Article: Two of The Best GM Candidates for The Rams

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thirteen28

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Ogletree was a converted safety who was a very raw ILB. Brockers was a RS Sophomore with one year of starting experience and was considered sushi raw. McDonald was an athlete who had underachieved his final year in college. Maurice Alexander was a guy who came out of nowhere. Trumaine Johnson was a fairly raw CB coming from a FCS school.

We took chances on raw players on defense. We just had the coaching to develop them. There wasn't much difference between Michael Brockers and Greg Robinson in terms of rawness coming out. Simply put, our defensive staff developed Brockers. Our offensive staff failed to develop Robinson.

Well, maybe my perception is different on guys like Tree and Brockers, but perhaps that's affected by the fact that they were coached up and were effective early. With regard to Jenkins, he was an athlete but he appeared to be pretty NFL ready. Ditto Aaron Donald.

But yeah, no doubt, our defensive staff developed Brockers into an effective DT in a very short time, while the offensive staff has clearly not done the same with GRob or any other OL drafted in the last few years.
 

den-the-coach

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Snead will be a good GM in this league. It's just a matter of who he will be good for at this point. I'm ok with him not being retained if its necessary to get the coach that the Rams need (e.g., if Harbaugh were available and Snead had to go as a condition of his hiring, I would understand). But if that condition is not present, I think he should be kept around. Scouting and finding players that the coach wanted hasn't been the big problem around here. Coaching those players once inside the building most definitely has (on offense, particularly).

Well, the point is moot because he will be gone and the Rams are doing this because they want the next Head Coach to have his guy or they are hiring a higher profile GM. I don't dislike Snead, but in this case you do throw the baby out with the bathwater.
 

thirteen28

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Well, the point is moot because he will be gone and the Rams are doing this because they want the next Head Coach to have his guy or they are hiring a higher profile GM. I don't dislike Snead, but in this case you do throw the baby out with the bathwater.

He probably will be gone, I agree about that. But if he does a good job elsewhere, we may come to regret it. That will be amplified if some of the players brought in during his tenure blossom with new coaching.
 

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Ok, you tell me how you would have retained Tru, JJ, and McLeod without blowing up the cap and putting us in eventual cap hell. And don't forget that many fans around here were more than ready to let JJ take a walk. Fact is, he offered JJ a contract commensurate with his worth, New York outbid us. But we still had TruJo and EJ coming back. Had EJ not taken as long to recover from injury, you probably wouldn't even mention this. And as far as who got the franchise tag between TruJo and JJ, make no mistake that Fisher had input, if not the final call.

With respect to McLeod, while he was a good safety, we had Alexander waiting in the wings, and Mo hasn't disappointed. He was a younger, cheaper alternative who grew into the role quite nicely. While I appreciate McLeod's contributions while he was a Ram, thanks to the play of Alexander, Rodney hasn't been missed that much.

As far as giving Fisher the green light, that buck stops with Stan, not with Demoff. Demoff isn't going to hire or fire any HC without Stan giving the thumbs up or thumbs down.



It's not a case of blaming one guy for all the good and blaming the other for all the bad. Our scouting department was an absolute mess before Snead got here, and it's much, much better now. Snead found plenty of good raw material for Fisher to work with, but Fisher had the final say as to who got picked and who coached those players. Snead had absolutely nothing to do with the hiring of three progressively worse OCs, where the first one was already mediocre. The calls on the coordinators and the position coaches (responsible for coaching up the players picked) was all on Fisher, and while Fisher did a fine job with that on the defensive side of the ball, he did abysmally bad on the offensive side of the ball - i.e. the part of the team where players have not been developed or have regressed.

Fisher bears the brunt of the responsibility, because he had final say in who was drafted, who coached the players who were drafted, who stayed on the final roster and who was cut, who dressed on game days, when the challenge flag was pulled, when it wasn't, when to go for it on 4th down and when not to, when to try a fake punt, in how practices and training camps were run, and so on. He wanted final say and full roster control and he got it. Snead's job was to find the kind of players Fisher wanted, Fisher's job was to make sure they were coached up.

Snead will be a good GM in this league. It's just a matter of who he will be good for at this point. I'm ok with him not being retained if its necessary to get the coach that the Rams need (e.g., if Harbaugh were available and Snead had to go as a condition of his hiring, I would understand). But if that condition is not present, I think he should be kept around. Scouting and finding players that the coach wanted hasn't been the big problem around here. Coaching those players once inside the building most definitely has (on offense, particularly).
They found room to overpay for Tavon Austin, how could they not at least retain Jenkins? The team has a ton of cap room. If they want more cap room they could just not resign good players, but they wouldn't win. Letting Jenkins walk was bad. Giving Austin a huge undeserved contract extension was bad (a year after they did the same thing for Foles).
 

den-the-coach

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He probably will be gone, I agree about that. But if he does a good job elsewhere, we may come to regret it. That will be amplified if some of the players brought in during his tenure blossom with new coaching.

