O-line Woes falls on Fisher's Shoulders

[Rmfnlt]

But the O-Line didn't lose this game...those 2 fumbles...by top 10 players...hurt...

But didn't the Oline make major contribtions to those fumbles?

IIRC, Gurley barely had the ball before getting hit in backfield... for one... then, Keenum's concussion...

To me, the Oline was a major part of the problem yesterday.

And, yes, that's on Fisher.

 

[Rmfnlt]

It's Fishers fault they got hurt?

Can't blame fish for the many many injuries.

Of course not... injuries happen to every team and that's not on the HC.

I do blame him a little for not getting a vet to join the line though.

What is on the HC (and GM) is making sure there is ample, quality depth so you can say (with some degree of confidence) "Next man up!!"... instead of "Oh my God!!"

 

[Merlin]

@ChrisW
Okay.....not bad, not great....No big holes...but overall, okay, first start....Case had to scramble a few times....it was tough...Donnal went down pretty early.....

You show me ONE LT in the NFL that doesn't struggle....He's a grabber, but by no means is this guy some terrible player...Was this expected, maybe by the coaches but not the fans...
Brown was playing about the same as G-Rob....he did appear to be playing better in preseason. RG he seemed about the same...both made mistakes....Havenstein was getting better in my eyes....My thoughts are, he PLAYED RT at Wisconsin, great coaching there, then he starts at RT here...that's 5 years....
Lastly, I think, not sure, but I think physical fitness has a lot to do with injuries....that's all I'll say on that....We need players that can stay healthy....continuity is what can make a line great/good...we don't have healthy bodies, AGAIN....All of these linemen are about the same, more or less...G-Rob's at one end of the spectrum, and a guy like Barnes on the other....If given time to play together, I'd guess any could become a great unit.
I'm more interested in the teams that can build good lines quickly...How does NE do it? How did Dallas do it? It seems they have powerful lines, and use pretty young/inexperienced players...Patriots just plug anyone in...and they do well....
to me it breaks down to:
QB's make lines good. Great QB's, RB's & WR's make them great....

I do think people need to quit defending GRob. This is a man's game, he's in his second season as a 2 overall pick in the draft, and this team needs him to play well. I see people using the injuries and subbing next to him as an excuse for his poor play, but the fact is he should be the guy anchoring this line after 2.5 seasons in this league with his talent and draft status. Instead he's floundering like a kid who lost his parents at the fair. Dude needs to man up and be a rock for this line.

The guy who really sucked this last game was Rhaney. Dude was overmatched bigtime and it showed.

Long term this line has some good pieces. HStein is an anchor type guy on the right side. Brown will return just fine from that break. GRob I still think is a quality starter but it remains to be seen if it will be at LT it might be at OG. So at the least this line has three excellent and young pieces for the future.

As to how NE does it... It is more than the QB. They scheme very well for starters, and their players execute because they understand what they're doing and their gameplan is well conceived. If you draw up a gameplan for the greatest QB in the game and it's not an accurate estimation of how that defense will attack you, he's gonna struggle. Tom Brady behind center for us would help, but probably not as much as people think. After a few weeks with him in this offense the media would be talking about how he's slipped and needs to retire IMO.

 

[Pancake]

And how much further along was he in his development coming out of Ohio state? All these comparisons are pointless.

Robinson has his issues. But if this unit was allowed to remain intact with the same five guys playing each and every week none of this would matter.

But that's not the case. So every struggle is magnified. People like to isolate on individuals rather than focus on the cohesion that is needed for this unit to be productive. More than any other unit in the field, it's all about the sum of the parts not which player isn't good enough.

Lately people are blasting away at Robinson. Or Barnes in pointing out their struggles. But they fail to take into account that it might be the guy next to them who missed his assignment and caused the issue in the first place.

The OP said Pace wasn't "all world" on day one. I pointed out he became "all world" very quickly. Nowhere do I directly compare the two. In fact I don't believe I have ever posted a single comment specifically about Robinson.

 

[CoachO]

The OP said Pace wasn't "all world" on day one. I pointed out he became "all world" very quickly. Nowhere do I directly compare the two. In fact I don't believe I have ever posted a single comment specifically about Robinson.

I was just replying to your post to ask a general question. Many people seem to want to make the comparison.

My apologies. Should have just started posted my own comment.

 

[LACHAMP46]

I do think people need to quit defending GRob. This is a man's game, he's in his second season as a 2 overall pick in the draft, and this team needs him to play well.........2.5 seasons in this league with his talent and draft status.

