Cal fan's take on Goff

[kurtfaulk]

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Wentz is not JaMarcus Russell or the qb version of greg Robinson. He's smart and can think on his feet. Also puts in the work so he can master the offense.

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[Mackeyser]

Having an opinion is great. You might want to take it easy, tho.

What you stated is opinion, not analysis and it's certainly not the last word.

Best to remember that this is meant to be an ongoing conversation. illowfight::grouphug:

 

[jhbchristopher]

Welcome. A lot in that post I'd like to go with the bolded part: I think it’s a lot easier to teach a QB to take snaps from under center then to teach (if it’s possible to teach) the other intangibles Goff already possesses.

Well, yeah, but only because many intangibles that the top QBs possess can't be taught AT ALL. That doesn't mean that teaching a QB to take snaps from under center is easy. Gruden had concerns that Goff wasn't accounting for all the rushers and taking hits behind that leaky OL at Cal. Well, in a Play Action based offense that the Rams run, the QBs back gets turned on the LOS and rushers so that awareness is key or he's going to get creamed. Teaching a QB to take snaps under center is actually quite difficult because it changes the entire rhythm of the passer and it puts a LOT more fatigue into the legs. Want to feel it for yourself? Do 10 squats, then do a QB drop back. Do 10 more, then do it again. If you're out of shape, it'd e pretty easy to stumble because a whole set of muscles need to be built up. Point is that by the 3rd quarter, there's a difference that will affect footwork, weight distribution, release point and timing. The entire issue of mechanics have to be kept in mind. It's not just practicing a few crossover steps and strengthening the hip flexor muscles, it's maintaining good mechanics across a moving platform and changing how he sets up.

Also, I keep reading about Goff "dropping dimes".

I don't see that. I see him consistently underthrowing his deep throws while Wentz hits his receivers deep in stride. At Cal, I think he got away with that way more than he will at the pro level.

In Goff's favor, I think he was more accurate in the intermediate level overall. I like Wentz more on those big throws to the sideline, the "1st down" throws if you will, but overall, yeah, I see Goff as more accurate in the intermediate range.

So, as far as "dropping dimes" I just don't see it and certainly not on the long balls.

Great call out on the play action, I never said it was easy, said it was easier then learning the other things I mentioned though. Goff has been working a ton since the end of the season on working under center. I do agree though it's a tough transition, it a guess on my part but I just don't see trading away that many picks for Wentz, he's big has a strong arm and can run, from and accuracy and progression standpoint I just don't see it.

Your absolutely correct on the deep throws, one thing you will notice though is on the under throws thats usually his last progression and the receiver is way downfield and usually wide wide open. They run a trips to the right all verticle with an RPO, Goff first executes the play action progresses through the trips side, if that's not open he comes back to Davis because the deep saftey has usually floated over to the trips side hence him being so wide open. I think part of the reason for the underthrow is the receiver is so wide open, and there is a fear of an overthrow. One other thing that scared me the first two years were his deep middle throws, he threw a few picks because he wasn't accounting for the saftey. He seemed to clean that up last year.

One thing he does excel at it placement on the go routes in man coverage, it's usually over the outside shoulder or out of bounds so no picks. He also throws great fade routes, Lawler his receiver on the right made quite a few spectacular catches based Goffs ball placement.

Don't get me wrong though, in think one of the issues he ran into this year was he was getting so good at reading defenses that he would show tendencies based on certain defenses. 3 of his picks were in disguised cover 2s where the corner would come up to the flat then drop back to the over the top route. He cleaned that up though the line also got better towards the end of the year giving him a little more decision time.

I can go on all night about the good and bad things, honestly though what it comes down to for me is the intangibles he has, I watch alot of CFB and I just don't see other qb's with the pocket awareness, the mechanics and the ball placement he has. I just don't see trading so much for Wentz, nothing against the guy at all but besides him playing in a play action offense and being big and strong I don't know, I watched alot of Hogan and i would have stayed where I was and took him.

Who knows right, I'm a CAL fan so I lean towards Goff. I'll watch some more Wentz film though.

