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Mad Mike: simply an outstanding listen
- Thread starter Merlin
- Start date
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Elmgrovegnome
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Legatron4
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- Name
- Wes
Give this genius total control of the offense. That's the only way I keep Fisher. Is if he gives a HIGHLY experience OC absolute power over the offense. Let him bring in who he wants. Fisher isn't terrible coach, but his offense always sucks.
PA Ram
Pro Bowler
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I love to listen to Martz. That guy knows offense.
I like what he said about Vermeil on the 3rd and 4. On the 30 of the opposing team. Martz wants to go for a touchdown--knowing the defense if playing press coverage but Vermeil cuts in because he just wants to go for a first and maybe settle for kicking a field goal. They get the T.D. to Torry and Vermeil pretty much tells Martz--you got it. He was smart enough to let Martz do his thing even if it scared him and went against his more conservative instincts.
I like what he said about Vermeil on the 3rd and 4. On the 30 of the opposing team. Martz wants to go for a touchdown--knowing the defense if playing press coverage but Vermeil cuts in because he just wants to go for a first and maybe settle for kicking a field goal. They get the T.D. to Torry and Vermeil pretty much tells Martz--you got it. He was smart enough to let Martz do his thing even if it scared him and went against his more conservative instincts.
jap
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Mike may need help with the OL. He was blessed to have a great OL coach during the GSOT years, but I don't know if he himself is great at OL choices/management. He knows WR's, QB's, and RB's. He does not use TE's as receivers as much as I would prefer. He definitely would maximize TGII's talents as a receiver. He may be able to draw Henry Ellard to return as our WR coach.
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- mojo
I just can't see Fisher's and Martz' ego's fitting into the same meeting room. Martz alluded to this in the audio, it would have to be the right situation for him to consider returning. It would be on Fisher to concede. I would love to see it happen but i'm very skeptical that:
A) Martz would return with little say in personnel
B) Fisher will concede a gameplan to any OC
Having said that, Jeff needs to concede or he's going to coach himself out of the league for good IMO.
A) Martz would return with little say in personnel
B) Fisher will concede a gameplan to any OC
Having said that, Jeff needs to concede or he's going to coach himself out of the league for good IMO.
jap
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JonRam99
Hall of Fame
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- Jonathan
LOL, you are correct, sir!
nighttrain
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Todd59
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This man is No. 1 with a bullet on my list when it comes to interviewing for and OC next year. It'll probably not happen, Fisher just doesn't seem like the guy to give up that much control to an assistant. But geez, the years when Mad Mike was running the offense are some of my favorite memories of this rams team.
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- Dave
This says it all GSOT "..Once in a life-time you get so many unselfish, Great Players on one Team... " !!!
No one well ever be able to take that away from the Rams!!
I wish Fisher could make it work with Mike!!
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Yeah... it's a free country and all... but I get a tad agitated when I see fans pine for a Fisher/Martz marriage.
Anything can happen... sure... but I'd peg the chances of that happening at 1%
Carry on if you must... the offensive solution probably lies with someone else.
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- Name
- Peter
An interesting 6-page thread to revisit, from July of this year, on the subject of Mike Martz -
http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/not-so-magic-mike.38453/
Here's the OP -
*********************************************************
There still seems to be lots of interest here in Mike Martz judging by some of the posts when his name comes up. Some think he was the best Rams head coach we ever had in St. Louis. His 53-32 (.624) record would seem to back that up. But then there's the 3-4 playoff record, the wacky timeouts, the bad draft picks, the front office feuds, the "Shoot, we'll fix that," etc. Here's a guy over at TST who doesn't think Mike was so magic. What say you?
***************************************************
***(To see all the stats, and there are lots of them, click the link below and scroll down)***
http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/7/16/8985043/ramdudes-durdy-jawbs-not-so-magic-mike
Ramdude's Durdy Jawbs: Not So Magic Mike
By ramdude
"My name is ramdude, and this is my job today. I'll explore the Internet looking for dirt on people who deserve it — arrogant men or women who earn a living off the backs of civilized people like the rest of us. Now, get ready to get some dirt on ya." Tonight's episode is on Mike Martz.
