the extra point. It would also create some zany two-point conversion plays with the ball spotted far outside the hashmarks.

6. Follow the lead of the XFL. Vince McMahon’s football league was a failure, but it did have some fun rules. The best remembered is the scramble for the ball replacing the pre-game coin toss, but another was that there were no extra point kicks at all, and teams could either go for a one-point conversion attempt with an offensive play from the 1-yard line, a two-point conversion from the 5-yard line or a three-point conversion from the 10-yard line.

7. Eliminate extra-point kicks entirely. Maybe we should just give teams the option of taking a free point after a touchdown without even having to bother wasting everyone’s time with a gimme kick. Teams could still choose to go for two instead of taking the free point.
 

LesBaker

Mr. Savant
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
17,460
Name
Les
I don't like it. I think that they should add a second cross bar ten feet up and make them kick between the bars from the five. That way they have to keep the kick lower and there would be more chance of a block or a miss. And you don't have to screw with different spots for two point conversions.

Why not a windmill like the ones on putt putt courses hahahaha
 

Dodgersrf

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Messages
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Scott
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/10/11/nfl-kickers-are-381-for-383-on-extra-points/

NFL kickers are 381-for-383 on extra points
Posted by Michael David Smith on October 11, 2014

extrapoint.jpg
AP

After an offseason in which there was much conversation but no action on extra points, nothing has changed this season: NFL kickers still make well over 99 percent of their point after attempts.

NFL kickers are 381-for-383 on extra points this season, a 99.5 percent clip. The two misses were both blocked. NFL kickers simply don’t miss straight on from 20 yards out. Even the Lions haven’t missed an extra point.

There seems to be an emerging consensus that extra points are so easy that they’re boring, although no one can agree on what the NFL should do about it. Here are some of the options:

1. Keep it as it is. So what if it’s boring? At least it gives you a little more time for a bathroom break after a touchdown.

2. Move kicks to the 15. This was tried during the preseason and didn’t make a big difference. A few more extra points were missed, but that’s partly because during the preseason a lot of extra points are tried by rookie free agent kickers who won’t make the active roster. If you want to make extra points just a little bit harder this is the option, but it will still result in more than 99 percent of extra points succeeding.

3. Move all PATs to the 1. Spotting the ball on point after touchdown attempts a yard closer to the goal line wouldn’t really make extra point kicks any easier, but it would make two-point conversion attempts easier and would therefore incentivize coaches to go for two more often. Two-point conversions are much more exciting plays than extra point kicks, so this rule could make the game more exciting.

4. Make the player who scored the touchdown kick it. This is the wacky option that has no chance of being adopted but would be a lot of fun to watch. Teams would go for two much more often if the player who scored the touchdown had to kick it, but the times when a position player lined up for an extra point kick would be fascinating. There would be all kinds of strategic implications: For instance, if a team has one running back who’s a good kicker and one running back who’s a lousy kicker, they’d turn the better kicker into the goal line back.

Perhaps a tight end who’s a great red-zone threat, like Julius Thomas, would turn out to be a lousy kicker and wouldn’t get as many targets in the end zone. It would also be hilarious to see a 300-pound lineman score a touchdown off a fumble and then try to kick an extra point.

5. Spot the PAT where the ball crossed the goal line. Taking a page out of the rugby playbook, the point after could be spotted at the place on the field where the ball crossed the goal line. So if a player just barely reaches the ball over the pylon at the corner of the end zone, the ball has to be spotted just inside the sideline, which would make for a very difficult angle on the extra point. It would also create some zany two-point conversion plays with the ball spotted far outside the hashmarks.

6. Follow the lead of the XFL. Vince McMahon’s football league was a failure, but it did have some fun rules. The best remembered is the scramble for the ball replacing the pre-game coin toss, but another was that there were no extra point kicks at all, and teams could either go for a one-point conversion attempt with an offensive play from the 1-yard line, a two-point conversion from the 5-yard line or a three-point conversion from the 10-yard line.

7. Eliminate extra-point kicks entirely. Maybe we should just give teams the option of taking a free point after a touchdown without even having to bother wasting everyone’s time with a gimme kick. Teams could still choose to go for two instead of taking the free point.
I like idea #4.