Update (watching Wentz in the national championship game against Montana) I like him but their offense looks very similar to Cal's, mostly shotgun and lots of RPO. Their routes seem to be alot deeper though maybe due to play action)

 

[rdlkgliders]

I think that's entirely backwards. What learning curve?

Wentz with his in depth knowledge of how a pro system works as well as managing pro audibles and even line changes due to audibles will be ready to start right away.

Goff, otoh, took most of his snaps from the gun from the Bear Raid offense they run at Cal which is a spread offense. He's going to have to acclimate to managing the huddle and pre-snap reads within the confines of a pro system scheme. I point to the vectors of Winston and Mariotta. Many liked Mariotta's upside over Winston and liked his accuracy better, etc. And yet... Winston was from a pro system, better prepared and it really showed. Granted, Winston had some habits to break, but toward the end of the season, he really started to come on. Mariotta has a ways to go.

I'll repeat what I said. If Snisher goes with Goff, I fully expect him to sit most of the year if not the full year. If Snisher goes with Wentz, I fully expect him to vie for the job day one.

I'll be happy with either. I just know that taking Goff is a pick for the future. I don't expect Goff to affect much this year. I think Wentz would play this year and play well.

People have used the GRob/Matthews analogy.

I prefer Winston/Mariotta analogy. Wentz is Winston and Goff is Mariotta in this analogy but with totally different personalities of course or I'd be totally against Wentz.

I think Goff has the potential to be a Drew Brees type QB. I really do. But it won't be year one. Those thinking Goff is ahead of Wentz on the "who can start Day One" meter, well, I couldn't disagree more. The facts just don't match.

Great job Mac.
I agree although Goff may not sit the whole year but yeah. Love the Brees comparison. Wentz is Matthews/Brady to me.
One other thing about Wentz is he is very intelligent by the account of all around him. His ability to absorb info was raved about. Of course Goff has to be pretty smart himself. Cal is no joke.
P.S
If it were about plug and play Cook would be the pick he is probaly the most ready buy is a much greater risk.

 

[Mackeyser]

Well, I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm.

You may not understand the enthusiasm for Wentz and that's fine. Rest assured, it's not just hype. Wentz throws the best deep ball and it just keeps getting better. You watch him during his Senior season and it was darn good. At the Senior bowl, it was better. At the Combine, even better. At his pro day, even better still. His similarities to Ben Roethlisberger are striking.

I haven't had the time to put together a bit of a scouting report on both guys, but if I get the chance, I'll do that.

Both players have their pros and cons.

My take has been pretty simple: Wentz is ready to start day one and fits the existing system that the Rams run. Goff will need time to acclimate from the Bear Raid spread offense and transition to a pro offense. As well, he's not a fit for the system the Rams run (neither is Case Keenum, as we see. He can struggle to do certain things and he can make throws here and there, but THIS offense doesn't suit what Case does best).

This isn't just about Wentz or Goff, either. Matt Ryan is a fine QB, but he would struggle mightily in Seattle's offense which relies on Russell Wilson's ability to make plays. Not every QB can fit in every situation.

What's funny is that I think that Goff would do very well in either Cleveland or Philly based on what he went through at Cal helping to revive that program, showing toughness and the systems are a better fit. As well, he should be able to sit for a year in both if need be and really get the acclimation he needs.

I won't be super upset if we take Goff. I'll just feel on draft day that we didn't take the best fit. Then the sun will come up and I'll root for the newest Ram.

It'll be Sam Bradford all over again... wait... I probably shouldn't put it like that... I just mean emotionally...

 

[Dodgersrf]

I think it’s a lot easier to teach a QB to take snaps from under center then to teach (if it’s possible to teach) the other intangibles Goff already possesses.

I see this as well.
The speed in which Goff processes the field, is incredible. Doesn't lock into receivers. Not afraid to throw with tight coverage. He is tough and stands tall with pressure in his face (which was often). Gets the ball out quick. Has the footwork of a D. Brees.

There's much to like from what I've seen.

 

[25Q86R]

I apologize if I come off a little strong. It's one of my many character flaws.

