Would you have kept Marvin Lewis?

[FRO]

No mulligan his first 22 games with Bradford compared to Lewis' first 22 games with Palmer

Well in 2003 his QB was Jon Kitna. In 2004 it was Carson Palmer was starting for the first time ever. He went 8-8 both years. Year 3 he goes 11-5. That's after inheriting the worst team in the 90s that was brutal to start the 2000s. It's not like he was thrust into a better situation than Fisher. He didn't have the benefit of an RGIII bounty. He was able to build 2 good offenses in his tenure there. It's not a good comparison.

He took a team that went 11 out of the previous 12 years had losing seasons and the only non losing season the team was 8-8 and took them to 3 consecutive non losing seasons. Had Fisher accomplished that, I would be more than willing to give him major slack. I will wipe 2014 off the map. His first 3 years still do not compare to Lewis'.

 

[FRO]

No mulligan his first 22 games with Bradford compared to Lewis' first 22 games with Palmer

His first 22 games with Palmer he was 17-5.

 

[blackbart]

His first 22 games with Palmer he was 17-5.

No Palmer was 6-7 in 2004 and the the first 9 games in 2005 he was 7-2

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PalmCa00.htm

 

[FRO]

No Palmer was 6-7 in 2004 and the the first 9 games in 2005 he was 7-2

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PalmCa00.htm

You're totally right. My bad. Was looking at the 2004 roster and I clicked on his name, it showed this year's stats and I was too stupid to realize it's impossible for a team to go 9-2 under a QB and only win 8 games all year.

Still 13-9 is still much better.

 

[blackbart]

You're totally right. My bad. Was looking at the 2004 roster and I clicked on his name, it showed this year's stats and I was too stupid to realize it's impossible for a team to go 9-2 under a QB and only win 8 games all year.

Still 13-9 is still much better.

No worries.

What I was attempting to show was that when Fisher had a healthy Bradford his record was very close to what Lewis and Carson put up in their same first 22 games. 13-9 vs 10-11-1

I think it demonstrates that with a decent QB Fisher can be as successful as anyone.

 

[FRO]

No worries.

What I was attempting to show was that when Fisher had a healthy Bradford his record was very close to what Lewis and Carson put up in their same first 22 games. 13-9 vs 10-11-1

I think it demonstrates that with a decent QB Fisher can be as successful as anyone.

But he ended up hand picking a horrible QB, and bad WRs. Lewis was able to build and offense with Johnson, TJ, Rudi to go along with Palmer. We have nothing close to that, outside Gurley being superior to Rudi. It's more than not having a QB.

 

[blackbart]

But he ended up hand picking a horrible QB, and bad WRs. Lewis was able to build and offense with Johnson, TJ, Rudi to go along with Palmer. We have nothing close to that, outside Gurley being superior to Rudi. It's more than not having a QB.

I completely agree with it being more than the QB. I hate the way they neglected the o line when they KNEW they had their franchise QB when they got here. I blame both of Bradford's injuries to failures on the o line. I get that Fisher wanted a dominant D but this team was so bad it was a wholesale rebuild so protect the QB first build the D second. That is the part of the Fisher failure I still burn over.

That is ancient history now and the rebuild I thought had a definite plan with groups being built with 2015 being the o line turn FINALLY but as we know the injuries blew it all up before they could get rolling.

I guess only Stan knows what is in store but if Fisher is back or a new guy is in, I will be supporting him and praying that for once we can have a solid year with no major injuries.

 

[RamFan503]

LMK when Fisher is 11-5 with the Rams and then I will answer yes to keeping him.

Um..... Wouldn't that mean keeping him now?

 

[VegasRam]

Fisher really was dealt a pretty crap hand with this team to begin with. It was a large hole to dig out of, but he's had an opportunity to do so. I understand QB's and good offensive linemen don't grow on trees. That said, I really don't know if whoever made the decision to go into the season with what we have at those positions should be allowed to keep their job.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, because I'm not the smartest arm chair scout out there, but I consistently said Foles was a below average QB who's mechanics were atrocious. I sure know I also bitched about the line/picks there that everyone remembers as well. I specifically remember saying that the line was so weak an injury to Saffold could be enough to derail the season, and that might just have actually happened.

I know I sound like a pompous dick, but if someone as dumb as me and many other fans could see the freaking massive disaster which is this offense a mile away before the season started, why couldn't the men in charge?

Probably 'cuz they don't eat enough Triscuits. :shades:

 

[HitStick]

Honestly, I'd trust Kiper to build this Offense over Fisher any day.

 

[yrba1]

I won't get too salty over keeping Fisher in 2016 UNLESS he still has complete authority on the offense. The way Vermeil was able to make a complete 180 was letting Martz control the reigns on offense, I expect Fisher to do the same if he wants the fans' approval.

