One has to ask the question.... Westbrooks?

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Thordaddy

Binding you with ancient logic
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Rich
Thank you. And yeah, he was. Not that it matters now, but the thing to remember is that in the last 10 years, not one SEC DPOY has been taken out of the 1st round. Not one. It looked like between the depth of this extraordinary draft and Sam's "tweener" status, he was dinged a bit and was seen as more of a 2-3rd rounder. I was reading that in December when I first read about him. Then as more undergrads declared he was seen as a 3rd or so leading up to the Combine.

THEN he came out and...well, all bets were off. Within days of that, some sites had him as a 5th rounder, some hadn't changed him much and others had him as undrafted... before he'd even done anything at the Combine.

But, yeah, initially, prior to coming out, he was projected as a 3rd in plenty of places. Which already was sort of historic because that was a first of sorts...this draft would be the first draft to push an SEC DPOY out of the first round in over a decade. And it's not like he didn't earn his stripes, he very much did. But once he came out, folks just didn't believe the NFL would embrace him and by and large they were right. It was reported that several teams REMOVED HIM FROM THEIR BOARDS. Now, every team has had players arrested and had to deal with all sorts of sordid nonsense. And as we've come to see, the prognostications that drafting Michael Sam would be a "distraction" was a bunch of baloney, although a lot of that credit has to go to the Rams Organization. The point being that from the moment he came out, Michael Sam by much of the NFL stopped being evaluated as a football player which explains his fall.

See, I did some breakdowns of DEs prior to the draft and NONE got to the QB faster than Sam except for Clowney. None. On the clock. I didn't include any sacks against a TE or free shots because I wanted to score "contested" sacks. Sam's time to the QB when in the pocket was just over 1.4 seconds which was astounding and very efficient (also barely edged by Clowney). If Kony Ealy didn't contain (which wasn't unusual, unfortunately) and the QB ran away, the time increased only slightly to barely 2.0 seconds. Which means IF the QB saw Sam coming, he'd have maybe a half second to run and he'd still likely be caught for a sack. What I saw on the video was game speed. Guys didn't run away from him.

My point is that when I analyzed the video and did my own work, much of the platitudes and talking head BS that I heard didn't pass the smell test. I knew what I'd seen in doing a frame by frame. I know what I saw in the side by side comparisons. Michael Sam is a damned good football player and WAY, WAY better than a 7th rounder. Now it happens that's where we got him, so good for the Rams and the NFL will just have to show the next gay athlete that maybe it's not a big deal NEXT time.

And again, I'm not taking anything away from Ethan Westbrooks because that young man can ball. He can really play and I hope he's a Ram for a long time with plenty of sacks and tackles for loss and the whole enchilada. But he wasn't drafted because of his situation. Now that he's with the Rams he's making the most of his opportunities and I'm so very glad for him and the Rams.

I really hope the Rams keep both young men because both are shaping up to be talented contributors and why shouldn't the Rams be that team that's loaded with depth for once?

Mac,I don't doubt any of your analysis there of what you saw on film,in fact I honor your work, I haven't forgotten you insistence on Alshon Jeffrey and how so many of us whiffed on him (including our Rams)but I still have a very tough time accepting the idea that Sam is near third round talent . His combine numbers weren't that lofty first of all.and second but even more important to me ,the implication as to why he fell.

You make a primafacia case for the entire league to be homophobic as well as many tallent evaluators and I have trouble leveling those kind of charges against anyone until I know it to be the case,charges of racist ,homophobe,sexist are so serious in my mind and get thrown out just to gain sway in argument in such a cavalier way ,once that bell gets rung you can't unring it and IMO are more hurtful to the target than any epithet because of course thinking people know the epithet really reflects upon the issuer and doesn't REALLY diminish the target . Once labeled that way where do you go to get your reputation back ? We must consider the humanity of all parties here before we give in to our own prejudices.,NOT BTW saying you are giving in .

I think Mike Sam was drafted about where his abilities dictated , his quickness is good but the bulk of you analysis was against far inferior competition to what he will face in the NFL and although he shined against that competition he's just a little small and not the freak athlete a guy that size has to be to be productive at this level the way a third round talent can and often has been.

It is my experience that in matters of sexual orientation attitudes are polarized towards over reaction in both directions ,people tend to have near militant attitudes in reaction to the polar opposite and rare is the unbiased opinion of one another,I won't let myself believe this whole league was afraid to draft that kid for the talent he possesses ,I can't write that many people off ,I have to examine anyone on a case by case basis before I make those kinds of judgement ,I just do.

