One has to ask the question.... Westbrooks?

[jjab360]

Sometimes I wonder if he has a ulterior motive to some of the questions he asks.

Hmmm...

 

[PhxRam]

Hmmm...

agreed.

 

[Robocop]

Sometimes I wonder if he has a ulterior motive to some of the questions he asks.

He probably made a bet he could get the conversation over 100 comments and 1000 replies by mentioning Michael Freakin Sam. guess he won

 

[jimitroutboy]

Seriously, what does this mean?

Uhh It means I grew up in Columbia, attended Hickman High School and got my degree from the University of Missouri

 

[Akrasian]

Umm they were two picks from the end, neither were getting drafted so there goes that theory.

Well, six picks. And SOMEBODY had to be and was drafted in those spots. Unless you wish to tell Ken Bishop's, Lavelle Westbrooks', Yawin Smallwood's, Terrance Mitchell's, Tyler Starr's, and Lonnie Ballentine's mothers that they are nobodies. And that might make them weep.

 

[NJRamsFan]

Just why did the Rams draft Michael Sam and NOT Westbrooks?

I would LOVE to hear the "real" answer to that one though we know we'll never get it.

I mean they offer Westbrooks a LOT of $$ as far as UDFA's go, and he certainly looks the part.

So WHY didn't they draft him instead of Sam?

grow up

 

[Mackeyser]

I'll keep my take short because normally I have tons to say on this and it's late and I need the sleep:

1) Had Michael Sam not come out or simply wasn't gay, his draft stock doesn't drop. That means he stays a 3rd rounder, likely and ALSO isn't asked to do LB drills at the Combine which really hurt him (and, frankly, I thought were meant to sabotage him. ANYONE who watched him for 3 snaps could see he's a hand in the dirt designated pass rusher. Period). That likely means that wherever he'd have ended up, the question wouldn't have been IF he made the squad, but how he was expecting to contribute. Same guy. Only difference would be folks knowing. Wade Davis played in the NFL for years. Only difference is that no one KNEW he was gay. Plenty of guys have been through the league and are gay. Only difference is that Michael Sam is the first guy who just doesn't want to "live the lie". The cost of that? Apparently it's 4 rounds in the draft followed by articles about what a victory it is to BE drafted, by what a victory it is to be DRAFTED, even though he'll probably be cut. Even though the ONLY reason he was a 7th rounder in the first place was? Oh yeah. He's gay. (I have more about how clear the NFL is about how MUCH they don't like the whole openly gay...thing, but I'll stop for this post)

2) If Michael Sam retains that draft status, he doesn't lose the weight. He came to the OTAs at 270 and LOST WEIGHT (13lbs at the time) for the Rams because they want him to play Special Teams coverage units. So Michael Sam lost weight to gain speed. Now, folks are dinging him for being light. Well, how can one have it both ways? As Coach Fisher put it, DEs don't generally play STs, so that's already a challenge, but Michael Sam's working on that. But he lost the weight for the Rams because they asked. He's perfectly capable of putting the weight back on and playing with more strength and power. He's not maxed at 260.

3) Pitting Ethan Westbrooks against Michael Sam diminishes both young men and neither deserve that. Each have their unique journeys and have gone through a lot to get here and each is working hard to make this team. They've both earned this shot. I've stated here and elsewhere that I think Michael Sam got mad shortchanged in the draft process, but that's water under the bridge and if that's what it took for him to be a Ram, then so be it because we got a damned steal in the process and if people can't see how good he can be, then just wait because he really can be that good. He just needs some more time with Boo. And I'm not worried about him right now. He looks like he's got some camp legs having taken more snaps than any D-lineman on the Rams as well as playing some STs, but he's got skills. He's certainly farther along than the hot mess that Chris Long was (and you're damn right, I'll totally get into the complete fucking mess HE was, I don't care WHERE he was drafted, his footwork was complete shit coming out and his hands were only marginally better, which isn't saying much). Btw, that should be the first clue that we should keep BOTH of them. That said, Ethan Westbrooks and Michael Sam are different cats and Coach Fisher would be looking at them to fulfill different roles. Westbrooks would be a guy who would spell William Hayes and bounce inside and out. Michael Sam would bounce outside, left and right. Not every DE can play both sides. Michael can. Now, if Gregg Williams gets comfortable with the rotation, they may stop asking Sam to play STs and allow him to gain some weight that would allow him to be a little more effective against the run.

