Greg Robinson's move a work in progress/Wagoner

[Loyal]

Already posted in this thread: http://ramsondemand.com/threads/greg-robinsons-move-a-work-in-progress-wagoner.26878/#post-334094

Sorry man...I looked through the older threads and missed it.

 

[jjab360]

Did anybody else read the title "I'm not up to Pace" as in not up to Orlando Pace, who he's been drawing comparisons to? The capitalization of pace there is very confusing lol.

 

[Boffo97]

Sorry man...I looked through the older threads and missed it.

No worries. It happens to all of us, especially since that article wasn't the main post of its thread, but posted later because it related to the other article.

 

[Akrasian]

Did anybody else read the title "I'm not up to Pace" as in not up to Orlando Pace, who he's been drawing comparisons to? The capitalization of pace there is very confusing lol.

And I found it refreshing that he was so modest as to not want to be compared to an all time great. Ah, the joys of poorly written headlines. (done by the media, not the OP)

 

[SierraRam]

Did anybody else read the title "I'm not up to Pace" as in not up to Orlando Pace, who he's been drawing comparisons to? The capitalization of pace there is very confusing lol.

Ha! That's the way I saw it too. I'd settle for him being up to Timmerman for now.

 

[Oldgeek]

He's the one being hard on himself. I like that better than a guy loafing along on his natural talent. It is very early in the process, so let's give it some time. But I'll admit, I'm not a fan of drafting guys high and then asking them to change positions. The Rams haven't had good luck with that in the past.

 

[brokeu91]

Sorry man...I looked through the older threads and missed it.

 

[Prime Time]

I don't know what the word "stuggles" means but Florio seems to be on quite a roll today. I don't remember any "league insiders" having had their "doubts about Robinson’s ability to be dominant at the next level." Mostly what I remember is that most if not all draftniks had him as a top 3 pick.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Robinson stuggles with NFL transition
Posted by Mike Florio on June 22, 2014

AP

When the Rams made Greg Robinson the second overall pick in the draft, it was assumed he’d play left tackle. Only days later, G.M. Les Snead explained that Robinson may play guard.

Since then, it’s become more clear that Robinson will indeed play guard as a rookie. It’s also becoming clear that he’s having a hard time with the transition.

“It’s frustrating that I’m not up to pace right now because the playbook is more intense and things are changing but once I get back to where I’m comfortable, things will calm down and I can be myself out there,” Robinson said recently, via Nick Wagoner of ESPN.com. “I didn’t know what to expect, honestly. I put a lot of pressure on myself because I like to challenge myself. It’s something I want to do and just stand out to the coaches and let them be comfortable with their choice.”

While tackle is regarded as the more difficult position, Robinson is learning that guard has its own challenges.

“It’s just everything happens faster inside,” Robinson said. “Outside you have a little more time to kick. The guys are faster but these guys are just quick and trained to rush the passer. It’s just about keeping my feet working and knowing when to pull. Right now it’s a lot of thinking going on, it causes me to move a little slower. Once I get up to speed, I can move with the snap count and stuff like that.”

Robinson’s struggles aren’t a complete surprise to league insiders who had their doubts about Robinson’s ability to be dominant at the next level. Robinson’s reference to the intensity of the playbook won’t surprise skeptics, either, given that Robinson dealt with a limited range of plays and protections at Auburn. It makes the Rams’ risk even bigger, especially since they’ve moved Robinson to a position that typically doesn’t demand a top-five draft pedigree.

There’s still a long way to go until Robinson faces NFL-caliber talent in a game that counts. Until then, the best preparation may come from facing the team’s other first-round pick — defensive tackle Aaron Donald.

 

[jjab360]

I don't know what the word "stuggles" means but Florio seems to be on quite a roll today. I don't remember any "league insiders" having had their "doubts about Robinson’s ability to be dominant at the next level." Mostly what I remember is that most if not all draftniks had him as a top 3 pick.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Robinson stuggles with NFL transition
Posted by Mike Florio on June 22, 2014

AP

When the Rams made Greg Robinson the second overall pick in the draft, it was assumed he’d play left tackle. Only days later, G.M. Les Snead explained that Robinson may play guard.

Since then, it’s become more clear that Robinson will indeed play guard as a rookie. It’s also becoming clear that he’s having a hard time with the transition.