Now that may sound remotely like something you have heard before - maybe on the Discovery Channel before September 2012??? If so, I'm sorry. Dave Barsky said I could.
While I've been a Rams fan since the late 60s, most of that time it has not been easy keeping track of the ins and outs of the team being at least half a continent away - plus I was busy raisin young-uns. I didn't know about TST until 2009. The Rams web site was pretty lame before that (but more informative about Rams history than now). And, of course, the Interwebs didn't exist for much of that time.
The reason I felt compelled to splain that is I have a severe reaction to the name Mike Martz. Whenever Fisher pulls a numb-nut and half the crowd here wants his ass canned, someone invariably mews from the back of the room, "We oughta get Martz!" That usually results in the contents of my stomach being spewed onto my keyboard - a strong reaction to say the least.
I don't remember all the details of his coachhood, but I do have three major takeaways. As I remember it, his arrogance manifested itself in three key ways:
I've never really taken the time to study this period that started with a Super Bowl victory and ended 6 years later with Martz being told by management to stay the f#ck away from the team - ultimately being fired January 2, 2006. This ushered in the Linehan era we so fondly remember.
So, I'm about to undertake the Durdy Jawb of reviewing the Martzian period to see if my innards are justified in expelling my dinner upon his mention. If you'd like to come along, get ready to get some dirt on ya. Here. Put this on.
We start where all Internet searches start - here in the hallowed halls of Wikipedia. Now not everything here may be true. But if it supports your supposition - it's good enough!
Michael Martz (born May 13, 1951) started out as a high school football assistant coach, then bounced around several colleges as an assistant (offense oriented). He came to the LA Rams as a QB coach in 1992. When the Rams moved to the Lou in 1995, he moved too as the wide receivers coach - given credit for helping Isaac Bruce become BRUCE.
In 1997 and 1998, he was at the Washington Redskins as QB coach. That's where he hooked up with Trent Green. He and Green came to St Louis in 1999 when Dick Vermeil gave him his first shot as offensive coordinator. Vermeil was very gracious after the Super Bowl win and gave Martz full credit for his part in the win and for bringing along Kurt Warner so fast after he was pressed into service.
So everything is great so far, right? Martz knows how to develop players, and he appears to be very creative in using them - a la "Mad Mike." (Or was it that he had so MUCH talent, he couldn't fail with Vermeil ultimately in charge of things, and he took it all for granted?) Who cares? Life was grand, if a little teary. Be nice if the story ended there, undurdy.
So in 1999, the Rams went 13-3 and won a Super Bowl. Not surprisingly, Martz was named head coach of the Rams in February 2000 after Dick Vermeil temporarily retired from the NFL (only to resurface later with the Chiefs). What I was hoping to find was an overview of Martz' record for the next six years as head coach. Wiki, did not disappoint:
Note that in 2005, Martz took a medical leave of absence from the Rams after five games due to a bacterial infection in his heart. His assistant, Joe Vitt, took over the rest of the season, and the team went 6 and 10 for all of 2005 - the opposite of Martz' first season as head coach. He was prevented from interacting with the team during his leave, although he desperately tried to anyway. Ultimately, he was fired immediately after the 2005 season.
So on the surface, that don't look too bad: 3 winning seasons, 2 NFC West Championships - never worse than second, 4 play-off seasons with 3 total wins and a Super Bowl appearance (that we should have won). However, this was not today's NFC West. In fact the Cardinals and Seahawks replaced the Falcons, Saints and Panthers for the 2002 season. The NFC West was somewhat of a joke back then with teams bouncing up and down the division from year to year.
What is troubling is the fall-off in wins after the 2003 season. It's a fall-off that has continued for 11 years under 6 head and interim-head coaches. For what it's worth, it is a losing era that began with Mike Martz at the helm.