Very true, but thus is the NFL...Snead is affable and I wonder what would have happen if the club was defacto GM as opposed to Head Coach. However, Snead knew the scenario he was getting into and IMHO, how do we know what Snead actually did and what Fisher actually did personnel wise? We don't, I agree with you he did a great job of retooling the scouting department, however, this is a business where you are judged by wins and losses and in this case, Snead was not part of a regime that garnered enough W's....Bottom Line.

And BTW @thirteen28 I have enjoyed this, your points were well thought out and this is why ROD is awesome and you are one of the reasons why!
 

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He probably will be gone, I agree about that. But if he does a good job elsewhere, we may come to regret it. That will be amplified if some of the players brought in during his tenure blossom with new coaching.

I like Snead and think after this experience he'll climb back into a GM position. His trade up for Goff is going to be viewed as brilliant for the fortunes of the team in about 3-5 years. But he needs to not be the GM they build around. Why? Because he had his time just like Fish and didn't get it done.

IMO the most important move a GM makes is his head coaching hire. That single move affects every player he will bring in from the aspect of coaching/development, and it will affect his job security since head coaches are an enormous part of the equation on wins and losses which are his report card.

Les is gone and I wish him luck. Chances are Pioli will be hired away from Atlanta, so it would not surprise me if Les slid into that type of job either there in Atlanta or elsewhere. If I am a team not named the Rams looking for good people for my front office I would certainly bring Les in and find out which guys he was behind in the draft and the inside story on what happened with the Rams.
 

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They found room to overpay for Tavon Austin, how could they not at least retain Jenkins?

The Tavon signing is a very big indicator of how deep the Rams' problems went. Not only did they move up for a guy who has never found consistency as a playmaker, but their self-professed smashmouth style did not fit him. Tavon was a fit for an offense like that of the Saints, not a knuckle-dragging Jeff Fisher neanderthal attack. The identity crisis between who they brought in and what Fish thought they were was significant.

And for them to sign him to that contract based on expectations... Well, for me, if I am Stan Kroenke, that alone is cause for a full house cleaning and addition of a coach who actually CAN get return from guys like Tavon, Gurley, and Goff.
 

thirteen28

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And BTW @thirteen28 I have enjoyed this, your points were well thought out and this is why ROD is awesome and you are one of the reasons why!

Thanks, Den ;)(y)

IMO the most important move a GM makes is his head coaching hire. That single move affects every player he will bring in from the aspect of coaching/development, and it will affect his job security since head coaches are an enormous part of the equation on wins and losses which are his report card.

Assuming the GM gets to make the hire, yes. But Fisher was hired before Snead, and Snead was chosen by Fisher.

Les is gone and I wish him luck. Chances are Pioli will be hired away from Atlanta, so it would not surprise me if Les slid into that type of job either there in Atlanta or elsewhere. If I am a team not named the Rams looking for good people for my front office I would certainly bring Les in and find out which guys he was behind in the draft and the inside story on what happened with the Rams.

As I discussed with Den, yes he probably is gone, and I wish him luck as long as he's not in the NFC West. I just hope he doesn't take a bunch of scouts with him.

As far as what happens, I really don't think it's any mystery - we've simply had lousy coaching on the offensive side of the ball which led to the offense dragging down the whole team. Whether or not the players brought in were capable of being developed into quality NFL players is an open question, but the fact that our offensive coaching has been abysmally bad is beyond dispute.


They found room to overpay for Tavon Austin, how could they not at least retain Jenkins? The team has a ton of cap room. If they want more cap room they could just not resign good players, but they wouldn't win. Letting Jenkins walk was bad. Giving Austin a huge undeserved contract extension was bad (a year after they did the same thing for Foles).

The Tavon signing is a very big indicator of how deep the Rams' problems went. Not only did they move up for a guy who has never found consistency as a playmaker, but their self-professed smashmouth style did not fit him. Tavon was a fit for an offense like that of the Saints, not a knuckle-dragging Jeff Fisher neanderthal attack. The identity crisis between who they brought in and what Fish thought they were was significant.

FRO, see Merlin's post, re: the identity crisis on offense. Fisher liked Tavon and made no secret of that, and again, he had the final call on who stayed and who went. That was part of the deal he wanted and was a significant factor in him choosing the Rams over the Dolphins. He's the one that prioritized Austin over Jenkins, not Demoff. Kevin's job was to write a contract and he did that. And if it's written like many of the other contracts, the Rams will be able to walk away after a year or two should the next coach not be able to make something out of Austin.
 

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You can't blame Fisher for the bad stuff and credit Snead with the Good. Fisher had a major impact on the UDFA, in fact, Benny Cunningham was all Fisher, he watched at Middle Tennessee and really liked him. Now yes Snead did some good things, but the proof is in winning football games and this regime did not get it done, so it's time to move on from Head Coach & General Manager IMHO.

The Rams are an embarrassment. We both agree.

So let's identify where our disagreement lies.

You have said, to paraphrase, that we are what our record says that we are and that as a result we should clean house.

I have said that the issue was coaching and not the personell.

So, we both agree that the coaching is horrendous. Where we disagree is on the quality of personell.

We also agree that Snead reported to Fisher.

But we disagree on to what degree Snead should be held responsible for the personell.

