Article: Two of The Best GM Candidates for The Rams

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OldSchool

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That's the problem... we don't know how much input Snead really had.

Fisher said they made the decisions together. If that's true, then Snead holds some responsibility, no?

If Fisher made all the decisions, how do we know how good Snead may (or may not) be?
The last part I absolutely agree with. But a couple things make me think Snead was little more than a Scouting Director. The main reason I absolve Snead of a lot of the drafting and free agent issues is articles like this from when Fisher was hired.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/nfl---fi...jeff-fisher-choosing-rams-over-dolphins-.html

"At the end of the day I wanted the ability to have final say, with a general manager I could build something with," Fisher said. "And ultimately, a lot of it came down to Stan and Sam."

Now it does say a GM he can build with but that is preceded by him having final say. But more so than that was a video of the War Room we all might recall and the interviews afterwards. And yet granted it was "just a 7th round pick" But Fisher is the one who made the call to pick Michael Sam. He didn't ask anybody in fact when asked about if he asked Kroenke about making the pick he specifies that he informed him they were picking Sam not that he asked for permission to take him. This was Fishers boat and a question we may never have an answer to is just how much access to the controls did Snead have.
 

OldSchool

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I'm not interested in Pioli. His tenure in KC was bad. And he reportedly clashed with HC Todd Haley. No thank you.
While I agree in general was he the only one that clashed with Haley? And is it a bad thing to not agree with a coach who worked out like Haley did?
 

jrry32

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While I agree in general was he the only one that clashed with Haley? And is it a bad thing to not agree with a coach who worked out like Haley did?

It is when you're arguably the reason he failed. Especially when you were responsible for hiring him, and there were reports that you had friction with everyone in the organization.

Simply put, I'm a lot more willing to overlook Haley's issues in KC than Pioli's. Because there's a strong argument that Pioli was a cause of the issues.
 

jrry32

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I don't think Demoff should be picking either. I feel Kroenke needs a new COO that picks both the GM and HC. I think Demoff is part of the problem.

I think Demoff has done his job well.
 

jrry32

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Frankly, I think people put too much stock in hindsight-based analysis. There are moves that are questionable both in terms of hindsight and foresight. Trading up for Tavon Austin is a move that was questionable both in terms of hindsight and foresight. Hiring Jeff Fisher is a move that is solely questionable in terms of hindsight. He was considered the #1 coach on the market in 2011.

People saying that we should be wary of letting Demoff choose or should fire the guy, who were you in favor of hiring in 2011?

It's easy to sit here in hindsight and say Demoff failed. But the question should be if the process failed. Not if the results weren't what we wanted them to be. Personally, I don't think the process back then failed. We got our #1 target. We got the guy who was the #1 target for other teams. He simply didn't do enough while here.

He also didn't completely fall on his face. In the end, he deserved to get fired. But his tenure wasn't a total failure. We're not talking about a Spagnuolo or Linehan type disaster.
 

FRO

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Frankly, I think people put too much stock in hindsight-based analysis. There are moves that are questionable both in terms of hindsight and foresight. Trading up for Tavon Austin is a move that was questionable both in terms of hindsight and foresight. Hiring Jeff Fisher is a move that is solely questionable in terms of hindsight. He was considered the #1 coach on the market in 2011.

People saying that we should be wary of letting Demoff choose or should fire the guy, who were you in favor of hiring in 2011?

It's easy to sit here in hindsight and say Demoff failed. But the question should be if the process failed. Not if the results weren't what we wanted them to be. Personally, I don't think the process back then failed. We got our #1 target. We got the guy who was the #1 target for other teams. He simply didn't do enough while here.

He also didn't completely fall on his face. In the end, he deserved to get fired. But his tenure wasn't a total failure. We're not talking about a Spagnuolo or Linehan type disaster.
Demoff has been here for how many years running the show? Why does he get a pass?
 

jrry32

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Demoff has been here for how many years running the show? Why does he get a pass?