Defending G-Rob...really hard at this point...as everyone now assumes the offense goes through him, and every player has career years...yet we just saw Linveal Joseph & #97 (Edwards or Flannigan) mame our QB and interior line...because our LT that has played 1.5 years (not 2.5) continues to get acclimated to the NFL game...Go ahead, find a LT that is near Gregs age playing as well.
We have poor QB play...Every facet of the offense will suffer while opponents stack the box with 8-9 men, keying in to any run, and not scared of a big arm that can stretch the field. Keenum can't throw..and he's worse than Austin Davis, only slightly better than Foles... Or is Gurley garbage too now because of his last 3 games? Imagine how his stats will look after 5 more games? PFF is gonna say he's the worst rookie back in the league...Who'll believe that?

Fisher is at fault for signing Foles and Keenum....He's also to blame for the linemen we selected in the draft....I think with the continuing of injuries, we can't see what this line would be...all we can do is continue to add talent (through the draft) for greater depth.

 

[Merlin]

Defending G-Rob...really hard at this point...as everyone now assumes the offense goes through him, and every player has career years...yet we just saw Linveal Joseph & #97 (Edwards or Flannigan) mame our QB and interior line...because our LT that has played 1.5 years (not 2.5) continues to get acclimated to the NFL game...Go ahead, find a LT that is near Gregs age playing as well.
We have poor QB play...Every facet of the offense will suffer while opponents stack the box with 8-9 men, keying in to any run, and not scared of a big arm that can stretch the field. Keenum can't throw..and he's worse than Austin Davis, only slightly better than Foles... Or is Gurley garbage too now because of his last 3 games? Imagine how his stats will look after 5 more games? PFF is gonna say he's the worst rookie back in the league...Who'll believe that?

Fisher is at fault for signing Foles and Keenum....He's also to blame for the linemen we selected in the draft....I think with the continuing of injuries, we can't see what this line would be...all we can do is continue to add talent (through the draft) for greater depth.

Let's keep it simple brother... GRob needs to play better. Even Fish, who is notorious in his support of his players in the media, admitted as much. I didn't say to light the dude on fire, or cut him, or other such nonsense. But he's a big boy who has struggled badly at a very, very important position. This team needs him to play better and soon.

Sure, QB needs to play better and I'm certainly not going to defend any of them. So do the WRs and TEs. OC also needs to do a better job I think. But that doesn't really change that we need a LT who we can depend on, it is a cornerstone position.

 

[FrankenRam]

@ChrisW
Okay.....not bad, not great....No big holes...but overall, okay, first start....Case had to scramble a few times....it was tough...Donnal went down pretty early.....

You show me ONE LT in the NFL that doesn't struggle....He's a grabber, but by no means is this guy some terrible player...Was this expected, maybe by the coaches but not the fans....

Didn't say he was some terrible player. I said (in short) he's not close to living up to his draft status. And I'll gladly stick to that sentiment. I wouldn't remotely expect him to be 'all world' status at this point in his career. It definitely takes time for a player to reach their full potential. But by the mid-point of their 2nd season, a #2 overall pick should be headed in that direction IF it's ever going to happen. IMO, he's simply isn't. At this point, I'd be happy if he turned out to be as 'good' as Alex Barron.

Changing subjects..w/ no GR reference intended at all. Just a general observation on the 'physical fitness' aspect you mentioned.....I sometimes wonder if all the work in the weight room players these days may be a contributor to all the injuries. It wasn't that awful long ago that a 300lb OL was considered HUGE. These days, that's just avg, and anything under people start talking about a guy needing to bulk up.

In the heyday of the 'Cardiac Cards' in the mid-70's, OL probably avg'd in the 250-280lb range. I think Dierdoff played most of his career in the 275-280 range. And I remember discussions of Bob Young (STL LG) being one of the few 'workout warriors' of those days. There were plenty of people that wondered why he spent so much time in the weight room.

Anyway, the point of all that is....assuming the avg player's 'frame size' hasn't measurably increased, what is the impact of all that bulked up muscle tissue on joints, tendons, ligaments, etc. I can't imagine how it could not be putting substantially more stress on those areas of the body (You sure don't bulk up tendons & ligaments in the weight room). Tack on all that extra strength/muscle empowering players to hit each much harder than used to be the case, and I have to wonder if the seemingly ever increasing rate of injuries isn't related to that in some way/shape/form.

 

[DR RAM]

Didn't say he was some terrible player. I said (in short) he's not close to living up to his draft status. And I'll gladly stick to that sentiment. I wouldn't remotely expect him to be 'all world' status at this point in his career. It definitely takes time for a player to reach their full potential. But by the mid-point of their 2nd season, a #2 overall pick should be headed in that direction IF it's ever going to happen. IMO, he's simply isn't. At this point, I'd be happy if he turned out to be as 'good' as Alex Barron.