To directly answer the OP, Ethan Westbrooks was paid a fair sum based upon his potential. However, he was not drafted because no team wanted to reward or take a chance on his red flags. Every team wanted to send that message that, "you weren't drafted, so you need to understand that. If you want to make it here, you'll really have to earn it AND do it the right way." Now, both the Rams and Dallas wanted him, but the Rams really stepped up for him because I guess they saw something in him so they paid him a fair share to get him in. Likely it took that much to convince him and his agent based on our depth. But let's not get it twisted. While one could conceive of a team taking a flyer on him, the reality of a team drafting him was pretty remote considering the number of flags surrounding him.

As for drafting Michael Sam, it was a complicated matter no matter where he was drafted because people were involved and people have a tendency to make things needlessly complicated and dramatic for no good reason. I also think that a defensive coach like Fisher and a GM like Snead, both of whom love the SEC (notice we've taken the last two RBs who led that league in rushing) saw the SEC's co-DPOY sitting there when their compensatory picks were up and even with the Rams line, they had to be smiling. When you're building a team, you don't expect an opportunity to add to your strengths like this even after adding Aaron Donald, but there he was. But... they knew they'd have to "manage" the pick, especially at first and wanted to ensure ownership was on board. Pretty easy considering Kroenke is a Mizzou guy. And, BAM, Sam's a Ram and the rich just got richer, the best DL in the NFL just got deeper. Seriously, we may look back years from now and I dunno which of Aaron Donald, Ethan Westbrooks or Michael Sam will end up being the better player, but I'm sure as hell glad we have them all. It's an embarrassment of riches. Considering how Michael Sam has comported himself as a football player, he's pretty much laid to rest all of the "distraction" nonsense.

Now, we may have just added 3 solid depth/rotational players to what was arguably one of the best DLs in all of football...FROM JUST ONE DRAFT.

The better questions are How is that not gravy? and Why shouldn't we celebrate the Rams good fortune?

Edit: for those that don't know me...this is short for me...

 

[CGI_Ram]

I'll keep my take short because normally I have tons to say on this and it's late and I need the sleep:

1) Had Michael Sam not come out or simply wasn't gay, his draft stock doesn't drop. That means he stays a 3rd rounder, likely and ALSO isn't asked to do LB drills at the Combine which really hurt him (and, frankly, I thought were meant to sabotage him. ANYONE who watched him for 3 snaps could see he's a hand in the dirt designated pass rusher. Period). That likely means that wherever he'd have ended up, the question wouldn't have been IF he made the squad, but how he was expecting to contribute. Same guy. Only difference would be folks knowing. Wade Davis played in the NFL for years. Only difference is that no one KNEW he was gay. Plenty of guys have been through the league and are gay. Only difference is that Michael Sam is the first guy who just doesn't want to "live the lie". The cost of that? Apparently it's 4 rounds in the draft followed by articles about what a victory it is to BE drafted, by what a victory it is to be DRAFTED, even though he'll probably be cut. Even though the ONLY reason he was a 7th rounder in the first place was? Oh yeah. He's gay. (I have more about how clear the NFL is about how MUCH they don't like the whole openly gay...thing, but I'll stop for this post)

2) If Michael Sam retains that draft status, he doesn't lose the weight. He came to the OTAs at 270 and LOST WEIGHT (13lbs at the time) for the Rams because they want him to play Special Teams coverage units. So Michael Sam lost weight to gain speed. Now, folks are dinging him for being light. Well, how can one have it both ways? As Coach Fisher put it, DEs don't generally play STs, so that's already a challenge, but Michael Sam's working on that. But he lost the weight for the Rams because they asked. He's perfectly capable of putting the weight back on and playing with more strength and power. He's not maxed at 260.