“It’s frustrating that I’m not up to pace right now because the playbook is more intense and things are changing but once I get back to where I’m comfortable, things will calm down and I can be myself out there,” Robinson said recently, via Nick Wagoner of ESPN.com. “I didn’t know what to expect, honestly. I put a lot of pressure on myself because I like to challenge myself. It’s something I want to do and just stand out to the coaches and let them be comfortable with their choice.”

While tackle is regarded as the more difficult position, Robinson is learning that guard has its own challenges.

“It’s just everything happens faster inside,” Robinson said. “Outside you have a little more time to kick. The guys are faster but these guys are just quick and trained to rush the passer. It’s just about keeping my feet working and knowing when to pull. Right now it’s a lot of thinking going on, it causes me to move a little slower. Once I get up to speed, I can move with the snap count and stuff like that.”

Robinson’s struggles aren’t a complete surprise to league insiders who had their doubts about Robinson’s ability to be dominant at the next level. Robinson’s reference to the intensity of the playbook won’t surprise skeptics, either, given that Robinson dealt with a limited range of plays and protections at Auburn. It makes the Rams’ risk even bigger, especially since they’ve moved Robinson to a position that typically doesn’t demand a top-five draft pedigree.

There’s still a long way to go until Robinson faces NFL-caliber talent in a game that counts. Until then, the best preparation may come from facing the team’s other first-round pick — defensive tackle Aaron Donald.

Somehow Robinson admitting that it's a tough transition mentally from college to the NFL is an affirmation of Robinson's lack of physical talent?

Mike Florio strikes again. Douchebag.

 

[wrstdude]

"It's frustrating that I'm not up to pace right now because the playbook is more intense and things are changing but once I get back to where I'm comfortable, things will calm down and I can be myself out there," Robinson said.

Also said by the entire 2011 Rams offense.

For me, this is the most frustrating part of the Schotty offense. Say what you want about scheme, route combos etc, but he really needs to implement an approach to help the rookies more. I read every other team/coordinator having some sort of process to ease in the rookies. Here they start in Trig as opposed to starting in Algebra I. Every year, as you just noted, we read, and see, the struggles to acclimate. Why? The throwing the whole playbook at the wall and seeing what sticks approach isn't working. I don't have a problem w/ the Schotty offense to the degree of some, but this has clearly been a detriment to the entire offense.

 

[-X-]

For me, this is the most frustrating part of the Schotty offense. Say what you want about scheme, route combos etc, but he really needs to implement an approach to help the rookies more. I read every other team/coordinator having some sort of process to ease in the rookies. Here they start in Trig as opposed to starting in Algebra I. Every year, as you just noted, we read, and see, the struggles to acclimate. Why? The throwing the whole playbook at the wall and seeing what sticks approach isn't working. I don't have a problem w/ the Schotty offense to the degree of some, but this has clearly been a detriment to the entire offense.

Are you certain that's how it's being done? But let's say for the sake of discussion that it is a matter of just throwing the whole playbook at everyone all at once (even though I haven't read anything to substantiate it). In June. Is that really a bad thing? That's kind of how you separate the wheat from the chaff. It's also exactly how Greg Williams is doing it on defense. He's throwing everything at them, including some things that aren't even IN the playbook, in order to test their ability to perform under pressure. From what I've read, people seem to be in favor of that. But not if Schottenheimer does it?

 

[LACHAMP46]

For me, this is the most frustrating part of the Schotty offense. Say what you want about scheme, route combos etc, but he really needs to implement an approach to help the rookies more. I read every other team/coordinator having some sort of process to ease in the rookies. Here they start in Trig as opposed to starting in Algebra I. Every year, as you just noted, we read, and see, the struggles to acclimate. Why? The throwing the whole playbook at the wall and seeing what sticks approach isn't working. I don't have a problem w/ the Schotty offense to the degree of some, but this has clearly been a detriment to the entire offense.

Are you certain that's how it's being done? But let's say for the sake of discussion that it is a matter of just throwing the whole playbook at everyone all at once (even though I haven't read anything to substantiate it). In June. Is that really a bad thing? That's kind of how you separate the wheat from the chaff. It's also exactly how Greg Williams is doing it on defense. He's throwing everything at them, including some things that aren't even IN the playbook, in order to test their ability to perform under pressure. From what I've read, people seem to be in favor of that. But not if Schottenheimer does it?

I have read somewhere, Schotty's offense IS difficult to get down. Lots of terminology, sets/formations, and it takes a while for vets to remember....But gotta agree with X, give 'em everything, see what works early and go from there.