Challenge Challenged??
Getting back to my arrogance list above, I couldn't really find statistics on Martz' handling of time outs. However, time outs are interconnected to challenges since you have to burn one to get one. I was shocked to find that someone had kept track of every referee challenge Martz ever made as head coach along with the result. I am happy to provide the source: Pro-Football-Reference.com
Feel free to go visit and read about each one, should that trip your trigger. I'll just provide the numbers for each year here.
48 challenges/17 upheld/35% success rate
So Mike liked his challenges even though he was only 35% successful for his career. Many, you knew, were stupid right from the start, and some caused us to give up needed time outs or waste a precious challenge that was going to be needed later.
Here's the data on a few other coaches for their careers - from same source:
Pete Carroll - 45%
Jim Harbaugh - 34%
Bruce Arians - 62%
Jeff Fisher - 38%
Team Personnel Bleed-Off
Martz seemed to make enemies fairly easily. While the Rams management was weak and incompetent, they were strong enough to develop an extreme desire to separate him from the team that last year before firing him. And he definitely had issues with certain players. I remember some that he ran off, but I was particularly interested in seeing who else left, and when, during his reign.
I had to get good and durdy for this part. I compared each historical Rams roster year by year from 1999 to 2005 using the Rams web site data. Anybody on one year but missing the next year made my list. Now not everybody who left, left because of the coach. And not everybody who left was a star or in the prime of their career - far from it. But some were. And it happened under Martz' administration, so he gets the blame (or credit). Fair enough?
So these are the guys who were on the team the previous year but not the listed year. Some of the more significant ones are in bold. Maybe you have a few others.
***(Click link below to see the names of the players and scroll down)***
http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/7/16/8985043/ramdudes-durdy-jawbs-not-so-magic-mike
Here's the in-flow of First Round Draft Picks over the same period from Wiki. A few notables in bold.
2000/Trung Canidate/RB/Arizona
2001/Damione Lewis/DT/Miami (Florida)[a]
2001/Adam Archuleta/DB/Arizona State
2001/Ryan Pickett/DT/Ohio State
2002/ Robert Thomas/LB/UCLA
2003/Jimmy Kennedy/DT/Penn State
2004/Steven Jackson/RB/Oregon State
2005/Alex Barron/OT/Florida State
a The Rams traded Trent Green, and 2001 fourth round pick (150th overall) to Kansas City Chiefs for the Chiefs' 2001 first round pick (12th overall)
b The Rams traded Kevin Carter to Tennessee Titans for the Titans' 2001 first round pick (29th overall)
So, looks like we had more going out than coming in. Alex Barron - puuullllleze!
A discussion about Martz can't happen without mentioning the beating he allowed his quarterbacks to take. He nearly ended Kurt Warner's career and he DID end Marc Bulger's. He also de-emphasized the running game with Marshall Faulk.
Summary
In summary, I can see how he could be held in esteem for his offensive coordinator skills - helping to develop Isaac and Kurt didn't hurt. But I think his ego got the best of him as head coach, and the Rams are the worse for it. He never saw real success as an offensive coordinator at Detroit, San Fransisco or Chicago either. I think he likely made Lovey Smith's life miserable while they were in Chi-town together.
So in the future, my stomach may be able to handle Mike's mention without trying to launch itself out of my mouth. But I'll neva, eva agree that he deserves another stint with the Rams.
http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/not-so-magic-mike.38453/
Here's the OP -
*********************************************************
There still seems to be lots of interest here in Mike Martz judging by some of the posts when his name comes up. Some think he was the best Rams head coach we ever had in St. Louis. His 53-32 (.624) record would seem to back that up. But then there's the 3-4 playoff record, the wacky timeouts, the bad draft picks, the front office feuds, the "Shoot, we'll fix that," etc. Here's a guy over at TST who doesn't think Mike was so magic. What say you?