 

[jhbchristopher]

Well, I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm.

You may not understand the enthusiasm for Wentz and that's fine. Rest assured, it's not just hype. Wentz throws the best deep ball and it just keeps getting better. You watch him during his Senior season and it was darn good. At the Senior bowl, it was better. At the Combine, even better. At his pro day, even better still. His similarities to Ben Roethlisberger are striking.

I haven't had the time to put together a bit of a scouting report on both guys, but if I get the chance, I'll do that.

Both players have their pros and cons.

My take has been pretty simple: Wentz is ready to start day one and fits the existing system that the Rams run. Goff will need time to acclimate from the Bear Raid spread offense and transition to a pro offense. As well, he's not a fit for the system the Rams run (neither is Case Keenum, as we see. He can struggle to do certain things and he can make throws here and there, but THIS offense doesn't suit what Case does best).

This isn't just about Wentz or Goff, either. Matt Ryan is a fine QB, but he would struggle mightily in Seattle's offense which relies on Russell Wilson's ability to make plays. Not every QB can fit in every situation.

What's funny is that I think that Goff would do very well in either Cleveland or Philly based on what he went through at Cal helping to revive that program, showing toughness and the systems are a better fit. As well, he should be able to sit for a year in both if need be and really get the acclimation he needs.

I won't be super upset if we take Goff. I'll just feel on draft day that we didn't take the best fit. Then the sun will come up and I'll root for the newest Ram.

It'll be Sam Bradford all over again... wait... I probably shouldn't put it like that... I just mean emotionally...

Looking forward to your scouting report, I watched some Wentz film tonight, one thing I noticed was how similar his offense looks to CALs, the game I watched Wentz mostly went from the shotgun and there was an RPO component (exactly like CALs) or read option. Im starting to wonder if maybe when they are saying that's Wentz is a pro style QB is it maybe more the terminology around play calling? It could be maybe the game I watched they benefited more from being in the gun. I'll watch some more tomorrow night. Looking forward to your report.

 

[RamzFanz]

Fisher had very favorable comments about Goff in a February 3 interview with Tim Kawakami

It doesn't work that way with Fisher. He's always positive about players even the day before he cuts them. Nothing he says is ever to be believed.

 

[RamzFanz]

I keep hearing people say that if you evaluate them as passers Goff is head and shoulders better, "but Wentz has prototypical size and way more potential" or some such. You know what I want my QB to do? Pass like a freaking champion.

Now evaluate them as rushers. There's zero competition.

Now evaluate them through Jeff Fisher's eyes who took a gimped RB last season based on potential and a prayer and made TA a true and consistent rushing weapon. Gurley had a very respectable 4.8 YPC. TA had 8.3.

If I were to evaluate what Fisher wants, and I often do poorly, I would go with ball control, eat the clock, misdirection running, and a monster defense. Who needs a passer better than Wentz, who is pretty damn good, when the other team can't score 20 because we take the ball away and play keepaway?

Who fits? Is he going back to the complete failure of a spread offense he tried several seasons ago?

 

[Mackeyser]

I apologize if I come off a little strong. It's one of my many character flaws.

It's all good. We're just here to have fun!

 

[Mackeyser]

Looking forward to your scouting report, I watched some Wentz film tonight, one thing I noticed was how similar his offense looks to CALs, the game I watched Wentz mostly went from the shotgun and there was an RPO component (exactly like CALs) or read option. Im starting to wonder if maybe when they are saying that's Wentz is a pro style QB is it maybe more the terminology around play calling? It could be maybe the game I watched they benefited more from being in the gun. I'll watch some more tomorrow night. Looking forward to your report.

I dunno which game you watched so I can't answer you. It would really help if you could link the vid, maybe? If we're both looking at the same thing, then it's easier to know we're speaking about the same things.

 

[FarNorth]

It doesn't work that way with Fisher. He's always positive about players even the day before he cuts them. Nothing he says is ever to be believed.

