12th Man Sets Guiness Record

[-X-]

We're gonna play there late this year, and it very well could be for a playoff spot,what a travesty it would be if we miss the playoffs because they want to set another worlds record instead of seeing the superior team advance.

The league needs to do something it's gotten out of hand.

Would you have the same concerns if it was the Edward Jones Dome that set the record? Again, I really dislike that team, its stadium and its fans, but if their fan base is able to generate that kind of HFA, then good for them. They put themselves in the position of cultivating that kind of advantage, and they're going to continue to make it a reality. Every single one of them (rightfully so), wants to take credit for being famous in this regard.

I think a lawsuit is completely out of the question too. A precedent has already been set with the breaking of the record, so anyone that goes there does so with full knowledge that the atmosphere is going to be exceedingly loud. I think the expectation of reasonable safety only applies to physical well-being; and the OSHA standards you cite are only for workplace safety, so only employees of the stadium can lodge a complaint. That won't be happening anytime soon, I don't think.

It is an interesting topic though, Thor. If you know anyone with some legal expertise in this area (not sure what area that would be), maybe you could run it by them and see if there's even a case? Visiting fans would probably be able to sue (because you can sue for virtually anything nowadays), but it would be good to know if it's even something that can be filed.

That is what is known as an ignoratio elenchi,IOW I am not the subject nor what is what I like nor dislike the subject,IF I was the most foam at the mouth asshat in the stadium and had altered my vocal chords to emit 400 decibels of ear shattering noise WOULDN'T change what I am contending here.
If I was a hypocrite WOULD that change how you felt about the 12th man?
It shouldn't, the fans being rewarded for behavior that effects the game is the issue here for me and when it gets to the point this has you really need to take notice and realize what you allow you teach and the NFL is ASKING for trouble over this. And again they changed a rule for the worse,I fail to see it wasn't ,I don't need an 8-8 team that can only win at home because we are so loud the other team can't run a play and that's where this shit is headed.

I don't care what it's called. I'm just asking if you would have the same concerns. I'm already on record saying that I don't *like* anything about the seadderall seahawks, but I don't really see anything wrong with them creating that kind of advantage for their team. I'd be pleased as punch if the dome (which could easily break the record due to its enclosed design) was able to generate that kind of advantage for OUR team.

And upon further review I DO CARE what it's called because as I said ,I am not the issue here,my attitudes don't change whether it's a bastardization of competitive advantage and since you are adamant about wanting to KNOW how I would view it, I want a team that doesn't need that to win at home,I want a team that can win because they are better and relying upon "crutches" in competition and life breeds cripples.
So NO that's a game I don't want to engage in, hearty cheers of appreciation for a job well done an effort well made,fine, but LIKE I said X I saw a St.L Cardinal team get robbed of the likelihood of a World Championship by a HHHumphry crowd blowing whistles and other shenanigans WORTHY of Ray Lewis' crackpot FIX theories and that league outlaws artificial noise makers now as does the NFL,it's a principle as you say, and if principles aren't worth fighting for WTF is.

Once again I apologize to my fellow posters for being strident about this, is there little doubt after the way the 49r's were throttled last night that the same thing is going to happen to us?If we go in there needing a win to get in the playoffs ,will the game be worth watching ?

Are you going to defend it then X? Cheated out of it,I'd fucking rather they taped our walk through,at least we were allowed to compete in that game.

I ask kindly ,broach this subject with Mr.Demoff if you have a chance, the appropriate response to that thuggery is just not IMO more of the same ,escalation is not the answer but it will be if the league doesn't get a grip on it,it's seriously diminishing my desire to watch the sport and as the old Slattery's people line went "hey it's just one guy complaining,but every complaint represents 10,000 who are silent" er sumthin like that.

I don't understand. You don't want to answer me because it's not about you, but then you ask me if I'd still defend it under different circumstances (making it about me)? Well, the answer is still yes. I'm pretty consistent that way. If their crowd causes us to lose, then we weren't meant to win. Just like any aspect of any other game not on your own turf, you have to trust the coaches to game plan against things, and the players to execute under the guidelines of that game plan.

I refuse (REFUSE) to accept that we can't win a game because the opposing team's fans are being too loud. The quickest way to neutralize that is to kick the shit out of their team early and often.

I did answer your question it's bolded .