Because he's not running the show. He's responsible for the business side of things and the salary cap. He's done amazing work with the salary cap, and the business side of the team is running fine. He's doing his job.

Why would he get blamed for the failures of Fisher and Snead? That's not his job. He's not the GM or Head Coach. He allowed those guys the freedom to do their job. And as I said before, Fisher was considered the top coach on the market by many in 2011/2012 when we hired him.

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 

thirteen28

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Demoff has been here for how many years running the show? Why does he get a pass?

Because he's done his job of negotiating contracts and keeping the Rams out of cap hell, and he's done it exceptionally well. Go look at other teams - like the Saints, whose head coach might up here - who don't manage the cap well. They end up with W-L records similar to ours, even though they have good coaching and franchise QBing, namely because their cap situation gets in the way of them acquiring talent. The Rams pr

And as @jrry said above, he did what the owner wanted him to do following the 2011 season, landing the #1 coaching target, the guy who was sought after by not only the Rams but by the Dolphins and Chargers as well.

I get your anger at all the losing, it's understandable. But indiscriminately blowing up the entire organization irrespective of where the real problems lie because you are p!ssed at losing is a good way to ensure the team will continue losing.
 

thirteen28

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I think the Athletes emphasis was definitely on both sides of the ball. Tru was raw, JJ was raw, Ogletree was a bit raw, they all had great athleticism. Then guys like Mo and TJ were great athletes as well. Fisher and Snead stressed athleticism on both sides of the ball. It is no coincidence that the Rams have great special teams too. They have athletes all through the roster including ST. Hekker is a good athlete.

There is some merit to it because it works, especially on D and special teams. However, offense is about scheme and precision execution. It isn't about just being quick and strong and reacting. Players need football smarts to play offense. Think of the Patriots offense and what types they like. Mostly they are football smart guys like Amendola, not necessarily combine toppers.

I don't think I'd characterize JJ or Ogletree as raw ... both of those guys started as rookies. JJ was NFL-ready and played like it right out of the gate. 'Tree had some growing pains, but it wasn't as if he was some Quick-like project either. He had the typical rookie ups and downs. TJ Mac looked like a rookie 3rd rounder, but wasn't a disaster either, he had some level of NFL readiness (and don't forget, missed a big chunk of his rookie year with a broken leg). Yes, they were good athletes, but they also showed some level of readiness to play in the NFL coming out; they were not projects. And on the flip side, they took EJ who fell because of the lack of eye-popping athleticism ... but they thought he was NFL ready (and his rookie season bore that out). So in general, I don't think you can say the defensive picks were raw. They needed some development to be sure, but they also had some degree of NFL readiness.

Quick on the other hand had never had a playbook, while GRob played in an offense that asked him to nothing close to what he was going to do in the professional ranks (and was very young to boot). Those guys were raw and were a long way from being NFL ready when they came out.

As I said in another thread, I would be more willing to take a risk on guys like Quick and GRob if it was already a good team, but during the building phase, would emphasize NFL-readiness over athleticism (e.g., Alshon Jeffrey over Quick, Jake Matthews of GRob). However, on that latter point, given the abysmal offensive coaching we've had with the Rams over the last 5 years, it wouldn't surprise me if my preferred picks on offense would have struggled.
 

OnceARam

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If the talent was truly they would win more. He had opportunities to make selections and not posting all were bad, however, IMO Rams need a clean slate, Snead also was involved in pro player personnel as well and that area (free agency) the Rams have failed miserably.

Some of the best GMs fail in free agency. Look at Green Bay. I think a better way to judge is UDFA, which we've been stellar at. Also there seems to have been no clear direction on offense other than expecting Bradford to be our long term solution. I just don't think our drafts were the issue other than not having an OL plan and of course the TA selection. And that really comes down to Fisher having an over inflates sense that he knew what he was doing.
 