***************************************************
***(To see all the stats, and there are lots of them, click the link below and scroll down)***
http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/7/16/8985043/ramdudes-durdy-jawbs-not-so-magic-mike
Ramdude's Durdy Jawbs: Not So Magic Mike
By ramdude
"My name is ramdude, and this is my job today. I'll explore the Internet looking for dirt on people who deserve it — arrogant men or women who earn a living off the backs of civilized people like the rest of us. Now, get ready to get some dirt on ya." Tonight's episode is on Mike Martz.
Now that may sound remotely like something you have heard before - maybe on the Discovery Channel before September 2012??? If so, I'm sorry. Dave Barsky said I could.
While I've been a Rams fan since the late 60s, most of that time it has not been easy keeping track of the ins and outs of the team being at least half a continent away - plus I was busy raisin young-uns. I didn't know about TST until 2009. The Rams web site was pretty lame before that (but more informative about Rams history than now). And, of course, the Interwebs didn't exist for much of that time.
The reason I felt compelled to splain that is I have a severe reaction to the name Mike Martz. Whenever Fisher pulls a numb-nut and half the crowd here wants his ass canned, someone invariably mews from the back of the room, "We oughta get Martz!" That usually results in the contents of my stomach being spewed onto my keyboard - a strong reaction to say the least.
I don't remember all the details of his coachhood, but I do have three major takeaways. As I remember it, his arrogance manifested itself in three key ways:
- Wasted or improperly used timeouts (clock management)
- Wasted or improperly used referee challenges
- Gradual, but methodical, eroding of the talent pool of one of the greatest teams in the NFL
I've never really taken the time to study this period that started with a Super Bowl victory and ended 6 years later with Martz being told by management to stay the f#ck away from the team - ultimately being fired January 2, 2006. This ushered in the Linehan era we so fondly remember.
So, I'm about to undertake the Durdy Jawb of reviewing the Martzian period to see if my innards are justified in expelling my dinner upon his mention. If you'd like to come along, get ready to get some dirt on ya. Here. Put this on.
We start where all Internet searches start - here in the hallowed halls of Wikipedia. Now not everything here may be true. But if it supports your supposition - it's good enough!
Michael Martz (born May 13, 1951) started out as a high school football assistant coach, then bounced around several colleges as an assistant (offense oriented). He came to the LA Rams as a QB coach in 1992. When the Rams moved to the Lou in 1995, he moved too as the wide receivers coach - given credit for helping Isaac Bruce become BRUCE.
In 1997 and 1998, he was at the Washington Redskins as QB coach. That's where he hooked up with Trent Green. He and Green came to St Louis in 1999 when Dick Vermeil gave him his first shot as offensive coordinator. Vermeil was very gracious after the Super Bowl win and gave Martz full credit for his part in the win and for bringing along Kurt Warner so fast after he was pressed into service.
So everything is great so far, right? Martz knows how to develop players, and he appears to be very creative in using them - a la "Mad Mike." (Or was it that he had so MUCH talent, he couldn't fail with Vermeil ultimately in charge of things, and he took it all for granted?) Who cares? Life was grand, if a little teary. Be nice if the story ended there, undurdy.
So in 1999, the Rams went 13-3 and won a Super Bowl. Not surprisingly, Martz was named head coach of the Rams in February 2000 after Dick Vermeil temporarily retired from the NFL (only to resurface later with the Chiefs). What I was hoping to find was an overview of Martz' record for the next six years as head coach. Wiki, did not disappoint:
Note that in 2005, Martz took a medical leave of absence from the Rams after five games due to a bacterial infection in his heart. His assistant, Joe Vitt, took over the rest of the season, and the team went 6 and 10 for all of 2005 - the opposite of Martz' first season as head coach. He was prevented from interacting with the team during his leave, although he desperately tried to anyway. Ultimately, he was fired immediately after the 2005 season.