I don't really think the scenario I posed is close to being at all far fetched, what is more you can refuse to accept whatever ,what you can not deny is that the game of football can and often does turn on the outcome of a single play, preventing a QB from audible-ing out of a play causing false starts ,those things DO effect outcomes of games and you were earlier in the thread wholeheartedly in favor of US winning because we did what they do. So explain PLEASZE that there contradiction Mr DUDE.

AS I see you don't think a mirror would be OK IOW effecting the sense of sight would be beyond your line BUT YOU DO draw a line where fan participation becomes unacceptable,seems I draw my line a little ahead of where you do I believe the sense of hearing is JUST as important often enough in the game fans aught not be able to impede it.

I didn't draw a line, and I don't see where I contradicted myself.
Hand signals are in place in the event players can't hear, so...

Here's where we stand.

You think the Seadderall crowd noise is excessive, and someone ought to sue (you even mentioned death).
I think the Seadderall crowd noise is excessive, and we should be doing the same.

Other than that? I dunno.

 

[Thordaddy]

You did draw a line X ,you said a mirror in the stands to blind the QB should not be permitted,or was that another X who said that? :omg:


As far as where we stand

you said

"I think the Seadderall crowd noise is excessive, and we should be doing the same."


So because they do something "excessive " which I take to mean BEYOND reasonable standards, we should follow suit,NAH we should petition to have them accept reasonable standards,ONE OF US needs to infuse some sense in the situation.

When I mentioned death I think IF you will re read what I was saying you should see that it was in reference to the belief that unrestrained crowd noise is no accident, people are whipped into a frenzy to do that and that AFTER allowing large groups of people even encouraging them to be whipped into frenzies you share a certain culpability if they go to far. Kinda like teasing a dog,sooner or later the dog bites, let drunks come into the stadium whip them into a frenzy,sell them a little more beer and act like when they go off the rails and hurt a visiting fan you are not party to it, I don't buy it.
Seattle has SUCH a problem with home fans assaulting visiting fans they put under cover cops in visitors jerseys to stop it, I think there is a direct correlation to the 12th man and ALL you need to find is a few more guys who think the way I do about this for a jury and viola chaching, wrongful death suit.
Nah teams need to just back off this and the league needs to encourage civility not mass hysteria,it's gotten to dangerous levels and impairs the integrity of the competition. The USTA has this right ,the NFL is dragging knuckles on this.

I wrote the league ,I encourage those who agree to do the same,they have a negative comments in their contacts. We'll see if Goodell thinks if one person objects to something they need to listen like he says he does about the Redskins name.

 

[-X-]

You did draw a line X ,you said a mirror in the stands to blind the QB should not be permitted,or was that another X who said that? :omg:

I also said assault rifles and IEDs were a no-no. Really, I don't think this could get anymore convoluted.

So because they do something "excessive " which I take to mean BEYOND reasonable standards, we should follow suit,NAH we should petition to have them accept reasonable standards,ONE OF US needs to infuse some sense in the situation.

Yes, that's how YOU take it. Excessive doesn't mean illegal to me. It means excessive. And yes, I do think we should follow suit. We should follow suit until the dome noise is excessive to visitors. So what?

When I mentioned death I think IF you will re read what I was saying you should see that it was in reference to the belief that unrestrained crowd noise is no accident, people are whipped into a frenzy to do that and that AFTER allowing large groups of people even encouraging them to be whipped into frenzies you share a certain culpability if they go to far. Kinda like teasing a dog,sooner or later the dog bites, let drunks come into the stadium whip them into a frenzy,sell them a little more beer and act like when they go off the rails and hurt a visiting fan you are not party to it, I don't buy it.

Who shares a culpability? The league or the stadium authority? Two different entities.
And is your referendum applicable to Monster Truck Rallies? Giant WWE venues? Soccer matches? Rock concerts? Raucous crowds gather everywhere that houses 60,000 people and host events that are cause for celebration. Really, you kinda have to put this in perspective and realize that this is going to amount to nothing unless you expect the Senate to jump in and make unilateral decisions for every large seating event there is in the Country.

Seattle has SUCH a problem with home fans assaulting visiting fans they put under cover cops in visitors jerseys to stop it, I think there is a direct correlation to the 12th man and ALL you need to find is a few more guys who think the way I do about this for a jury and viola chaching, wrongful death suit.