 

[wrstdude]

Are you certain that's how it's being done? But let's say for the sake of discussion that it is a matter of just throwing the whole playbook at everyone all at once (even though I haven't read anything to substantiate it). In June. Is that really a bad thing? That's kind of how you separate the wheat from the chaff. It's also exactly how Greg Williams is doing it on defense. He's throwing everything at them, including some things that aren't even IN the playbook, in order to test their ability to perform under pressure. From what I've read, people seem to be in favor of that. But not if Schottenheimer does it?

Well I can't be certain as I'm not in the meeting rooms, but I think the lack luster results certainly speak for themselves. If he's NOT throwing the whole playbook at them and this is his idea of easing them in, that's even worse, no? Bradford is as cerebral as they come when it comes to offense and his quotes are all there explaining his struggles and being more comfortable with the offense. You noted 2011 being the case as well. It's been well documented the size of the Schotty playbook is daunting, to say the least, w/ verbiage that is difficult to retain. Have you ever read of a rookie under Schotty picking up the playbook w/ ease or even nominal effort? Why do other teams do more to help their players? See the Colts hiring Pep.

I did read how Williams is throwing everything at the Defense, but that doesn't mean they are equal right? Maybe the language is easier to understand/retain. Maybe some of the D-schemes are more similar to college schemes than the O-schemes. Maybe Williams is just a better teacher. There's a litany of variables that could explain why Williams' approach is working better.

What I think we do know, however, is that Schotty isn't sharing the same success w/ his approach, whatever it may be.

 

[-X-]

I have read somewhere, Schotty's offense IS difficult to get down. Lots of terminology, sets/formations, and it takes a while for vets to remember....But gotta agree with X, give 'em everything, see what works early and go from there.

Oh I know it's complex. That much I've read. I just haven't read anywhere that he's trying to implement the whole thing, all at once, to rookies. If he is doing that, then I'd like to read about it. My gut feeling is that he's only giving some of the playbook to rookies, and that's why they're not seeing a ton of snaps right away (receivers, mostly). But if you're counted on to be a starter (like Robinson), then you don't have the luxury of spoon-feeding him the playbook. He's gotta know as much as the QB does, and he's gotta be able to execute it too.

 

[wrstdude]

I have read somewhere, Schotty's offense IS difficult to get down. Lots of terminology, sets/formations, and it takes a while for vets to remember....But gotta agree with X, give 'em everything, see what works early and go from there.

At what point does he realize that this is slowing down the success of the offense? I'd be fine with this if we were seeing a top 10 offense yearly. If players like Cordarrelle Patterson, someone who was noted as someone who would struggle mightily picking up an NFL offense, can find as much success as he did year 1, I start to question the approach of the Rams when I continue to read of struggles by offensive players at all positions.

 

[-X-]

Well I can't be certain as I'm not in the meeting rooms, but I think the lack luster results certainly speak for themselves. If he's NOT throwing the whole playbook at them and this is his idea of easing them in, that's even worse, no? Bradford is as cerebral as they come when it comes to offense and his quotes are all there explaining his struggles and being more comfortable with the offense. You noted 2011 being the case as well. It's been well documented the size of the Schotty playbook is daunting, to say the least, w/ verbiage that is difficult to retain. Have you ever read of a rookie under Schotty picking up the playbook w/ ease or even nominal effort? Why do other teams do more to help their players? See the Colts hiring Pep.

I did read how Williams is throwing everything at the Defense, but that doesn't mean they are equal right? Maybe the language is easier to understand/retain. Maybe some of the D-schemes are more similar to college schemes than the O-schemes. Maybe Williams is just a better teacher. There's a litany of variables that could explain why Williams' approach is working better.

What I think we do know, however, is that Schotty isn't sharing the same success w/ his approach, whatever it may be.

This is a good discussion. I kind of outlined my thoughts on it above, but I can expand on it a little bit. When I mentioned 2011, it wasn't because of Schottenheimer, obviously. That was McDaniels, and the reason they didn't pick it up is because (a) it was also complex and (b), they weren't afforded the opportunity to practice it to any level of efficiency due to the lockout. But that aside, even if it's the most difficult playbook in the history of the league (and it's not -- see: Martz), how would you like him to implement it? You first said you want him to implement an approach to help the rookies more, and then said if he eases them into it, it's even worse. Where's the middle ground? My guess is that receivers play when they show the ability to master a subset of the playbook (10 or 15 plays), and then their snaps increase as they absorb more. Some of the receivers are a little slower on the uptake than others, but Givens had no difficulties playing right away. And that's because his plays were limited to deep patterns with more intermediate stuff being thrown in as 2012 wore on. That's something a lot of us picked up on late in the '12 season.

