Mad Mike: simply an outstanding listen

[DaveFan'51]

An interesting 6-page thread to revisit, from July of this year, on the subject of Mike Martz -

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/not-so-magic-mike.38453/

Here's the OP -
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There still seems to be lots of interest here in Mike Martz judging by some of the posts when his name comes up. Some think he was the best Rams head coach we ever had in St. Louis. His 53-32 (.624) record would seem to back that up. But then there's the 3-4 playoff record, the wacky timeouts, the bad draft picks, the front office feuds, the "Shoot, we'll fix that," etc. Here's a guy over at TST who doesn't think Mike was so magic. What say you?
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***(To see all the stats, and there are lots of them, click the link below and scroll down)***

http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/7/16/8985043/ramdudes-durdy-jawbs-not-so-magic-mike

Ramdude's Durdy Jawbs: Not So Magic Mike
By ramdude

"My name is ramdude, and this is my job today. I'll explore the Internet looking for dirt on people who deserve it — arrogant men or women who earn a living off the backs of civilized people like the rest of us. Now, get ready to get some dirt on ya." Tonight's episode is on Mike Martz.

Now that may sound remotely like something you have heard before - maybe on the Discovery Channel before September 2012??? If so, I'm sorry. Dave Barsky said I could.

While I've been a Rams fan since the late 60s, most of that time it has not been easy keeping track of the ins and outs of the team being at least half a continent away - plus I was busy raisin young-uns. I didn't know about TST until 2009. The Rams web site was pretty lame before that (but more informative about Rams history than now). And, of course, the Interwebs didn't exist for much of that time.

The reason I felt compelled to splain that is I have a severe reaction to the name Mike Martz. Whenever Fisher pulls a numb-nut and half the crowd here wants his ass canned, someone invariably mews from the back of the room, "We oughta get Martz!" That usually results in the contents of my stomach being spewed onto my keyboard - a strong reaction to say the least.

I don't remember all the details of his coachhood, but I do have three major takeaways. As I remember it, his arrogance manifested itself in three key ways:

1. Wasted or improperly used timeouts (clock management)
2. Wasted or improperly used referee challenges
3. Gradual, but methodical, eroding of the talent pool of one of the greatest teams in the NFL

One and two may not seem like that big a deal, but I remember them losing us close games back when we had the talent to make games close.

I've never really taken the time to study this period that started with a Super Bowl victory and ended 6 years later with Martz being told by management to stay the f#ck away from the team - ultimately being fired January 2, 2006. This ushered in the Linehan era we so fondly remember.

So, I'm about to undertake the Durdy Jawb of reviewing the Martzian period to see if my innards are justified in expelling my dinner upon his mention. If you'd like to come along, get ready to get some dirt on ya. Here. Put this on.

We start where all Internet searches start - here in the hallowed halls of Wikipedia. Now not everything here may be true. But if it supports your supposition - it's good enough!

Michael Martz (born May 13, 1951) started out as a high school football assistant coach, then bounced around several colleges as an assistant (offense oriented). He came to the LA Rams as a QB coach in 1992. When the Rams moved to the Lou in 1995, he moved too as the wide receivers coach - given credit for helping Isaac Bruce become BRUCE.

In 1997 and 1998, he was at the Washington Redskins as QB coach. That's where he hooked up with Trent Green. He and Green came to St Louis in 1999 when Dick Vermeil gave him his first shot as offensive coordinator. Vermeil was very gracious after the Super Bowl win and gave Martz full credit for his part in the win and for bringing along Kurt Warner so fast after he was pressed into service.

So everything is great so far, right? Martz knows how to develop players, and he appears to be very creative in using them - a la "Mad Mike." (Or was it that he had so MUCH talent, he couldn't fail with Vermeil ultimately in charge of things, and he took it all for granted?) Who cares? Life was grand, if a little teary. Be nice if the story ended there, undurdy.