So would it be any different if there were, say, 40,000 fans instead of 60,000? If so, then you have to now quantify what percentage of that crowd is criminal. Or are you now subscribing to mob mentality as the issue there? Because, again, now you have to quantify how little the crowd needs to become to no longer be a threat. You're not looking for rules about noise anymore. Now you're inadvertently looking for crowd CONTROL at that stadium.

Nah teams need to just back off this and the league needs to encourage civility not mass hysteria,it's gotten to dangerous levels and impairs the integrity of the competition. The USTA has this right ,the NFL is dragging knuckles on this.

Nah. More home teams need to be pushing the edge of the decibel record. Particularly the Rams' crowd.

I wrote the league ,I encourage those who agree to do the same,they have a negative comments in their contacts. We'll see if Goodell thinks if one person objects to something they need to listen like he says he does about the Redskins name.

That's certainly you're prerogative. Obviously I'm not going to petition the league to institute yet another rule - particularly one that governs how a home crowd represents their team. What's next? Ask the league to cut out all the tailgating, because fans walk INTO a stadium lit up or drunk? Why not make them force stadiums to quit serving alcohol during a game? Where do you draw the line?

And quite honestly, I don't know why you feel the need to personally take up the mantle on this. Nobody got hurt, and you're not directly affected by any of it. There are causes, and then there are, well, *causes*. This one, to me, seems a bit frivolous.

 

[fearsomefour]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/23678037/seahawks-fans-sets-guinness-world-record-for-loudest-stadium

Hit 131.9 DB's

I looked up the OSHA max exposure allowable w/o earplugs 115 DB's for less than 1/4 Hr.

When are they gonna get sued?

The commonly agreed to threshold of pain 130 DBs,IOW it COULD classify as torture.

I'm sure it's written into some by law that fans accept responsibility by knowingly attending a sporting event with a realistic possibility of high decibel exposure.

That would be in legal term an exculpatory clause, which few actually hold up in court especially IF they are asking for acceptance of terms that are themselves not legal ,which for the vendors to be exposed to that level of noise without ear protection it is not.

I am as anti litigious as X and or anyone else on this board however ya gotta be ignoring the elephant in the room to pretend the advantage is not artificial ,pervasive, effective and violates any pretense of fair play along with codified workplace regulations other employers are being burdened with.

Did anyone SEE the concussion lawsuit coming 10 years ago,let me rephrase that how many of us saw it coming ? Is that not the camels nose under the tent ?
I'd rather this was settled by acknowledging the mistake they made when they decided to let the bulldog off it's chain,but when SITTING in my man cave the noise of a crowd grates so on me that I decide to eschew watching a game I was anticipating greatly, a noticeable difference has been made and a well run league needs to be aware that popularity can't insulate you from scrutiny forever.

We're gonna play there late this year, and it very well could be for a playoff spot,what a travesty it would be if we miss the playoffs because they want to set another worlds record instead of seeing the superior team advance.

The league needs to do something it's gotten out of hand.

Out of hand as opposed to what? Playing in Green Bay in December when it might be -10 degrees? Playing in Denver at elevation? Those teams can practice in those conditions (Denver being the biggest home field advantage) and will be able to perform better. The best team may not prevail because of the home field conditions....I see nothing different here. Denver running a no huddle at elevation is a huge advantage and is perfectly legal. So is having a crowd that is loud. Teams can beat Seattle in Seattle they just have to be very prepared and disciplined.

 

[moklerman]

I don't think I've ever heard someone condemn a team's fans for being too loud. Those are generally considered good fans.

I know that I used to love the ED getting too loud for the opposition back in the GSOT days.

 

[Thordaddy]

Well I'm done after this post, cuz people have lapsed into characterizing and that's pretty PD and this place is supposed to be better than that.
Hopefully I haven't characterized any of you nor your arguments, and saying you respect and then acting disrespectful does not justify the latter.

We ALL draw lines as to where fan participation needs to end for me it's when the ability to compete in a visiting stadium is profoundly diminished.