I have a different view of Fisher's comments. I think he is very candid when circumstances allow. But we'll see, won't we, if (as I expect) the Rams take Goff, citing his accuracy, outstanding footwork, quick release, and ability to escape pressure.

 

[jhbchristopher]

I dunno which game you watched so I can't answer you. It would really help if you could link the vid, maybe? If we're both looking at the same thing, then it's easier to know we're speaking about the same things.

I watched North Dakota vs Montana, the 2015 national championship game on YouTube. I got to the CAL spring game early today and got to watch Dallas work out Goff, was really cool. His throwing before the receiver was out of the break looked amazing. I was pretty close. He threw for them for about an hour, Garret put him in a lot of different situations, took a lot of snaps from under center, seemed to be fine. Added a pic of Goff Speaking with Jerry afterward.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Ramsince62, what we're the scores? It's not like they lost 20-7. They would lose having scored a plethora of points. Still a loss, but the kid can score. Give him a defense that can hold a team to twenty points and what would his record be? And Wentz's team won without him. Injury potential. What does the history say? Goff can take a beating and Wentz, for all his size, can get hurt. By players that are far less athletic and talented than NFL players.

Forget for a second that Wentz is one single inch taller than Goff. Now who's the pick? The guy from a small school who got hurt, his team won without him, and he only started for a year and a half? Or the guy from a PAC 12 school who's accurate, reacts great to pressure, and helped his team go from abysmal to respectable?

I keep hearing people say that if you evaluate them as passers Goff is head and shoulders better, "but Wentz has prototypical size and way more potential" or some such. You know what I want my QB to do? Pass like a freaking champion.

Let me ask you this. Let's just say, hypothetically, that the rams actually end up passing the ball in the first game. I would bet they're going to pass at least 20 times. Do you want a guy who is already a great passer, or a guy who looks good standing one inch taller? You can keep JaMarcuss Russell. The good money is on the passer.

Bravo

 

[fancents86]

I'm gonna have to go with Goff on this one, although I think either one will have just as much success with this team as the other. What I like about Goff is that he had to work with a weaker oline in a harder conference. cowherd brough up a few good points when analyzing Wentz, in that it didn't matter whether he played qb or not for that team, bc they are the Alabama of their conference and so much better than their competition. We all know how bad of luck us Rams have with our oline, and if anyone goes down, it multiple players, I have more faith in Goff getting the ball out and accurately, bc that's what he is used to.

Wentz may have played a pro style offense in college, but so did Mannion. So to me that's kind of a moot argument. You can argue that Wentz has better mechanics, stronger arm, etc, but to me that brings us back to him ever having to deal with pressure.

Either way, I think it doesn't matter who we grab. If we fail it will not be bc of bad qb play, but more of learning curve or typical rams brain farts when on the field.

 

[WvuIN02]

I know Michael Silver said the mock guys all seem to favor Wentz but he talked to GMs and NFL guys who draft at the end of round 1 (ie playoff teams) who all seem to think Goff is the clear cut better QB. And he's a very well connected guy, so, it will definitely be interesting. Watching games I think Goff is just far better personally and think he will be a top 5 talent in the pros, his footwork and pocket mobility, quick release and accuracy is all top notch.

 

[rdw]

Fisher had very favorable comments about Goff in a February 3 interview with Tim Kawakami of the Mercury News. Liked his footwork and accuracy, predicted he would have a great NFL career. Brief but very positive. Sorry, I don't know how to link the story or the audio.

Skip to about 7:00 to hear the blurb.
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawaka...-conversation-with-la-rams-coach-jeff-fisher/

 

[OldSchool]

Compare at the running yards gained between them, I'll take the guy who can turn a loss into again, especially these days. Goff won 14 games in 3 years, that's hardly anything to brag about, IMO.

For the record attributing team wins to just the QB is probably one of the worst stats in football. Goff was on some truly terrible teams and his final year had the team over .500 without a lot of other talent on the roster.

 

[ViennaMax]

Skip to about 7:00 to hear the blurb.
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawaka...-conversation-with-la-rams-coach-jeff-fisher/

have you ever heard a coach not talking a player up when asked about him?