3) Pitting Ethan Westbrooks against Michael Sam diminishes both young men and neither deserve that. Each have their unique journeys and have gone through a lot to get here and each is working hard to make this team. They've both earned this shot. I've stated here and elsewhere that I think Michael Sam got mad shortchanged in the draft process, but that's water under the bridge and if that's what it took for him to be a Ram, then so be it because we got a damned steal in the process and if people can't see how good he can be, then just wait because he really can be that good. He just needs some more time with Boo. And I'm not worried about him right now. He looks like he's got some camp legs having taken more snaps than any D-lineman on the Rams as well as playing some STs, but he's got skills. He's certainly farther along than the hot mess that Chris Long was (and you're damn right, I'll totally get into the complete freaking mess HE was, I don't care WHERE he was drafted, his footwork was complete crap coming out and his hands were only marginally better, which isn't saying much). Btw, that should be the first clue that we should keep BOTH of them. That said, Ethan Westbrooks and Michael Sam are different cats and Coach Fisher would be looking at them to fulfill different roles. Westbrooks would be a guy who would spell William Hayes and bounce inside and out. Michael Sam would bounce outside, left and right. Not every DE can play both sides. Michael can. Now, if Gregg Williams gets comfortable with the rotation, they may stop asking Sam to play STs and allow him to gain some weight that would allow him to be a little more effective against the run.

To directly answer the OP, Ethan Westbrooks was paid a fair sum based upon his potential. However, he was not drafted because no team wanted to reward or take a chance on his red flags. Every team wanted to send that message that, "you weren't drafted, so you need to understand that. If you want to make it here, you'll really have to earn it AND do it the right way." Now, both the Rams and Dallas wanted him, but the Rams really stepped up for him because I guess they saw something in him so they paid him a fair share to get him in. Likely it took that much to convince him and his agent based on our depth. But let's not get it twisted. While one could conceive of a team taking a flyer on him, the reality of a team drafting him was pretty remote considering the number of flags surrounding him.

As for drafting Michael Sam, it was a complicated matter no matter where he was drafted because people were involved and people have a tendency to make things needlessly complicated and dramatic for no good reason. I also think that a defensive coach like Fisher and a GM like Snead, both of whom love the SEC (notice we've taken the last two RBs who led that league in rushing) saw the SEC's co-DPOY sitting there when their compensatory picks were up and even with the Rams line, they had to be smiling. When you're building a team, you don't expect an opportunity to add to your strengths like this even after adding Aaron Donald, but there he was. But... they knew they'd have to "manage" the pick, especially at first and wanted to ensure ownership was on board. Pretty easy considering Kroenke is a Mizzou guy. And, BAM, Sam's a Ram and the rich just got richer, the best DL in the NFL just got deeper. Seriously, we may look back years from now and I dunno which of Aaron Donald, Ethan Westbrooks or Michael Sam will end up being the better player, but I'm sure as hell glad we have them all. It's an embarrassment of riches. Considering how Michael Sam has comported himself as a football player, he's pretty much laid to rest all of the "distraction" nonsense.

Now, we may have just added 3 solid depth/rotational players to what was arguably one of the best DLs in all of football...FROM JUST ONE DRAFT.

The better questions are How is that not gravy? and Why shouldn't we celebrate the Rams good fortune?

Edit: for those that don't know me...this is short for me...

I don't think MSam was ever a 3rd rounder, but there is a lot of good stuff in your post. Well done!

 

[mr.stlouis]

I've said it before and I'll say it again Stan Kroenke wanted us to draft him cuz he's a Mizzou kid and all the other stuff,he wasn't gonna let the kid go undrafted.They( Fish, Sbead ) said they conferred with Stan on the pick ,just how many other picks did they do that on? I say NONE.
But I'm completely OK with it ,aren't you?

Yeah, I'm good. I just hope he makes the team due to he's the BPA in fair comparison to the others..

 

[blue4]

I don't think MSam was ever a 3rd rounder, but there is a lot of good stuff in your post. Well done!

I have to agree, he was never a third round pick.

 

[blue4]

Saw in the PD that Westbrooks is listed under the "safe and sound" category in the roster lists.
Do they know something, or is this speculation/typo?

 

[CGI_Ram]

Saw in the PD that Westbrooks is listed under the "safe and sound" category in the roster lists.
Do they know something, or is this speculation/typo?

Yeah, I saw that too. Here is JT's countdown cuts piece;

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/cutdown-days-near-for-rams-roster-long-shots-pd.29022/

I think JT is guessing like the rest of us. But, he's obviously closer to the Rams and likely is picking up on chatter they like EW.