There are things that are inherent home field advantages,GB in Dec, Denver because of the altitude AZ and Fla early season, Seattle because of the rain,these are things that are not artificial,noise is noise,whether it's created by A fan or A loud speaker and it's an artificial factor regardless if it's voices or loud speakers.
My contention as far as the level playing field or integrity of the competition goes is that it doesn't matter to the visiting team who or what emits the noise that prevents them from hearing and that every team aught to have the same competitive environment if it's possible to supply it. Weather and altitude don't change according to who has the ball BTW,like I said they are inherent, crowd noise isn't so ifit isn't inherent it is artificial and so in fairness everyone should be allowed to generate as much as anyone is allowed to and from whence it comes should not be a league rule if the league won't control some of the members methods while controlling other members methods.

I get the so lets just do it ourselves as far as it's motive to establish "fairness" the problem is currently there are no limits to how far this can escalate first and second that encouragement of mass hysteria has a pretty ugly history and the NFL might want to examine how they could be contributing to some ugly ancillary behavior before an enterprising litigator does.
If McDonalds can be sued over hot coffee the league can be sued over the encouragement of mass hysteria and resultant dysfunctional behavior , just sayin' now I'll give anyone who wants to characterize what I said here the opportunity for the last word here but know this ,saying someone is "characterizing" is my way of saying "hey this isn't supposed to be about the poster " I hope I haven't done that here

 

[albefree69]

I want to start this off by mentioning that after my 11-5 start I went 13-3 this week in the pick 'ems. :bg:

Here are my last thoughts on the noise issue. I'm not complaining about the noise in the Seahag staduim. I'm complaining about the ORGANIZED (not counting cheer leaders) efforts to create enough noise that the other team can't get their plays off correctly. I have no problem with normal very loud fan support but trying to interfere with the other teams plays isn't cheering on your team.

Tennis fans don't seem to have a problem with becoming silent when a guy is trying to serve. I only mention this to debunk the idea that the fans should be allowed to to do whatever they want because they're paying the salaries.

Now on to Rabid's request. I'll start this off with a little primer (designed to keep these kinds of requests to a minimum :lol: ).

First of all I said a "bunch" of advantages and not a "plethora" of advantages. Here's the order of that:
Some = 1+
A couple = 2
A few = 3+
A bunch = 5+
Plethora = 20+
Shit loads = a plethora of plethoras

Second of all, I'll have to include the "travel" advantage because you can't arbitrarily take away one of my answers and still expect me to reach my target of a "bunch".

1) Travel
2) Indoor field (think GZ)
3) Outdoor field (teams more suited to cold/bad weather)
4) High Altitude (Denver)
5) Artificial Surface (GSOT)
That's 5 already and now for the +.
6) Officiating (home teams tend to get the benefit of the doubt more often than not due to human nature)
7) Playing in front of your family members.
8) Cheer leaders

I din't spend a lot of time thinking about this so I could probably come up with a few more if I gave it a little more effort. :bg:

 

[-X-]

I want to start this off by mentioning that after my 11-5 start I went 13-3 this week in the pick 'ems. :bg:

Doh! Thanks for reminding me to update the scores.

 

[Rabid Ram]

I want to start this off by mentioning that after my 11-5 start I went 13-3 this week in the pick 'ems. :bg:

Here are my last thoughts on the noise issue. I'm not complaining about the noise in the Seahag staduim. I'm complaining about the ORGANIZED (not counting cheer leaders) efforts to create enough noise that the other team can't get their plays off correctly. I have no problem with normal very loud fan support but trying to interfere with the other teams plays isn't cheering on your team.

Tennis fans don't seem to have a problem with becoming silent when a guy is trying to serve. I only mention this to debunk the idea that the fans should be allowed to to do whatever they want because they're paying the salaries.

Now on to Rabid's request. I'll start this off with a little primer (designed to keep these kinds of requests to a minimum :lol: ).

First of all I said a "bunch" of advantages and not a "plethora" of advantages. Here's the order of that:
Some = 1+
A couple = 2
A few = 3+
A bunch = 5+
Plethora = 20+
shyte loads = a plethora of plethoras

Second of all, I'll have to include the "travel" advantage because you can't arbitrarily take away one of my answers and still expect me to reach my target of a "bunch".