Maybe I'm naive , but I have to believe in the good in everyone first until they prove me wrong.
 

LesBaker

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I'll keep my take short because normally I have tons to say on this and it's late and I need the sleep:

1) Had Michael Sam not come out or simply wasn't gay, his draft stock doesn't drop. That means he stays a 3rd rounder, likely and ALSO isn't asked to do LB drills at the Combine which really hurt him (and, frankly, I thought were meant to sabotage him. ANYONE who watched him for 3 snaps could see he's a hand in the dirt designated pass rusher. Period). That likely means that wherever he'd have ended up, the question wouldn't have been IF he made the squad, but how he was expecting to contribute. Same guy. Only difference would be folks knowing. Wade Davis played in the NFL for years. Only difference is that no one KNEW he was gay. Plenty of guys have been through the league and are gay. Only difference is that Michael Sam is the first guy who just doesn't want to "live the lie". The cost of that? Apparently it's 4 rounds in the draft followed by articles about what a victory it is to BE drafted, by what a victory it is to be DRAFTED, even though he'll probably be cut. Even though the ONLY reason he was a 7th rounder in the first place was? Oh yeah. He's gay. (I have more about how clear the NFL is about how MUCH they don't like the whole openly gay...thing, but I'll stop for this post)

2) If Michael Sam retains that draft status, he doesn't lose the weight. He came to the OTAs at 270 and LOST WEIGHT (13lbs at the time) for the Rams because they want him to play Special Teams coverage units. So Michael Sam lost weight to gain speed. Now, folks are dinging him for being light. Well, how can one have it both ways? As Coach Fisher put it, DEs don't generally play STs, so that's already a challenge, but Michael Sam's working on that. But he lost the weight for the Rams because they asked. He's perfectly capable of putting the weight back on and playing with more strength and power. He's not maxed at 260.

3) Pitting Ethan Westbrooks against Michael Sam diminishes both young men and neither deserve that. Each have their unique journeys and have gone through a lot to get here and each is working hard to make this team. They've both earned this shot. I've stated here and elsewhere that I think Michael Sam got mad shortchanged in the draft process, but that's water under the bridge and if that's what it took for him to be a Ram, then so be it because we got a damned steal in the process and if people can't see how good he can be, then just wait because he really can be that good. He just needs some more time with Boo. And I'm not worried about him right now. He looks like he's got some camp legs having taken more snaps than any D-lineman on the Rams as well as playing some STs, but he's got skills. He's certainly farther along than the hot mess that Chris Long was (and you're damn right, I'll totally get into the complete freaking mess HE was, I don't care WHERE he was drafted, his footwork was complete crap coming out and his hands were only marginally better, which isn't saying much). Btw, that should be the first clue that we should keep BOTH of them. That said, Ethan Westbrooks and Michael Sam are different cats and Coach Fisher would be looking at them to fulfill different roles. Westbrooks would be a guy who would spell William Hayes and bounce inside and out. Michael Sam would bounce outside, left and right. Not every DE can play both sides. Michael can. Now, if Gregg Williams gets comfortable with the rotation, they may stop asking Sam to play STs and allow him to gain some weight that would allow him to be a little more effective against the run.

To directly answer the OP, Ethan Westbrooks was paid a fair sum based upon his potential. However, he was not drafted because no team wanted to reward or take a chance on his red flags. Every team wanted to send that message that, "you weren't drafted, so you need to understand that. If you want to make it here, you'll really have to earn it AND do it the right way." Now, both the Rams and Dallas wanted him, but the Rams really stepped up for him because I guess they saw something in him so they paid him a fair share to get him in. Likely it took that much to convince him and his agent based on our depth. But let's not get it twisted. While one could conceive of a team taking a flyer on him, the reality of a team drafting him was pretty remote considering the number of flags surrounding him.