So on the surface, that don't look too bad: 3 winning seasons, 2 NFC West Championships - never worse than second, 4 play-off seasons with 3 total wins and a Super Bowl appearance (that we should have won). However, this was not today's NFC West. In fact the Cardinals and Seahawks replaced the Falcons, Saints and Panthers for the 2002 season. The NFC West was somewhat of a joke back then with teams bouncing up and down the division from year to year.
What is troubling is the fall-off in wins after the 2003 season. It's a fall-off that has continued for 11 years under 6 head and interim-head coaches. For what it's worth, it is a losing era that began with Mike Martz at the helm.
Challenge Challenged??
Getting back to my arrogance list above, I couldn't really find statistics on Martz' handling of time outs. However, time outs are interconnected to challenges since you have to burn one to get one. I was shocked to find that someone had kept track of every referee challenge Martz ever made as head coach along with the result. I am happy to provide the source: Pro-Football-Reference.com
Feel free to go visit and read about each one, should that trip your trigger. I'll just provide the numbers for each year here.
48 challenges/17 upheld/35% success rate
So Mike liked his challenges even though he was only 35% successful for his career. Many, you knew, were stupid right from the start, and some caused us to give up needed time outs or waste a precious challenge that was going to be needed later.
Here's the data on a few other coaches for their careers - from same source:
Pete Carroll - 45%
Jim Harbaugh - 34%
Bruce Arians - 62%
Jeff Fisher - 38%
Team Personnel Bleed-Off
Martz seemed to make enemies fairly easily. While the Rams management was weak and incompetent, they were strong enough to develop an extreme desire to separate him from the team that last year before firing him. And he definitely had issues with certain players. I remember some that he ran off, but I was particularly interested in seeing who else left, and when, during his reign.
I had to get good and durdy for this part. I compared each historical Rams roster year by year from 1999 to 2005 using the Rams web site data. Anybody on one year but missing the next year made my list. Now not everybody who left, left because of the coach. And not everybody who left was a star or in the prime of their career - far from it. But some were. And it happened under Martz' administration, so he gets the blame (or credit). Fair enough?
So these are the guys who were on the team the previous year but not the listed year. Some of the more significant ones are in bold. Maybe you have a few others.
***(Click link below to see the names of the players and scroll down)***
http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/7/16/8985043/ramdudes-durdy-jawbs-not-so-magic-mike
Here's the in-flow of First Round Draft Picks over the same period from Wiki. A few notables in bold.
2000/Trung Canidate/RB/Arizona
2001/Damione Lewis/DT/Miami (Florida)[a]
2001/Adam Archuleta/DB/Arizona State
2001/Ryan Pickett/DT/Ohio State
2002/ Robert Thomas/LB/UCLA
2003/Jimmy Kennedy/DT/Penn State
2004/Steven Jackson/RB/Oregon State
2005/Alex Barron/OT/Florida State
a The Rams traded Trent Green, and 2001 fourth round pick (150th overall) to Kansas City Chiefs for the Chiefs' 2001 first round pick (12th overall)
b The Rams traded Kevin Carter to Tennessee Titans for the Titans' 2001 first round pick (29th overall)
So, looks like we had more going out than coming in. Alex Barron - puuullllleze!
A discussion about Martz can't happen without mentioning the beating he allowed his quarterbacks to take. He nearly ended Kurt Warner's career and he DID end Marc Bulger's. He also de-emphasized the running game with Marshall Faulk.
Summary
In summary, I can see how he could be held in esteem for his offensive coordinator skills - helping to develop Isaac and Kurt didn't hurt. But I think his ego got the best of him as head coach, and the Rams are the worse for it. He never saw real success as an offensive coordinator at Detroit, San Fransisco or Chicago either. I think he likely made Lovey Smith's life miserable while they were in Chi-town together.
So in the future, my stomach may be able to handle Mike's mention without trying to launch itself out of my mouth. But I'll neva, eva agree that he deserves another stint with the Rams.