 

[blue4]

Yeah, I saw that too. Here is JT's countdown cuts piece;

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/cutdown-days-near-for-rams-roster-long-shots-pd.29022/

I think JT is guessing like the rest of us. But, he's obviously closer to the Rams and likely is picking up on chatter they like EW.

I've never seen so many dlineman that I like on one team before. Other than 1999 WRs I don't think we've had a deeper unit in STL. Cardinals included.

 

[CGI_Ram]

I've never seen so many dlineman that I like on one team before. Other than 1999 WRs I don't think we've had a deeper unit in STL. Cardinals included.

As others have suggested; could we trade some of that depth for some help at LB? I guess we'll see.

 

[blue4]

As others have suggested; could we trade some of that depth for some help at LB? I guess we'll see.

The only ones that are known enough outside the team to get equal value are indispensable IMO.

 

[CGI_Ram]

The only ones that are known enough outside the team to get equal value are indispensable IMO.

Obviously we're talking about finding a younger unproven guy off a team loaded with tough choices at linebacker. I could think of a few DL on our squad that I'd consider trading for that.

 

[Mackeyser]

I don't think MSam was ever a 3rd rounder, but there is a lot of good stuff in your post. Well done!

Thank you. And yeah, he was. Not that it matters now, but the thing to remember is that in the last 10 years, not one SEC DPOY has been taken out of the 1st round. Not one. It looked like between the depth of this extraordinary draft and Sam's "tweener" status, he was dinged a bit and was seen as more of a 2-3rd rounder. I was reading that in December when I first read about him. Then as more undergrads declared he was seen as a 3rd or so leading up to the Combine.

THEN he came out and...well, all bets were off. Within days of that, some sites had him as a 5th rounder, some hadn't changed him much and others had him as undrafted... before he'd even done anything at the Combine.

But, yeah, initially, prior to coming out, he was projected as a 3rd in plenty of places. Which already was sort of historic because that was a first of sorts...this draft would be the first draft to push an SEC DPOY out of the first round in over a decade. And it's not like he didn't earn his stripes, he very much did. But once he came out, folks just didn't believe the NFL would embrace him and by and large they were right. It was reported that several teams REMOVED HIM FROM THEIR BOARDS. Now, every team has had players arrested and had to deal with all sorts of sordid nonsense. And as we've come to see, the prognostications that drafting Michael Sam would be a "distraction" was a bunch of baloney, although a lot of that credit has to go to the Rams Organization. The point being that from the moment he came out, Michael Sam by much of the NFL stopped being evaluated as a football player which explains his fall.

See, I did some breakdowns of DEs prior to the draft and NONE got to the QB faster than Sam except for Clowney. None. On the clock. I didn't include any sacks against a TE or free shots because I wanted to score "contested" sacks. Sam's time to the QB when in the pocket was just over 1.4 seconds which was astounding and very efficient (also barely edged by Clowney). If Kony Ealy didn't contain (which wasn't unusual, unfortunately) and the QB ran away, the time increased only slightly to barely 2.0 seconds. Which means IF the QB saw Sam coming, he'd have maybe a half second to run and he'd still likely be caught for a sack. What I saw on the video was game speed. Guys didn't run away from him.

My point is that when I analyzed the video and did my own work, much of the platitudes and talking head BS that I heard didn't pass the smell test. I knew what I'd seen in doing a frame by frame. I know what I saw in the side by side comparisons. Michael Sam is a damned good football player and WAY, WAY better than a 7th rounder. Now it happens that's where we got him, so good for the Rams and the NFL will just have to show the next gay athlete that maybe it's not a big deal NEXT time.

And again, I'm not taking anything away from Ethan Westbrooks because that young man can ball. He can really play and I hope he's a Ram for a long time with plenty of sacks and tackles for loss and the whole enchilada. But he wasn't drafted because of his situation. Now that he's with the Rams he's making the most of his opportunities and I'm so very glad for him and the Rams.

I really hope the Rams keep both young men because both are shaping up to be talented contributors and why shouldn't the Rams be that team that's loaded with depth for once?