But like I said, guys like Robinson (who have to know the whole thing) are going to stumble a bit more in the beginning. Guys like Sanchez had no issues with it going into AFC Championship games, so he's either really smart or there was a watered down version of the playbook being implemented. Which one would you guess was the case? And, I didn't say Williams' approach is working better. Nobody knows that yet. Maybe he is a better teacher though. I don't know that either. What I do know is that we can't employ a double standard if both coordinators are *allegedly* doing the same thing, yet one of them is doing it wrong. It's either the right way or it's not. So if your suppositions are the basis of your argument, then can I use some too? Like, maybe Schottenheimer isn't being permitted to get all creative anymore because it wasn't being executed properly the first time they tried it (early 2013). Or maybe we're not drafting intelligent enough receivers. Or maybe the execution isn't good enough and that's what's holding him back. Who knows. All I know is, if Fisher pulled the trigger this year and got rid of Schottenheimer in favor of someone more *creative*, then you might as well sit Bradford down, because that's going to be (by default) the reason he didn't succeed this year.

 

[rhinobean]

I don't know what the word "stuggles" means but Florio seems to be on quite a roll today. I don't remember any "league insiders" having had their "doubts about Robinson’s ability to be dominant at the next level." Mostly what I remember is that most if not all draftniks had him as a top 3 pick.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Robinson stuggles with NFL transition
Posted by Mike Florio on June 22, 2014

AP

When the Rams made Greg Robinson the second overall pick in the draft, it was assumed he’d play left tackle. Only days later, G.M. Les Snead explained that Robinson may play guard.

Since then, it’s become more clear that Robinson will indeed play guard as a rookie. It’s also becoming clear that he’s having a hard time with the transition.

“It’s frustrating that I’m not up to pace right now because the playbook is more intense and things are changing but once I get back to where I’m comfortable, things will calm down and I can be myself out there,” Robinson said recently, via Nick Wagoner of ESPN.com. “I didn’t know what to expect, honestly. I put a lot of pressure on myself because I like to challenge myself. It’s something I want to do and just stand out to the coaches and let them be comfortable with their choice.”

While tackle is regarded as the more difficult position, Robinson is learning that guard has its own challenges.

“It’s just everything happens faster inside,” Robinson said. “Outside you have a little more time to kick. The guys are faster but these guys are just quick and trained to rush the passer. It’s just about keeping my feet working and knowing when to pull. Right now it’s a lot of thinking going on, it causes me to move a little slower. Once I get up to speed, I can move with the snap count and stuff like that.”

Robinson’s struggles aren’t a complete surprise to league insiders who had their doubts about Robinson’s ability to be dominant at the next level. Robinson’s reference to the intensity of the playbook won’t surprise skeptics, either, given that Robinson dealt with a limited range of plays and protections at Auburn. It makes the Rams’ risk even bigger, especially since they’ve moved Robinson to a position that typically doesn’t demand a top-five draft pedigree.

There’s still a long way to go until Robinson faces NFL-caliber talent in a game that counts. Until then, the best preparation may come from facing the team’s other first-round pick — defensive tackle Aaron Donald.

Or Brockers for that matter! They'll help teach him the NFL game!

 

[wrstdude]

This is a good discussion. I kind of outlined my thoughts on it above, but I can expand on it a little bit. When I mentioned 2011, it wasn't because of Schottenheimer, obviously. That was McDaniels, and the reason they didn't pick it up is because (a) it was also complex and (b), they weren't afforded the opportunity to practice it to any level of efficiency due to the lockout.

I realized that after I posted; my mistake.

But that aside, even if it's the most difficult playbook in the history of the league (and it's not -- see: Martz), how would you like him to implement it? You first said you want him to implement an approach to help the rookies more, and then said if he eases them into it, it's even worse. Where's the middle ground?

You misunderstood me a bit there as I'm sure I wasn't clear. I assumed he was throwing the whole playbook at them because they are struggling so much. If he is not throwing the whole playbook at them and he is, in fact, easing them in that is an even greater indictment to how he implements the offense. That's what I meant by "it's even worse." Just to be clear I prefer a basic implementation of such a complex offense. I have no problem admitting I'm speculating, but as I mentioned, I would expect some evidence of success at some point in his approach whatever it may be.