So in 1999, the Rams went 13-3 and won a Super Bowl. Not surprisingly, Martz was named head coach of the Rams in February 2000 after Dick Vermeil temporarily retired from the NFL (only to resurface later with the Chiefs). What I was hoping to find was an overview of Martz' record for the next six years as head coach. Wiki, did not disappoint:

Note that in 2005, Martz took a medical leave of absence from the Rams after five games due to a bacterial infection in his heart. His assistant, Joe Vitt, took over the rest of the season, and the team went 6 and 10 for all of 2005 - the opposite of Martz' first season as head coach. He was prevented from interacting with the team during his leave, although he desperately tried to anyway. Ultimately, he was fired immediately after the 2005 season.

So on the surface, that don't look too bad: 3 winning seasons, 2 NFC West Championships - never worse than second, 4 play-off seasons with 3 total wins and a Super Bowl appearance (that we should have won). However, this was not today's NFC West. In fact the Cardinals and Seahawks replaced the Falcons, Saints and Panthers for the 2002 season. The NFC West was somewhat of a joke back then with teams bouncing up and down the division from year to year.

What is troubling is the fall-off in wins after the 2003 season. It's a fall-off that has continued for 11 years under 6 head and interim-head coaches. For what it's worth, it is a losing era that began with Mike Martz at the helm.

Challenge Challenged??
Getting back to my arrogance list above, I couldn't really find statistics on Martz' handling of time outs. However, time outs are interconnected to challenges since you have to burn one to get one. I was shocked to find that someone had kept track of every referee challenge Martz ever made as head coach along with the result. I am happy to provide the source: Pro-Football-Reference.com

Feel free to go visit and read about each one, should that trip your trigger. I'll just provide the numbers for each year here.

48 challenges/17 upheld/35% success rate

So Mike liked his challenges even though he was only 35% successful for his career. Many, you knew, were stupid right from the start, and some caused us to give up needed time outs or waste a precious challenge that was going to be needed later.

Here's the data on a few other coaches for their careers - from same source:

Pete Carroll - 45%
Jim Harbaugh - 34%
Bruce Arians - 62%
Jeff Fisher - 38%

Team Personnel Bleed-Off



Martz seemed to make enemies fairly easily. While the Rams management was weak and incompetent, they were strong enough to develop an extreme desire to separate him from the team that last year before firing him. And he definitely had issues with certain players. I remember some that he ran off, but I was particularly interested in seeing who else left, and when, during his reign.

I had to get good and durdy for this part. I compared each historical Rams roster year by year from 1999 to 2005 using the Rams web site data. Anybody on one year but missing the next year made my list. Now not everybody who left, left because of the coach. And not everybody who left was a star or in the prime of their career - far from it. But some were. And it happened under Martz' administration, so he gets the blame (or credit). Fair enough?

So these are the guys who were on the team the previous year but not the listed year. Some of the more significant ones are in bold. Maybe you have a few others.

***(Click link below to see the names of the players and scroll down)***

http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/7/16/8985043/ramdudes-durdy-jawbs-not-so-magic-mike

Here's the in-flow of First Round Draft Picks over the same period from Wiki. A few notables in bold.

2000/Trung Canidate/RB/Arizona
2001/Damione Lewis/DT/Miami (Florida)[a]
2001/Adam Archuleta/DB/Arizona State
2001/Ryan Pickett/DT/Ohio State
2002/ Robert Thomas/LB/UCLA
2003/Jimmy Kennedy/DT/Penn State
2004/Steven Jackson/RB/Oregon State
2005/Alex Barron/OT/Florida State

a The Rams traded Trent Green, and 2001 fourth round pick (150th overall) to Kansas City Chiefs for the Chiefs' 2001 first round pick (12th overall)
b The Rams traded Kevin Carter to Tennessee Titans for the Titans' 2001 first round pick (29th overall)
So, looks like we had more going out than coming in. Alex Barron - puuullllleze!

A discussion about Martz can't happen without mentioning the beating he allowed his quarterbacks to take. He nearly ended Kurt Warner's career and he DID end Marc Bulger's. He also de-emphasized the running game with Marshall Faulk.