Changing subjects..w/ no GR reference intended at all. Just a general observation on the 'physical fitness' aspect you mentioned.....I sometimes wonder if all the work in the weight room players these days may be a contributor to all the injuries. It wasn't that awful long ago that a 300lb OL was considered HUGE. These days, that's just avg, and anything under people start talking about a guy needing to bulk up.

In the heyday of the 'Cardiac Cards' in the mid-70's, OL probably avg'd in the 250-280lb range. I think Dierdoff played most of his career in the 275-280 range. And I remember discussions of Bob Young (STL LG) being one of the few 'workout warriors' of those days. There were plenty of people that wondered why he spent so much time in the weight room.

Anyway, the point of all that is....assuming the avg player's 'frame size' hasn't measurably increased, what is the impact of all that bulked up muscle tissue on joints, tendons, ligaments, etc. I can't imagine how it could not be putting substantially more stress on those areas of the body (You sure don't bulk up tendons & ligaments in the weight room). Tack on all that extra strength/muscle empowering players to hit each much harder than used to be the case, and I have to wonder if the seemingly ever increasing rate of injuries isn't related to that in some way/shape/form.

The good ole draft status curse.

 

[FrankenRam]

The good ole draft status curse.

Say people who are always looking for excuses for players that don't live up to their draft position....assuming, of course the team selecting them didn't just TOTALLY reach with the pick.

Probably not the best analogy, but is it that much different than buying a car? You don't go buy a Mercedes and accept it as 'the curse' if it performs like a Chevy.

 

[DR RAM]

Say people who are always looking for excuses for players that don't live up to their draft position....assuming, of course the team selecting them didn't just TOTALLY reach with the pick.

Probably not the best analogy, but is it that much different than buying a car? You don't go buy a Mercedes and accept it as 'the curse' if it performs like a Chevy.

It's a lot different than buying a car. Lol.

People that are always looking for excuses...even if that were true, as opposed to people who just want to bitch about certain players...or where they were drafted. It doesn't matter where anyone is drafted, once you make it to the NFL. Greg Robinson is our best option right now. Find me a better one.

 

[Jorgeh0605]

Changing subjects..w/ no GR reference intended at all. Just a general observation on the 'physical fitness' aspect you mentioned.....I sometimes wonder if all the work in the weight room players these days may be a contributor to all the injuries. It wasn't that awful long ago that a 300lb OL was considered HUGE. These days, that's just avg, and anything under people start talking about a guy needing to bulk up.

In the heyday of the 'Cardiac Cards' in the mid-70's, OL probably avg'd in the 250-280lb range. I think Dierdoff played most of his career in the 275-280 range. And I remember discussions of Bob Young (STL LG) being one of the few 'workout warriors' of those days. There were plenty of people that wondered why he spent so much time in the weight room.

Anyway, the point of all that is....assuming the avg player's 'frame size' hasn't measurably increased, what is the impact of all that bulked up muscle tissue on joints, tendons, ligaments, etc. I can't imagine how it could not be putting substantially more stress on those areas of the body (You sure don't bulk up tendons & ligaments in the weight room). Tack on all that extra strength/muscle empowering players to hit each much harder than used to be the case, and I have to wonder if the seemingly ever increasing rate of injuries isn't related to that in some way/shape/form.

Nope, you can certainly strengthen tendons and ligaments in the weight room and proper weightlifting has been known to reduce injuries and recovery times. I think injuries are more common because the team is allowed less time to practice and get their body used to the extra stress.

 

[FrankenRam]

It's a lot different than buying a car. Lol.

People that are always looking for excuses...even if that were true, as opposed to people who just want to bitch about certain players...or where they were drafted. It doesn't matter where anyone is drafted, once you make it to the NFL. Greg Robinson is our best option right now. Find me a better one.

If it doesn't matter, why do teams spend millions of dollars on a scouting depts and spend countless hours evaluating every college player with a pulse. They do so precisely because it does matter. And because, as a general rule of thumb, it pays off. Because more often than not a #2 overall pick will have a much better chance of having a good to great career than will a 3rd, 4th or later round pick. Is it a guarantee of a player's success or failure? Absolutely not. We've certainly experienced our fair share of busts for the last gaggle of years. But it most certainly does matter.

If it didn't matter, there would be absolutely no point in having a draft and scouting dept for every team in the league. You could just toss every college player's name in a hat and raffle them off....and pay them all the same whether they're an early raffle selection or the last one taken.