As for drafting Michael Sam, it was a complicated matter no matter where he was drafted because people were involved and people have a tendency to make things needlessly complicated and dramatic for no good reason. I also think that a defensive coach like Fisher and a GM like Snead, both of whom love the SEC (notice we've taken the last two RBs who led that league in rushing) saw the SEC's co-DPOY sitting there when their compensatory picks were up and even with the Rams line, they had to be smiling. When you're building a team, you don't expect an opportunity to add to your strengths like this even after adding Aaron Donald, but there he was. But... they knew they'd have to "manage" the pick, especially at first and wanted to ensure ownership was on board. Pretty easy considering Kroenke is a Mizzou guy. And, BAM, Sam's a Ram and the rich just got richer, the best DL in the NFL just got deeper. Seriously, we may look back years from now and I dunno which of Aaron Donald, Ethan Westbrooks or Michael Sam will end up being the better player, but I'm sure as hell glad we have them all. It's an embarrassment of riches. Considering how Michael Sam has comported himself as a football player, he's pretty much laid to rest all of the "distraction" nonsense.

Now, we may have just added 3 solid depth/rotational players to what was arguably one of the best DLs in all of football...FROM JUST ONE DRAFT.

The better questions are How is that not gravy? and Why shouldn't we celebrate the Rams good fortune?

Edit: for those that don't know me...this is short for me...

Mac thanks for keeping it short :p
 

Thordaddy

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If I could I'd like to add,IF THERE WAS a team in this league that didn't NEED Mike Sam ,regardless how good you think he is,,it's the Rams ,our depth is why he won't make this team if he doesn't ,so in the end the team with the least reason to draft him from the purely football perspective did,that strongly suggests an altruistic motive to me and I WANT TO BELIEVE ( and in the end we all believe what we want) that our owner wasn't gonna let Mike Sam go undrafted,it makes me proud of this organization and in my mind is a good thing.
 

DaveFan'51

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If I could I'd like to add,IF THERE WAS a team in this league that didn't NEED Mike Sam ,regardless how good you think he is,,it's the Rams ,our depth is why he won't make this team if he doesn't ,so in the end the team with the least reason to draft him from the purely football perspective did,that strongly suggests an altruistic motive to me and I WANT TO BELIEVE ( and in the end we all believe what we want) that our owner wasn't gonna let Mike Sam go undrafted,it makes me proud of this organization and in my mind is a good thing.
+ Fisher theory; "..You can NEVER have too many edge rushers!.."
 

Alan

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:ROFLMAO:
The good/bad news is that I'm always here so take your time @flv. It's good to know that you realize it's against the law to not respond to a post of mine. :LOL::ROFLMAO::LOL::ROFLMAO::snicker:
 

Thordaddy

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Isn't this a nice position to be in!?:D
Sure it is ,but we do have too many so ? so the Fisher Theorem has a flaw ,you can have too many edge rushers,and since Westbrooks is more than an edge rusher and that is about all Mike is ,I'd go with Westbrooks and wish Mike all the best if he doesn't clear wavers so we can PS him.
 

DaveFan'51

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Sure it is ,but we do have too many so ? so the Fisher Theorem has a flaw ,you can have too many edge rushers,and since Westbrooks is more than an edge rusher and that is about all Mike is ,I'd go with Westbrooks and wish Mike all the best if he doesn't clear wavers so we can PS him.
Totally Agree!!!! 1000%
 

jjab360

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Who's Henderson?
Seantrel Henderson, OT who played for Miami. Now plays for the Bills and looks pretty good, imo. One of those physical freaks almost in the Greg Robinson mold, but doesn't quite have the physical demeanor and a real headcase. Still an elite talent if he can put it together, we should've taken a flyer, imo.
 

CoachO

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Mac,I don't doubt any of your analysis there of what you saw on film,in fact I honor your work, I haven't forgotten you insistence on Alshon Jeffrey and how so many of us whiffed on him (including our Rams)but I still have a very tough time accepting the idea that Sam is near third round talent . His combine numbers weren't that lofty first of all.and second but even more important to me ,the implication as to why he fell.

You make a primafacia case for the entire league to be homophobic as well as many tallent evaluators and I have trouble leveling those kind of charges against anyone until I know it to be the case,charges of racist ,homophobe,sexist are so serious in my mind and get thrown out just to gain sway in argument in such a cavalier way ,once that bell gets rung you can't unring it and IMO are more hurtful to the target than any epithet because of course thinking people know the epithet really reflects upon the issuer and doesn't REALLY diminish the target . Once labeled that way where do you go to get your reputation back ? We must consider the humanity of all parties here before we give in to our own prejudices.,NOT BTW saying you are giving in .