ArkyRamsFan

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I concur plus Pioli has a vowel at the end of his last name and I have always stressed there are two types of people in this world, those who are Italians and those who wish they were Italian. My colleague at work once asked me, what I would be, if I was not Italian and I replied: 'I'd be ashamed."
Ummm...I also have a vowel at the end of my last name but I am Polish not Italian.

I'm telling you......
 

jrry32

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I don't think I'd characterize JJ or Ogletree as raw ... both of those guys started as rookies. JJ was NFL-ready and played like it right out of the gate. 'Tree had some growing pains, but it wasn't as if he was some Quick-like project either. He had the typical rookie ups and downs. TJ Mac looked like a rookie 3rd rounder, but wasn't a disaster either, he had some level of NFL readiness (and don't forget, missed a big chunk of his rookie year with a broken leg). Yes, they were good athletes, but they also showed some level of readiness to play in the NFL coming out; they were not projects. And on the flip side, they took EJ who fell because of the lack of eye-popping athleticism ... but they thought he was NFL ready (and his rookie season bore that out). So in general, I don't think you can say the defensive picks were raw. They needed some development to be sure, but they also had some degree of NFL readiness.

Quick on the other hand had never had a playbook, while GRob played in an offense that asked him to nothing close to what he was going to do in the professional ranks (and was very young to boot). Those guys were raw and were a long way from being NFL ready when they came out.

As I said in another thread, I would be more willing to take a risk on guys like Quick and GRob if it was already a good team, but during the building phase, would emphasize NFL-readiness over athleticism (e.g., Alshon Jeffrey over Quick, Jake Matthews of GRob). However, on that latter point, given the abysmal offensive coaching we've had with the Rams over the last 5 years, it wouldn't surprise me if my preferred picks on offense would have struggled.

Ogletree was a converted safety who was a very raw ILB. Brockers was a RS Sophomore with one year of starting experience and was considered sushi raw. McDonald was an athlete who had underachieved his final year in college. Maurice Alexander was a guy who came out of nowhere. Trumaine Johnson was a fairly raw CB coming from a FCS school.

We took chances on raw players on defense. We just had the coaching to develop them. There wasn't much difference between Michael Brockers and Greg Robinson in terms of rawness coming out. Simply put, our defensive staff developed Brockers. Our offensive staff failed to develop Robinson.
 

OldSchool

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It is when you're arguably the reason he failed. Especially when you were responsible for hiring him, and there were reports that you had friction with everyone in the organization.

Simply put, I'm a lot more willing to overlook Haley's issues in KC than Pioli's. Because there's a strong argument that Pioli was a cause of the issues.
My only reason for the comment was because everybody seemed to clash with Haley while he was in KC. Not exonerating Pioli at all more than I'm criticizing Haley.
 

jrry32

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My only reason for the comment was because everybody seemed to clash with Haley while he was in KC. Not exonerating Pioli at all more than I'm criticizing Haley.

Haley had issues in KC. It's something you have to be mindful of during the interview and background process. However, as that article shows, that entire organization seemed quite nutty under Pioli.
 

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Because he's done his job of negotiating contracts and keeping the Rams out of cap hell, and he's done it exceptionally well. Go look at other teams - like the Saints, whose head coach might up here - who don't manage the cap well. They end up with W-L records similar to ours, even though they have good coaching and franchise QBing, namely because their cap situation gets in the way of them acquiring talent. The Rams pr

And as @jrry said above, he did what the owner wanted him to do following the 2011 season, landing the #1 coaching target, the guy who was sought after by not only the Rams but by the Dolphins and Chargers as well.

I get your anger at all the losing, it's understandable. But indiscriminately blowing up the entire organization irrespective of where the real problems lie because you are p!ssed at losing is a good way to ensure the team will continue losing.
His negotiating contracts allowed one of the best CBs in the league to leave after the team developed him. It also allowed a solid FS and the leader of the secondary to walk away. He is also the guy that gave Fisher the green light for the 5th year. Kroenke isn't a hands on owner. He'll throw his weight around here or there. Demoff runs the team. It hasn't been run well.
 

den-the-coach

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And that really comes down to Fisher having an over inflates sense that he knew what he was doing.