Summary
In summary, I can see how he could be held in esteem for his offensive coordinator skills - helping to develop Isaac and Kurt didn't hurt. But I think his ego got the best of him as head coach, and the Rams are the worse for it. He never saw real success as an offensive coordinator at Detroit, San Fransisco or Chicago either. I think he likely made Lovey Smith's life miserable while they were in Chi-town together.

So in the future, my stomach may be able to handle Mike's mention without trying to launch itself out of my mouth. But I'll neva, eva agree that he deserves another stint with the Rams.

This is one man opinion! Not mine!

 

[Selassie I]

Mike is always so much fun to listen to. Thanks for posting that link!

He really brought me back to each of the plays he broke down with amazing detail. I sure miss that team and everything about it (Except That Woman and shaw of course).

Martz will probably always be my favorite Ram coach. I have a little note he wrote me framed in my office... see it everyday.


Mike said it himself... nobody is going to offer him the full control he would want in order to bring him out of retirement. I think that is the real hurdle. It's a shame... but I understand why the hurdle is there for both Mike and NFL teams.

Who knows though... $ can make the impossible come true sometimes. Never say never.

 

[Merlin]

He definitely is only to be trusted with a couple positions in terms of his eye for talent: QB and WR. But I do think he fits with this staff. Fish is a great dude that coaches like to work for, and might be compatible with Mike now that he's struggled so badly to put together a good offense.

As I mentioned before the thing I like about MM is that he isn't going to be hired away immediately as a head coach. He'd probably settle in and want to finish his career in that OC role doing what he loves, much like Williams. This offense would score points, which means this team that has everything else figured out would be an effin juggernaut next season. Just give Mad Mike one camp to whip this group into shape, and keep him away from personnel decisions aside from QB and WR.

 

[nighttrain]

He definitely is only to be trusted with a couple positions in terms of his eye for talent: QB and WR. But I do think he fits with this staff. Fish is a great dude that coaches like to work for, and might be compatible with Mike now that he's struggled so badly to put together a good offense.

As I mentioned before the thing I like about MM is that he isn't going to be hired away immediately as a head coach. He'd probably settle in and want to finish his career in that OC role doing what he loves, much like Williams. This offense would score points, which means this team that has everything else figured out would be an effin juggernaut next season. Just give Mad Mike one camp to whip this group into shape, and keep him away from personnel decisions aside from QB and WR.

IF and only if Fisher gives him control of the offense, don;t see it happening, but i would love it
train

 

[Ram Quixote]

This is the point in which I remind everyone that Shaw and Georgia ALWAYS deferred personnel decisions to the HC, whoever it was. And putting a rookie HC in charge of personnel is ALWAYS and bad idea. But that wouldn't happen now. Snisher is in charge of all personnel moves; Martz might have input over QBs, but that's all.

Imagine what Martz might do with Sean Mannion.:mrburnsevil:

And remember what he did with Marc Bulger. A 6th round pick!

 

[thirteen28]

Fan-freakin-tastic listen, thanks for posting @Merlin.

The point he made when discussing how Vermeil got a bit worried about his aggressiveness really hit home, because I think that is something that has held Fisher-coached teams back on offense during his entire time in the league. Offensively, Fisher is primarily concerned with preventing turnovers and playing it safe, and to such a degree that it inhibits the team's ability to score points and move the ball. That mentality is reflected in his choices for OC and it trickles down to the players, many of whom are never pushed to be true playmakers. On the flip-side, Martz's mentality of going for it and being offensively aggressive trickled down to his players as well. While it certainly helped to have a buttload of talent to work with, that offense would not have been as good as it was without the attacking mentality he instilled.

I enjoyed listening to that recollection regarding the Atlanta game too, brought back some fond memories and more good wisdom. That was the first game that year when I began to think the Rams might be something special. The previous win over the Ravens had been nice, but this game was different. Martz really went for Atlanta's jugular in that game - and got it. The game was effectively over at halftime, none of this keep it close and win in the 4th quarter stuff that reduces your margin of error to something exceedingly small and, ironically, puts more pressure on the offense since they have to make not screwing up their first and foremost concern.