 

[Rainram]

I'm on the fence. Part of me likes continuity and stability.
The other part of me likes to see things burn.

I go back and forth too.

On game day, when I see him get out-coached. Plain and simple...out-coached. I'm done. (And it's an objective thing, not an emotional response)

Then comes Monday-Wednesday and I think about all the other elements that have been posed in Fisher's defense.

I want to focus real quick on our biggest and most obvious problem - Quarterback.

Fisher kinda got hamstrung a bit in the beginning with Bradford. One full season with what he thought was our QB of the future. in 2012, Fisher's first year, Sam had the best season of his career in terms of Total Yards, YPA, TDs, TD/INT Ratio. Here again, he thought he had the man at the helm that he wanted. The numbers weren't bad from the QB position, but the rest of team needed building. As he focused on that...and 2013 rolled around, Sam started well...he wasn't a world beater as the YPA were down (that was kinda telling of Sam and our offense as a whole)...but the numbers through 7 games were not bad at all. But this was barely year 2 of a HUGE re-build...and his QB goes down.

Lost his QB for the year half way through year 2.

Year 3 - I think most of us were fine rolling with Sam again given the 'development' in the first year and half under Fisher. Alas, Sam never sees the field in 2014 thanks to a second season-ending injury to your most critical position.

At this point, all of us had to know we were done with Bradford...but Fisher was screwed in 2014...and their overall plan got a mean kick to the nads I'm sure. 2014 was toast. Give the young guys a year to grow and learn and see what we can do the next year.

Year 4 - Gotta think Fisher and Les realize they cannot go into the season with Bradford (for a few reasons). But maybe they don't have many options/takers. Who knows how much they really liked Foles (obviously enough to give him an extension...perhaps a bit of an indictment). So they bail on Bradford and get a QB and a draft pick and salary cap relief in return...that's a WIN no matter how you slice it. 8 weeks into the season we realize he ain't the answer. He's not a quick fix. He's not someone who can manage the offense behind Gurley and the Defense. But what the hell else would you have had them do? They were out of range for Mariota and Winston...and if they sold out for them, we wouldn't have Gurley and our already thin OLine would be even WORSE. What could they have done to better address the QB spot at this point. I'll touch on this at the very end, if anyone cares to read on...but...

That brings us to right now...

Fisher has to know he's on the verge of getting canned. I'm sure he and Snead also think they have a kick ass defense and a once-in-a-generation RB. They're a QB/OLine/WR away from being contenders. But the QB is THE biggest piece to that puzzle. I would bet everything I have that Les is ENTIRELY focused on fixing our QB situation right now.

Why didn't they fix it earlier, you may ask? Well, Bradford was supposed to be the guy in 2012, 2013 and 2014. When that plan failed in no small part due to Bradford's injuries, they had to go a different route...albeit with very limited options...going into 2015. Their QB situation has been ambushed the past two seasons. And I think they tried to make the most of it, and maybe part of them was "hopeful" more than anything. But I really think they got hamstrung by the Bradford situation. He really set things back a bit.

So as much as seeing Fisher and this team on game day pisses me off lately...I try to keep it in perspective. I am okay letting him finish out his contract. They know they have to fix one thing primarily...the QB position...and to lesser extents, the OLine and WRs. His OLines in Tennessee were good, so I know he values that...and he did make an attempt this year (two high round picks and a vet in FA)

If they moved on from Fisher I would not lose any sleep...but if they keep him...color me interested in seeing how the off-season goes.

-------------------------
As for what else they could have done to address the QB situation...

In hindsight we can say he should have taken a QB in the draft to develop...ok...fair enough...but who? and in what round? and who do we lose out on? Mind you...on draft day in 2013...there was no reason to think we needed to spend valuable picks on QB with so many other holes and a decent Bradford. So our focus would have been the 2014 draft after Sam's first major injury...

It's easy right now to say Carr would have been a better pick than GRob. But who remembers the state of our OLine at that point? At #2 overall, most agreed that a shot a future LT was the way to go. It was between Matthews and Robinson. Some liked Mack, and some Bridgewater. Don't remember anyone pounding the table for Bortles or Manziel. So not too many people had a problem with the Robinson pick...even if right now many people are quite concerned.

Then came Donald (home run pick).

The Vikings got shrewd and moved up for Bridgewater...good move some would say...but I'm still not totally sold on the kid. I think the best pick was Carr at 36 overall. We really have no idea what went on in that draft...if we even considered Carr...if we had a shot at him or what. From there we ended up with Joyner, Mason and Mo Alexander in rounds 2, 3, 4...not bad picks...but I think we'd all rather have Carr at this point. And objectively, he may have been our only other possible solution...and that is awfully speculative.