You can't blame Fisher for the bad stuff and credit Snead with the Good. Fisher had a major impact on the UDFA, in fact, Benny Cunningham was all Fisher, he watched at Middle Tennessee and really liked him. Now yes Snead did some good things, but the proof is in winning football games and this regime did not get it done, so it's time to move on from Head Coach & General Manager IMHO.
 

den-the-coach

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Accardo is my family line. Took the ship Taormina the same year the Titanic sank.

Well, since your family chose the right ship, maybe it is you who should hire the new Head Coach & GM.
 

thirteen28

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His negotiating contracts allowed one of the best CBs in the league to leave after the team developed him. It also allowed a solid FS and the leader of the secondary to walk away. He is also the guy that gave Fisher the green light for the 5th year. Kroenke isn't a hands on owner. He'll throw his weight around here or there. Demoff runs the team. It hasn't been run well.

Ok, you tell me how you would have retained Tru, JJ, and McLeod without blowing up the cap and putting us in eventual cap hell. And don't forget that many fans around here were more than ready to let JJ take a walk. Fact is, he offered JJ a contract commensurate with his worth, New York outbid us. But we still had TruJo and EJ coming back. Had EJ not taken as long to recover from injury, you probably wouldn't even mention this. And as far as who got the franchise tag between TruJo and JJ, make no mistake that Fisher had input, if not the final call.

With respect to McLeod, while he was a good safety, we had Alexander waiting in the wings, and Mo hasn't disappointed. He was a younger, cheaper alternative who grew into the role quite nicely. While I appreciate McLeod's contributions while he was a Ram, thanks to the play of Alexander, Rodney hasn't been missed that much.

As far as giving Fisher the green light, that buck stops with Stan, not with Demoff. Demoff isn't going to hire or fire any HC without Stan giving the thumbs up or thumbs down.

You can't blame Fisher for the bad stuff and credit Snead with the Good. Fisher had a major impact on the UDFA, in fact, Benny Cunningham was all Fisher, he watched at Middle Tennessee and really liked him. Now yes Snead did some good things, but the proof is in winning football games and this regime did not get it done, so it's time to move on from Head Coach & General Manager IMHO.

It's not a case of blaming one guy for all the good and blaming the other for all the bad. Our scouting department was an absolute mess before Snead got here, and it's much, much better now. Snead found plenty of good raw material for Fisher to work with, but Fisher had the final say as to who got picked and who coached those players. Snead had absolutely nothing to do with the hiring of three progressively worse OCs, where the first one was already mediocre. The calls on the coordinators and the position coaches (responsible for coaching up the players picked) was all on Fisher, and while Fisher did a fine job with that on the defensive side of the ball, he did abysmally bad on the offensive side of the ball - i.e. the part of the team where players have not been developed or have regressed.

Fisher bears the brunt of the responsibility, because he had final say in who was drafted, who coached the players who were drafted, who stayed on the final roster and who was cut, who dressed on game days, when the challenge flag was pulled, when it wasn't, when to go for it on 4th down and when not to, when to try a fake punt, in how practices and training camps were run, and so on. He wanted final say and full roster control and he got it. Snead's job was to find the kind of players Fisher wanted, Fisher's job was to make sure they were coached up.

Snead will be a good GM in this league. It's just a matter of who he will be good for at this point. I'm ok with him not being retained if its necessary to get the coach that the Rams need (e.g., if Harbaugh were available and Snead had to go as a condition of his hiring, I would understand). But if that condition is not present, I think he should be kept around. Scouting and finding players that the coach wanted hasn't been the big problem around here. Coaching those players once inside the building most definitely has (on offense, particularly).