1) Travel
2) Indoor field (think GZ)
3) Outdoor field (teams more suited to cold/bad weather)
4) High Altitude (Denver)
5) Artificial Surface (GSOT)
That's 5 already and now for the +.
6) Officiating (home teams tend to get the benefit of the doubt more often than not due to human nature)
7) Playing in front of your family members.
8) Cheer leaders

I din't spend a lot of time thinking about this so I could probably come up with a few more if I gave it a little more effort. :bg:

Gotta love you albe always have a great response to any challenge

 

[Thordaddy]

Albe succinctly identifies the problem

Here are my last thoughts on the noise issue. I'm not complaining about the noise in the Seahag staduim. I'm complaining about the ORGANIZED (not counting cheer leaders) efforts to create enough noise that the other team can't get their plays off correctly. I have no problem with normal very loud fan support but trying to interfere with the other teams plays isn't cheering on your team.

 

[RamzFanz]

fan fanaticism

That's redundant. Fan comes from fanatic.

 

[RamzFanz]

I would add if I were a visiting player, an employee of the NFL and player's union member, I would sue. That's an unnecessary dangerous working condition and they have no right to force me to work in those conditions.

If forcing players to bear artificial hazardous sound levels is a part of the game then suing to disrupt the artificial advantage is too.

Suing to protect your health is not frivolous.

 

[moklerman]

This argument seems to be contingent on the idea of a "level playing field" which I think is where it also loses validity. Regular season games are not played at a neutral site.

I think this is a real slippery slope. If you restrict crowd noise in the name of equitable playing conditions then where does it stop? All the fields would have to be the same turf, all the stadiums would have to be domes, etc.

 

[Rabid Ram]

This argument seems to be contingent on the idea of a "level playing field" which I think is where it also loses validity. Regular season games are not played at a neutral site.

I think this is a real slippery slope. If you restrict crowd noise in the name of equitable playing conditions then where does it stop? All the fields would have to be the same turf, all the stadiums would have to be domes, etc.

I actually originally disagreed with thor but on further review of his point I find myself agreeing. As far as loud fans hes not disagreeing with that. His disagreement is to whipping people up into an INTENTIONAL FRENZY. Mob mentality can be dangerous see denver after first superbowl win in the 90s. Their is a difference between cheering and just acting like an idiot just making random noise.

Sent from my SCH-R760X using Tapatalk 2

 

[MTRamsFan]

By Sid Saraf, Laces Out of FOX Sports

BTW... I apologize for the obscene photo!


http://t.foxsports.msn.com/nfl/49ers-fans-seahawks-fans-are-too-loud

Not sure how many have seen this recent article, but I laughed at the actual letters written by some Whiners fans. But on a serious note, doesn't the league still have the rule regarding the visiting team being able to hear, and if it was too loud the home team would get a warning and if it continued could be flagged for delay of game. I remember a few years back seeing QBs turning to the ref as if they couldn't hear, and the refs would warn the home team about it. Or, maybe I was dreaming. :boing:

P.S. I now know this "journalist" is a true blue shecocks fan! Garbage.

 

[LosAngelesRams]

Some dude commented in the article, he heard the reason why they are so loud is because they hand out dildos to the fans at the entrances and they get shoved in there asses. Hence the mixed emotion faces with bulging veins out the neck. Lmao.

 

[fearsomefour]

""Their is a difference between cheering and just acting like an idiot just making random noise.""

The fact they cheer like mad and are very loud when their team is on D and not nearly as much when they are on O would indicate it is not random noise.

They possess a home field advantage most teams would want. Good on them.

 

[Ebonemalone]

I still maintain they pipe the crowd noise through the speakers to make it louder. That would certainly be grounds for a lawsuit if someone proved it.

I've gone to 5 of the most recent rams at Seahawks games, and I agree!

 

[Thordaddy]

fan fanaticism

That's redundant. Fan comes from fanatic.

AKSHULLY it isn't one is person the other is an attribute ,but I see from your next post you see the logic behind my brilliant contentions ergo we are somewhere on the same page and NOW even in the same post,BTW I liked the original booty picture ,just sayin that was a world class tush,my fervent wish is that you know her in the biblical sense.

 

[Rabid Ram]

""Their is a difference between cheering and just acting like an idiot just making random noise.""

The fact they cheer like mad and are very loud when their team is on D and not nearly as much when they are on O would indicate it is not random noise.

They possess a home field advantage most teams would want. Good on them.

Think you misinterpreted my use of random. I was not discussing the timing of said noise. What I ment was they are not just cheering they are all just making random nonsense sounds to be as loud as possible. Controled btw by the stadum announcer and the decible meter on the video screens. I am with the contingent that they are piping in artificial noise.

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