So really, our QB situation is what has really hurt us and held us back. And while we can armchair quarterback it ourselves...I think they were kinda hoping for the best, and when they got caught in no-man's-land, so to speak, in 2014 and 2015, they tried to make the most of things. But it was too little, too late.

Meanwhile, even though our QB situation has become DIRE...they have done a good job building other parts of the team. Even on offense...Gurley, Tavon, GRob should be a good Guard if nothing else, Havenstein and Brown hopefully.

So I guess I can live with another year. What the hell.

(sorry, I know that was long...and I hate reading long posts myself)

 

[Mojo Ram]

Yeah i would have kept Lewis. Might have given up on Dalton though.

 

[den-the-coach]

Um..... Wouldn't that mean keeping him now?

That's an 11-5 record @RamFan503 not averaging 11.5 points per game.

 

[fancents86]

I don't see the comparison at all. Looking through this thread there are a few things that stick out that I don't agree with and I'll try to remember most of them

1. Like a few stated, Melvin posted a winning or .500 record in his first 3 seasons. That being the first winning record and playoff birth in 15 years. We haven't done that. I understand we had a much worse team in fishers first year, but with one draft and one round if free agency we still went from worst in the league to almost .500. Why are we consistently getting worse? Also Fisher has over 20 years of proving that his teams are nothing more than mediocre and struggle on offense.

2. Injuries, we have had a lot of injuries. But this problem has been one before Fisher was even here and before Spags. Someone mentioned Bradford and Amendola got injured once fisher got here, yet Amendola was getting injured frequently with Spags and BRadford was drafted knowing he had a history of injuries.

3. New coach=new defense. This more than likely may happen anyway bc from what I remember the majority of our defense has contracts up at around the same time. A few who's play argues a bit more of a pay check. Which brings me to question what Fisher was thinking, bc this had to have been screaming in the back of his mind while signing these players. Also if we just happen to keep our D and get a new coach, what coach In their right mind would mess up a proven product? harbaugh didn't switch up the Ravens amazing D when he came in. If we get a smart coach we'll be fine.

 

[-X-]

So I guess I can live with another year. What the hell.

(sorry, I know that was long...and I hate reading long posts myself)

No worries. I read it all. There are a lot of little micro-points that people could debate you on, but overall that's a good snapshot. As I keep saying, in hindsight, there's a lot Fisher could have done differently. But at the time, as these moves were unfolding, just about everybody was okay with how they were getting us out of the immediate trouble and trying to fix the things that happened outside of their control. In the end though, when your record keeps getting worse year after year, then people (important people) are going to assess you on your ability to overcome.

 

[dieterbrock]

Jason Garrett didn't have a winning season until year 4 1/2. I guess that's close.
And now he's tanking again. I guess we'll have to see what Jerruh does with him in year 6.

And he hasnt had a losing record yet either. Thats the thing, we dont have one season to hang our hat on.
I struggle with the integrity of calling an 8-8 record a "non winning" year as a support mechanism for this tenure.
First, it's also a "non losing" record and second, we havent had even had one.
3 straight home games coming up and I sure hope we can make some hay with the sun shining.
Looking at the challenges of this year, if we could somehow manage to get to 8-8, that would be something

 

[dieterbrock]

I'm all for stability with organizations. It's clear the best ones in the NFL have that from the top down. But the thing is they find the right guy first and then keep him around. They don't keep around guys who don't get the job done..

Yup. Baltimore didnt hang on to Ted Marchibroda, they upgraded to Brian Billick and won a Superbowl.
New England didnt hang on to Pete Carroll, they upgraded to Belechick and then....
NY Giants didnt hang on to Jim Fassel, they upgraded to Tom Coughlin and won Superbowls
Green Bay didnt hang on to Mike Sherman, they upgraded to Mike McCarthy and won a Superbowl
There still some time left to save this season IMO, and I hope it happens. But if it doesnt....

 

[…..]

Yeah, that Cincy parallel is coming up a lot lately. And it's valid.
They took numerous shots at building a good offense though, all the way back to Ocho Cinco and Houshyourmama.
We just need a stud WR and a decent QB and Fisher's fortunes will turn as well.

Agreed. And a little patience for our OL to grow up and gain experience and strength.

 

[dieterbrock]

What I was attempting to show was that when Fisher had a healthy Bradford his record was very close to what Lewis and Carson put up in their same first 22 games. 13-9 vs 10-11-1

I think it demonstrates that with a decent QB Fisher can be as successful as anyone.

Well, it was 10-12-1 for Sam and that's really not close to 13-9