Really wish we knew what he thought about Sean Mannion ... and wish he could work with him to see what he's got. I have always been more than hesitant to consider his return as an OC due to a number of issues he's had with others over the year, and his lack of knowledge sometimes as to when to take the foot off the gas pedal. This is the kind of thing, along with our offensive ineptitude, that makes me reconsider. Fisher's approach to offense is the polar opposite of Martz's, and thus it doesn't come as much surprise that the resulting output is now also the polar opposite.

 

[RaminExile]

The criticisms guys have of Martz are really from his HC perirmance, not his OC performance. Clock management, challenges, weird timeouts and roster management aren't an issue if he's an OC.

Him as OC, GW as DC and I'm all in. If Fisher won't take that (and give Mike full control cRe offense play calling etc) id tell him to hit the street.

I suppose I can dream.

 

[RamFan503]

Frustration/desperation can create strange bedfellows.

You mean like Spags and McDaniels?

 

[ramsince62]

I just can't see Fisher's and Martz' ego's fitting into the same meeting room. Martz alluded to this in the audio, it would have to be the right situation for him to consider returning. It would be on Fisher to concede. I would love to see it happen but i'm very skeptical that:
A) Martz would return with little say in personnel
B) Fisher will concede a gameplan to any OC

Having said that, Jeff needs to concede or he's going to coach himself out of the league for good IMO.

If nothing else, (they) should hire Martz to find a QB, he seems to have the eye for it.

I was also astonished to hear Martz call Foles a "good" QB, where does that come from?

 

[Amitar]

So no other top OC would come to the Rams, the offense is in shambles yet Martz doesn't have a chance to be the Rams HC? This is madness, hire him now. But then again the Rams might end up with a losing season with him. Martz OC Williams DC, now that's a winning combination. Just Do It.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

So no other top OC would come to the Rams, the offense is in shambles yet Martz doesn't have a chance to be the Rams HC? This is madness, hire him now. But then again the Rams might end up with a losing season with him. Martz OC Williams DC, now that's a winning combination. Just Do It.

Match made in heaven if you're a Rams fan. Top DC, Top OC and Good Head coach. The irony of it all is this. Fisher is a laid back easy going, defensive minded coach. He hires a coach, in Gregg Williams, with a personality and coaching style that is very similar to Mike Martz, to run his defense. Yet he refuses to do the same thing with offense.

I guarantee that Martz can make this offense score more points than it has averaged this year. In fact I guarantee that he could get the same personnel up to league average.

 

[blue4]

I love some of those criticisms. "Only" 3-4 in the playoffs, and mismanagement of the clock and timeouts. As opposed to the no playoffs ever and mismanagement of the clock that we have now. I guess Fisher is okay on his timeouts though so there's that. Say what you will about Martz he's still one of the four the most successful HC we've ever had. Vermeil only rates because of the one year, and Martz had a huge hand in that as well. Winning percentage, percentage of years we made the playoffs, super bowl appearance. He's an offensive coach sure, but everyone forgets he blew up and rebuilt our defense plus made a knockout DC hire. Even taking Marmie into account, it's still far and away more success than most in this organization history. And leaps and bounds better than the mess we have now. I'd take him back in a heartbeat, and learn to deal with the occasional head scratching challenge or timeout. It's better than missing the playoffs every year.

 

[MTRamsFan]

I always liked Martz as a coach. He is best suited to be an OC vs. an HC. I look at Fisher's style as a head coach and IMO learned his coaching style primarily from from playing for Mike Ditka/ Buddy Ryan and coaching for Ryan. They were control freaks regarding all facets of the game, which I think has hurt his overall success. If he would let his coordinators just coach and call plays without restrictions I think you would see a more dynamic team, especially with the offense. Most don't object to his style with the defense and special teams, but tying the OC's hands with his philosophy just doesn't cut it. When you look back at the search, after Shotty left, most available coordinators probably scoffed at the opportunity to coach for Fisher knowing how he controls everything. He needs to let coaches "coach" and players "play." He allows Williams and Fassel to be creative, so why not Boras? Give him some opportunity to be creative and utilize the talent on the offense.