"It doesn't matter". LOL, for sure.

 

[DR RAM]

If it doesn't matter, why do teams spend millions of dollars on a scouting depts and spend countless hours evaluating every college player with a pulse. They do so precisely because it does matter. And because, as a general rule of thumb, it pays off. Because more often than not a #2 overall pick will have a much better chance of having a good to great career than will a 3rd, 4th or later round pick. Is it a guarantee of a player's success or failure? Absolutely not. We've certainly experienced our fair share of busts for the last gaggle of years. But it most certainly does matter.

If it didn't matter, there would be absolutely no point in having a draft and scouting dept for every team in the league. You could just toss every college player's name in a hat and raffle them off....and pay them all the same whether they're an early raffle selection or the last one taken.

"It doesn't matter". LOL, for sure.

I said, once you make it. Before, and during the draft process, of course. They picked the player, in this particular instance, in a future position of need, based on his size, athletic ability, and potential to be, not average, but above average. Remember, at the time, we still had Jake Long. Even our FO told everyone, that he'd need a little time, and that he's raw.

I'll back it up, once you make the team, the best player at that position should play. Like I said before, who is better than Robinson, right now?

He's played 26 total games, not all at the OT position, do you want to cut him?

 

[FrankenRam]

He's played 26 total games, not all at the OT position, do you want to cut him?

"He's played 26 total games" is the best thing that can be said for him at this point.

And if you'd actually read what I wrote, it's obvious I'm not looking to cut him at this point. For the 933rd time, I'm simply pointing out that, thus far, he's not close to living up to his draft selection. But if it makes it more palatable, by all means, feel free to substitute 'potential' for draft status.

 

[LACHAMP46]

You sure don't bulk up tendons & ligaments in the weight room

Resistance exercise DO strengthen the ligaments & tendons, just not as fast. Something about blood supply to these areas....

Nope, you can certainly strengthen tendons and ligaments in the weight room and proper weightlifting has been known to reduce injuries and recovery times. I think injuries are more common because the team is allowed less time to practice and get their body used to the extra stress.

Agreed,and I'd add with improper muscle development.Plus, the lack of serious stretching....

But we all agree the injuries in the last 7 years have crippled this team....and we either need to fix it, or have adequate backups ready to go....

 

[DR RAM]

"He's played 26 total games" is the best thing that can be said for him at this point.

And if you'd actually read what I wrote, it's obvious I'm not looking to cut him at this point. For the 933rd time, I'm simply pointing out that, thus far, he's not close to living up to his draft selection. But if it makes it more palatable, by all means, feel free to substitute 'potential' for draft status.

It wasn't obvious. OK, so we are back to the draft status thing. So, what would your criteria be, for playing up to his draft status? Are there any variables involved/allowed?

 

[OldSchool]

It wasn't obvious. OK, so we are back to the draft status thing. So, what would your criteria be, for playing up to his draft status? Are there any variables involved/allowed?

Arbitrary numbers set by the fan base! I'm sure every coach in sports is anxious to hear our demands for a player being called out on their draft status compared to their production.

 

[FrankenRam]

It wasn't obvious. OK, so we are back to the draft status thing. So, what would your criteria be, for playing up to his draft status? Are there any variables involved/allowed?

Can I enumerate a precise list. Of course not. Now you're just being argumentative.

I would add though.....even though I'm not remotely close to wanting to cut him, if I were Fisher, I would consider benching him for a game. One game. He was handed a starting job from day one. Just gift wrapped...no questions asked. Maybe if that were taken away from him, maybe it would light a bit of a fire under him. And it might also have the secondary benefit of sending a message to everyone else on the team.

And note, I emphasized 'consider'. I'm not entirely sure I'd do it. And as of today, they probably don't have enough healthy bodies to do it right now.

 

[DR RAM]

Can I enumerate a precise list. Of course not. Now you're just being argumentative.

I would add though.....even though I'm not remotely close to wanting to cut him, if I were Fisher, I would consider benching him for a game. One game. He was handed a starting job from day one. Just gift wrapped...no questions asked. Maybe if that were taken away from him, maybe it would light a bit of a fire under him. And it might also have the secondary benefit of sending a message to everyone else on the team.

And note, I emphasized 'consider'. I'm not entirely sure I'd do it. And as of today, they probably don't have enough healthy bodies to do it right now.

I'm being argumentative. No, I'm trying to foster a productive conversation about a particular player, and not just complain about him.

So, for the third and final time, who would you "consider" starting over Robinson, after you bench him?

I'll just read your response, if you give one, and not respond, so that I won't appear to you, as being argumentative.