 

[paceram]

Thank you. And yeah, he was. Not that it matters now, but the thing to remember is that in the last 10 years, not one SEC DPOY has been taken out of the 1st round. Not one. It looked like between the depth of this extraordinary draft and Sam's "tweener" status, he was dinged a bit and was seen as more of a 2-3rd rounder. I was reading that in December when I first read about him. Then as more undergrads declared he was seen as a 3rd or so leading up to the Combine.

THEN he came out and...well, all bets were off. Within days of that, some sites had him as a 5th rounder, some hadn't changed him much and others had him as undrafted... before he'd even done anything at the Combine.

But, yeah, initially, prior to coming out, he was projected as a 3rd in plenty of places. Which already was sort of historic because that was a first of sorts...this draft would be the first draft to push an SEC DPOY out of the first round in over a decade. And it's not like he didn't earn his stripes, he very much did. But once he came out, folks just didn't believe the NFL would embrace him and by and large they were right. It was reported that several teams REMOVED HIM FROM THEIR BOARDS. Now, every team has had players arrested and had to deal with all sorts of sordid nonsense. And as we've come to see, the prognostications that drafting Michael Sam would be a "distraction" was a bunch of baloney, although a lot of that credit has to go to the Rams Organization. The point being that from the moment he came out, Michael Sam by much of the NFL stopped being evaluated as a football player which explains his fall.

See, I did some breakdowns of DEs prior to the draft and NONE got to the QB faster than Sam except for Clowney. None. On the clock. I didn't include any sacks against a TE or free shots because I wanted to score "contested" sacks. Sam's time to the QB when in the pocket was just over 1.4 seconds which was astounding and very efficient (also barely edged by Clowney). If Kony Ealy didn't contain (which wasn't unusual, unfortunately) and the QB ran away, the time increased only slightly to barely 2.0 seconds. Which means IF the QB saw Sam coming, he'd have maybe a half second to run and he'd still likely be caught for a sack. What I saw on the video was game speed. Guys didn't run away from him.

My point is that when I analyzed the video and did my own work, much of the platitudes and talking head BS that I heard didn't pass the smell test. I knew what I'd seen in doing a frame by frame. I know what I saw in the side by side comparisons. Michael Sam is a damned good football player and WAY, WAY better than a 7th rounder. Now it happens that's where we got him, so good for the Rams and the NFL will just have to show the next gay athlete that maybe it's not a big deal NEXT time.

And again, I'm not taking anything away from Ethan Westbrooks because that young man can ball. He can really play and I hope he's a Ram for a long time with plenty of sacks and tackles for loss and the whole enchilada. But he wasn't drafted because of his situation. Now that he's with the Rams he's making the most of his opportunities and I'm so very glad for him and the Rams.

I really hope the Rams keep both young men because both are shaping up to be talented contributors and why shouldn't the Rams be that team that's loaded with depth for once?

Personally, I agree with that I hope both Sams & Westbrooks make the Rams final roster but with that being said I don't know who they cut to make room for the both of them.

 

[Mackeyser]

Well, I don't think Conrath is safe, for one.

I don't think they keep Gilbert on the active roster. I think with how well Hill has played, they put Gilbert on the PS.

Also, I think they go 4 RBs and 4 TEs (I see Alex Bayer over Justice Cunningham since Justice can't seem to find any when it comes to catching anything other than a cold...)

That combo right there likely allows them to carry 10 DEs. Plus, I think both Williams and Fisher want to rotate DL more to keep them fresh, so keeping the big guys' snap counts lower is a good thing, but that means having more guys who can play. They didn't have that in the past, but they could potentially have that now if they choose to go that way.

Hell, I'd love for them to go to a faux 3-4, but just drop a couple of extra DEs on the ends and rush 5 with, say, Langford at NT and 4 DEs rushing like mad at the QB? Sounds like day at the movies to me with popcorn, candy and a big soda pop.

Sounds like something Williams would do right before reverting to a generic 4-3 look and throwing a completely exotic blitz package back around.

I do know that this defense has me excited and I hope they live up to all this anticipation. If AP runs around like some kid on candy in Walmart... I'll admit right now that I'll be unreasonably cranky...

 

[blue4]

Obviously we're talking about finding a younger unproven guy off a team loaded with tough choices at linebacker. I could think of a few DL on our squad that I'd consider trading for that.

I haven't been able to keep up with others preseasons this year. Are there any LB prospects drafted low that are generating buzz?