Just a thought. Hogtying the play calling to a run/pass ratio to 75/25 isn't working, so allow Boras to open the last few chapters of the playbook relating to the passing game. Who knows, maybe we see some actual offensive production. At this point teams know we aren't/can't throw so they will continue to stack the box and dare us to throw. Well... let's throw first to setup the run because the run first-throw second plan isn't working. I would rather see Case running around trying to create something than just hand off and watch Gurley get slammed 3 yards in the backfield.

 

[thirteen28]

Match made in heaven if you're a Rams fan. Top DC, Top OC and Good Head coach. The irony of it all is this. Fisher is a laid back easy going, defensive minded coach. He hires a coach, in Gregg Williams, with a personality and coaching style that is very similar to Mike Martz, to run his defense. Yet he refuses to do the same thing with offense.

I guarantee that Martz can make this offense score more points than it has averaged this year. In fact I guarantee that he could get the same personnel up to league average.

I don't know what Mannion's ceiling is either. But I guarantee Martz could coach him up to it.

 

[Rmfnlt]

I was also astonished to hear Martz call Foles a "good" QB, where does that come from?

He might be...

 

[nighttrain]

He might be...

Probably referring to the pre Rams Foles
train

 

[Merlin]

He might be...

Yeah, that's the worst thing about missing on a coordinator hire. Now we don't know about some of the pieces and whether they're any good or capable of fitting into the future, notably QB.

If Boras is up to snuff it should result in the QBs looking a lot better, i.e. the first and second reads and if necessary the checkdowns might actually be there due to nice play design and gameplanning. But still I gotta think this staff needs some help in the QB expertise area because this offseason is so packed with key decisions that will affect the franchise for many years.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Yeah, that's the worst thing about missing on a coordinator hire. Now we don't know about some of the pieces and whether they're any good or capable of fitting into the future, notably QB.

That was my point... if the current cocahing is bad, we really don't know how good (or bad) a lot of these players are (can be).

"If Boras is up to snuff it should result in the QBs looking a lot better, i.e. the first and second reads and if necessary the checkdowns might actually be there due to nice play design and gameplanning. But still I gotta think this staff needs some help in the QB expertise area because this offseason is so packed with key decisions that will affect the franchise for many years.

Well, this is what Boras had to say regarding his QB coaching expertise:

“I’m not gonna pretend to go in there and be a quarterback coach,” Boras said. “Of course, I sat in the quarterback room (Wednesday) and was involved with it, but I’m not gonna sit there and correct his footwork and things like that. I mean, we have a quarterback coach (Chris Weinke) doing that.”

[/QUOTE]

 

[Ram Quixote]

So, if Bill Belichik can run a high-flying Offense, why can't Fisher?

Uh, QB issues aside, that is.

 

[thirteen28]

So, if Bill Belichik can run a high-flying Offense, why can't Fisher?

Uh, QB issues aside, that is.

That's the fundamental philosophical change that Fisher needs and that I've been banging the table about. Not necessarily to a high-flying offense, but at least one that is more aggressive than what his teams have previously ran, and one that is geared toward scoring more points instead of keeping close. One that gives the team a bigger margin for error.

I use former Rams coach John Robinson as an example of someone who did just that. Up until the mid-80's Robinson's offenses, both college and pro, were always conservative offenses based on running the ball. Passing was somewhat of an afterthought and never a point of emphasis. Then, in 1986 they went and got Jim Everett as QB, and the next year they went out and hired Ernie Zampese as OC (his previous gig was at San Diego running the offense for Don Coryell). After some growing pains installing the offense in 1987, they got it going late in the season, and for the next few years had one of the best offenses in football, including a dynamic and very effective aerial attack. And the irony is that they still were very effective running the football, despite trading away Eric Dickerson and playing the far less talented Greg Bell at RB. Teams could never load the box back then, with Everett at QB and Henry Ellard and Flipper Anderson on the outside. And because of that, Bell found plenty of running room when it was needed.

Man I wish Fisher had the courage to do what Robinson did.