If we use your logic, that we are what our record says we are, then that means that we have ~4-11 personell and that Snead should be fired regardless of whether he was acting in a GM or a Director of Player Personell position.

If that were true (And the House Should be cleaned) answer me this question; How was Fisher able to go .500 before this year with sub-.500 talent???
 

FRO

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Thanks, Den ;)(y)



Assuming the GM gets to make the hire, yes. But Fisher was hired before Snead, and Snead was chosen by Fisher.



As I discussed with Den, yes he probably is gone, and I wish him luck as long as he's not in the NFC West. I just hope he doesn't take a bunch of scouts with him.

As far as what happens, I really don't think it's any mystery - we've simply had lousy coaching on the offensive side of the ball which led to the offense dragging down the whole team. Whether or not the players brought in were capable of being developed into quality NFL players is an open question, but the fact that our offensive coaching has been abysmally bad is beyond dispute.






FRO, see Merlin's post, re: the identity crisis on offense. Fisher liked Tavon and made no secret of that, and again, he had the final call on who stayed and who went. That was part of the deal he wanted and was a significant factor in him choosing the Rams over the Dolphins. He's the one that prioritized Austin over Jenkins, not Demoff. Kevin's job was to write a contract and he did that. And if it's written like many of the other contracts, the Rams will be able to walk away after a year or two should the next coach not be able to make something out of Austin.
Fisher also wanted to sign Jenkins and McLeod, was told it was a done deal, and the Rams lost them both. That's on Demoff.
 

den-the-coach

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If that were true (And the House Should be cleaned) answer me this question; How was Fisher able to go .500 before this year with sub-.500 talent???

He never went .500!
 

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I don't think I'd characterize JJ or Ogletree as raw ... both of those guys started as rookies. JJ was NFL-ready and played like it right out of the gate. 'Tree had some growing pains, but it wasn't as if he was some Quick-like project either. He had the typical rookie ups and downs. TJ Mac looked like a rookie 3rd rounder, but wasn't a disaster either, he had some level of NFL readiness (and don't forget, missed a big chunk of his rookie year with a broken leg). Yes, they were good athletes, but they also showed some level of readiness to play in the NFL coming out; they were not projects. And on the flip side, they took EJ who fell because of the lack of eye-popping athleticism ... but they thought he was NFL ready (and his rookie season bore that out). So in general, I don't think you can say the defensive picks were raw. They needed some development to be sure, but they also had some degree of NFL readiness.

Quick on the other hand had never had a playbook, while GRob played in an offense that asked him to nothing close to what he was going to do in the professional ranks (and was very young to boot). Those guys were raw and were a long way from being NFL ready when they came out.

As I said in another thread, I would be more willing to take a risk on guys like Quick and GRob if it was already a good team, but during the building phase, would emphasize NFL-readiness over athleticism (e.g., Alshon Jeffrey over Quick, Jake Matthews of GRob). However, on that latter point, given the abysmal offensive coaching we've had with the Rams over the last 5 years, it wouldn't surprise me if my preferred picks on offense would have struggled.

I disagree. Ogletree and JJ were ready to play but we're chosen for athleticism. If they were clean on character concerns they both go much higher, yes but both had an adjustment to the league. It is what, year three for Tree? And he is just coming into his own, matching his athletic potential. Superior athleticism has always been Fisher and Sneads calling card. They willingly traded down thinking they could get volume but still get elite talent by focusing on athleticism, on both sides of the ball. Go back and look at SPARQ scores and you will see that most Rams picks rate very high considering where they were taken.
 

den-the-coach

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Alright, coach. You win. Let's bring in the Shanahans.

Your post with all the point/counter point was absolutely brilliant plus it had information that I had posted too, however, the last point was just a tad off....I really enjoyed it and who knows where the Rams are going? The 49ers will now be in the mix and are interested in both Shanahans as well....Anyway Happy New Year my Ram brother and continue your great posts because once a Ram, always a Ram!
 

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Your post with all the point/counter point was absolutely brilliant plus it had information that I had posted too, however, the last point was just a tad off....I really enjoyed it and who knows where the Rams are going? The 49ers will now be in the mix and are interested in both Shanahans as well....Anyway Happy New Year my Ram brother and continue your great posts because once a Ram, always a Ram!

Happy New Year Coach! I really enjoyed getting to interact with such a good football mind. I also was approaching it from the perspective that I may have something to learn, although I thought I was "right". I'm looking forward to our Rams next move. We've got a QB!
 

thirteen28

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I disagree. Ogletree and JJ were ready to play but we're chosen for athleticism. If they were clean on character concerns they both go much higher, yes but both had an adjustment to the league. It is what, year three for Tree? And he is just coming into his own, matching his athletic potential. Superior athleticism has always been Fisher and Sneads calling card. They willingly traded down thinking they could get volume but still get elite talent by focusing on athleticism, on both sides of the ball. Go back and look at SPARQ scores and you will see that most Rams picks rate very high considering where they were taken.

That's just it thought - athletic, but could play.

GRob, Quick - athletic, but won't know if they can play until coached up.