I think Mike Sam was drafted about where his abilities dictated , his quickness is good but the bulk of you analysis was against far inferior competition to what he will face in the NFL and although he shined against that competition he's just a little small and not the freak athlete a guy that size has to be to be productive at this level the way a third round talent can and often has been.

It is my experience that in matters of sexual orientation attitudes are polarized towards over reaction in both directions ,people tend to have near militant attitudes in reaction to the polar opposite and rare is the unbiased opinion of one another,I won't let myself believe this whole league was afraid to draft that kid for the talent he possesses ,I can't write that many people off ,I have to examine anyone on a case by case basis before I make those kinds of judgement ,I just do.

Maybe I'm naive , but I have to believe in the good in everyone first until they prove me wrong.


With all due respect, I think you are being somewhat naive if you honestly believe that his "coming out" didn't seriously impact his draft position. To say otherwise is just as speculative as "accusing" the entire league of being homophobic. This is uncharted territory, and my guess, the views shared by Tony Dungy about "not drafting" him because of the fear of distraction was much more prevalent than it being simply a case of homophobia.

To use his combine numbers as a fall back, almost as a built in excuse, IMO, was just convenient posturing on the part of the "play it safe" crowd. Let me ask you, do you honestly think that this kid, with all the pressures of the media blitz, constant interview requests, and non stop coverage DURING the combine, may not have been as focused as he should have been on his 40 time, bench press, etc?

I tend to agree with Mackeyser on this one. Watch the game tapes. The guy makes plays. And for all those who continue to use is "tweener" size against him, they usually are the same people who try to shy away from talking about his skill set. He has the ability to drop his hips, get the inside shoulder of the OT, and close. While I am not going to say he has the same athleticism as Robert Quinn, his "size" isn't that different. Quinn is 2 inches taller, but his height/weight ratio isn't far off of Sam's. And let's not try to kid ourselves. Quinn was a "good" DE in his first 2 years, but didn't really bust out until year 3.
 
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Thordaddy

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He's looked good against people who aren't going to make teams by and large ,either way there IS a significant amount of speculation no matter where you fall on this,as I said I MAY BE naive but I'm not gonna judge the league and many of the evaluators and start pointing fingers ,my opinion will never effect Mikes status and FWIW looks for the best in people ,that's who I choose to be as often as I can manage.
As far as trying to compare him to Quinn, and that H/W ratio Sam's body fat is significantly higher than Quinns if my eyes don't deceive me,so yeah "let's don't kid ourselves," I'm not holding my breath waiting for Mike to turn into Quinn.
 

CoachO

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He's looked good against people who aren't going to make teams by and large ,either way there IS a significant amount of speculation no matter where you fall on this,as I said I MAY BE naive but I'm not gonna judge the league and many of the evaluators and start pointing fingers ,my opinion will never effect Mikes status and FWIW looks for the best in people ,that's who I choose to be as often as I can manage.
As far as trying to compare him to Quinn, and that H/W ratio Sam's body fat is significantly higher than Quinns if my eyes don't deceive me,so yeah "let's don't kid ourselves," I'm not holding my breath waiting for Mike to turn into Quinn.

Again, you didn't see where I admitted than I am not saying Michal Sam is, or will become the player Quinn has become?. But I also don't see him being Sammy Brown either. And if you are gonna say that Sam has "looked good against people who aren't going to make teams", then I ask you, can't you make the EXACT same comment about Westbrooks? And to take THAT POINT a step further, where were the Jake Matthews and Greg Robinson's on Westbrooks' schedule last year?

Sam played in the 1st Quarter of the Saints game, and Westbrooks played in the 2nd quarter of the Packer game. So that argument is a wash.
 

Thordaddy

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Again, you didn't see where I admitted than I am not saying Michal Sam is, or will become the player Quinn has become?. But I also don't see him being Sammy Brown either. And if you are gonna say that Sam has "looked good against people who aren't going to make teams", then I ask you, can't you make the EXACT same comment about Westbrooks? And to take THAT POINT a step further, where were the Jake Matthews and Greg Robinson's on Westbrooks' schedule last year?

Sam played in the 1st Quarter of the Saints game, and Westbrooks played in the 2nd quarter of the Packer game. So that argument is a wash.

well..................if this is gonna turn into an argument,I'll just let the Fish settle it,and say this, my preference is the bigger more versatile westbrook and leave it at that and I hope we can sneak Sam through to the practice squad and beef him up some ,if the rest of the league is who they've been portrayed by some people in this thread that should be no problem