My guess is that receivers play when they show the ability to master a subset of the playbook (10 or 15 plays), and then their snaps increase as they absorb more. Some of the receivers are a little slower on the uptake than others, but Givens had no difficulties playing right away. And that's because his plays were limited to deep patterns with more intermediate stuff being thrown in as 2012 wore on. That's something a lot of us picked up on late in the '12 season.

Agreed. Givens ability to play right away may have been out of necessity too as Quick clearly wasn't up to the task.

But like I said, guys like Robinson (who have to know the whole thing) are going to stumble a bit more in the beginning. Guys like Sanchez had no issues with it going into AFC Championship games, so he's either really smart or there was a watered down version of the playbook being implemented. Which one would you guess was the case?

Tough to say for sure. They didn't rely on Sanchez much as I recall, with such a strong run game. A team with a greater veteran presence maybe allowed everyone else to shoulder more of the weight for the young Sanchez. I certainly could be misremembering.

And, I didn't say Williams' approach is working better. Nobody knows that yet. Maybe he is a better teacher though. I don't know that either. What I do know is that we can't employ a double standard if both coordinators are *allegedly* doing the same thing, yet one of them is doing it wrong. It's either the right way or it's not.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I don't think it's binary in that sense. I believe something is right if it works and wrong if it doesn't. The ability to change and adapt to personnel is one of the abilities of the best coaches; something that Williams is noted for doing. If Williams can throw the whole book at the D and it works, it's certainly not wrong. But if that's what Schotty is doing and it's not working, then it's wrong.

So if your suppositions are the basis of your argument, then can I use some too? Like, maybe Schottenheimer isn't being permitted to get all creative anymore because it wasn't being executed properly the first time they tried it (early 2013). Or maybe we're not drafting intelligent enough receivers. Or maybe the execution isn't good enough and that's what's holding him back. Who knows. All I know is, if Fisher pulled the trigger this year and got rid of Schottenheimer in favor of someone more *creative*, then you might as well sit Bradford down, because that's going to be (by default) the reason he didn't succeed this year.

Again, as I mentioned initially, Schotty's lack of creativity isn't my problem. I can't disagree with any of those points as none of them were a part of my initial argument &, in my opinion, are a separate issue entirely. I mentioned in my initial response that "I don't have a problem w/ the Schotty offense to the degree of some." I was actually trying to avoid that as part of my complaint as I know many others do feel that is a big issue. With a playbook as large as he has, I'm certain he has a plethora of creative plays. My assertion lays only with how it's being taught/the slow process rookies, continue to have mastering it.

If the players aren't intelligent enough and execution is struggling to the extent that they are, my contention is that he should change his approach whatever it may be. Which, ultimately, should allow him to use some of his creativity.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Lots of interesting points X/wrstdude....Sanchez was always a bright guy out here...Pro-style offense in high school...I'm glad we stayed with Schotty as well....Lets play it out....Glad you made the distinction on WR vs OG.....Linemen do have to learn more, but really is it as difficult as remembering patterns & formations? Hard to say....I can't wait to see Tavon in his second year....Bailey in his second year...and compare it to Quick & Givens 3rd year..Maybe the offense was simplified a lil bit due to past difficulties....

I was a Cord Patterson fan too, it was interesting to see the Vikings utilize him...Lets see what my Rams do in 2014, specifically Schotty & the offense

 

[-X-]

With a playbook as large as he has, I'm certain he has a plethora of creative plays. My assertion lays only with how it's being taught/the slow process rookies, continue to have mastering it.

If the players aren't intelligent enough and execution is struggling to the extent that they are, my contention is that he should change his approach whatever it may be. Which, ultimately, should allow him to use some of his creativity.

Gotcha. This is difficult to hash out because (a) we don't know if he's doing anything wrong and (b) if he does change anything, would it be the right move? I saw a lot of execution problems last year (and the year before), but to be fair, that's because there are a lot of young players trying to execute on many levels for the same play. Could he dumb things down? I don't know, because I don't know if his stuff is actually that difficult to understand. It's like Fisher said ... "We don't draw up plays that don't work." Maybe, like you alleged, he's just not a good teacher. Of all the suppositions in this discussion, that one seems the most likely.

Regarding Patterson though, he didn't do any better than Givens did in 2012 (or as well). And we know who was calling the plays for us then.