Two seasons of Tavon Austin

[leoram]

I believe he is capable of so much more. Sure they can jam him in the slot but they cannot run with him. He has the ability to beat the safety deep as well as take a short pass to the house. And because he is so young I believe has will improve every year. I have no delusion that he could be a great no. 1 or no.2 for that matter...but I believe he could be a game breaker as a number 3....much like AZ Hakeem. ....I know there are people that disagree with me....and I'm OK with that.....this is just my opinion. .......
Go Rams................

This was my evaluation when we drafted him and it still is. Warner himself said the GSOT suffered most from the loss of Hakim more than any other single factor. While others lament he is not Beckham, he was never intended to fill that type of role.

Perhaps it's because knowledgeable fans aren't just kneejerking about the scoreboard, but are looking beyond that into the details.

This draft saw FOUR rookie Wide Receivers contribute significantly to their teams. That would NEVER happen in a Schotty offense. Just...NEVER... because rather than adjust to the talent, Schotty with minor variations runs *his* offense.

Thus, when receivers GET it and he has a QB and an OL and a RB...then his offense works. However, if any of that breaks... it all falls apart and DCs KNOW THAT. And as a fan, that's frustrating.

Um, football is a team game and all offenses are affected by weaknesses in any particular area.

3) The playcalling is just bad. When establishing the run, even when committing to establishing the interior run, there are LOTS of choices to doing that... constantly running into the A or B gap on the right side when we have Wells and Joseph over there is just really... bad. How many stuffs and TFL does it take (and thereby building up the Defense's confidence) in order to run OTHER interior run plays? There are runs to the left, Counter-tre's, draws... all sorts of options that take into account the issues that Wells and Joseph present. But Schotty calls run plays to the right like he's got All-pro C and ROG who will win that battle every time

And I'm sorry... I don't want the Moon to be in the Seventh House and Jupiter to align with Mars before we have an offense that can deal with injuries...ya know...in the NFL....where injuries happen to every team.

Yeah. Injuries. Warner's hand wasn't right, Faulk missed 6 games, Pace missed 6, Nutten missed 5, they lost London Fletcher, and all 3 linebackers missed time. The team as a whole only won 8 games and ranked near the bottom on both offense and defense. Who's the scapegoat there? Martz? Lovie Smith? Charlie Armey? Or, like in a lot of cases, injuries and turnover at key spots kept them from clicking on all cylinders?

Nice reply, X. My contribution here is that Schotty HAD to run our RBs behind Wells and Joseph BECAUSE they suck so badly that if we hadn't, the D could load up for penetration there on every play and the offense would blow up as badly as it did under McDaniels.

Furthermore, Fisher indicated in the most recent presser that the offense will change dramatically BECAUSE of the continuity of the staff. He alluded twice in the last few days that the OLine is getting an overhaul. THAT will enable the offense to become more diverse and the weapons be deployed in more aggressive ways.

From Hammer, to Coach O, to the boys at Rams Addiction: from training camp on, the OLine was identified as the downfall of our season before it even began. To complain that Schotty was not creative or aggressive enough this year is to fail to learn the lessons of the genius Josh McDaniels provided us.

 

[thirteen28]

There's a problem. No one's asserting Schotty is perfect, but a number of people ARE constantly blaming him and bringing him up in threads that have nothing to do with him.

So, not a fair deal.

So in other words, you believe constructive, specific criticisms of Schotty should be verboten on here, no? Because that was part of the deal.

 

[Boffo97]

So in other words, you believe constructive, specific criticisms of Schotty should be verboten on here, no? Because that was part of the deal.

No, I believe that the Schotty criticism has been so overdone that it has all become white noise, much like Bradford criticism has elsewhere, and the legit criticism gets drowned out by the bashing.

 

[Angry Ram]

@Angry Ram Well, first off, I wasn't trying to insinuate that you weren't a knowledgeable fan. Not at all. I was responding to your previous post and that knowledgeable fans would have a reasonable basis for taking issue.

Anyway, we just totally disagree about Schotty. Which is fine. Gives us something to talk about.

I posit that in Schotty's offense at 100% with everyone healthy and executing perfectly... it's not even a top 10 offense. And it's not because of a lack of talent. It's because of the structural issues and playcalling.

Quick having a breakout year wasn't hard. He was breaking out from the "bust" label. That said, I'm super excited about him going forward presuming the shoulder heals.

Stedman Bailey should have had a stellar rookie year. In New York, he would have. This offense with the overly complicated sight adjustments, it just makes rookie WR contributions damned near impossible. For no damned reason.

GRob improved steadily, but that's a function of Coach Boo. I don't think that had one thing to do with the offense. If anything, I think the OL calls leave him exposed to choices he's missed as seen by all the free runners he's let fly at Hill.

Tre Mason is really a nice back and a nice addition to the stable. I'm glad they made him learn about blitz pickups before letting him back there. Zac Stacy's still the best at it. Frankly, I'm stoked about our young stable of RBs. I have confidence in all of them. Imagine how exciting it would be if they weren't run into Scott Wells' butt umpteen times a game for a loss...

And so many INTs and Pick-6s are due to the miscommunication between QB and WR. The WR clearly though they should be going one way and the QB saw it another. Which almost assuredly put it on the damned sight adjustment that SOMEONE missed or messed up. And before we get into the whole "ever offense has them", they don't to this degree. Some don't at all.

So while it's great that players improved this year, it doesn't preclude these same players from doing BETTER in another system.

I've likened Fisher (and by extension Schotty) to Mike Singletary. Building a great team and putting it all in place, but THIS plan just isn't a winner.

The NEXT guy with the keys will hopefully do a Harbaugh and take us to multiple Lombardis... 'cuz it's just not happening with Schotty... Schotty needed a top 3D, the best OL in football and the top rushing attack in football... and even then... he did it in the AFC East...

So all those players that have improving are doing so why? Because they can? Don't think Schotty puts them in a position to succeed?

IDK where you're getting that his offense makes rookie WRs "impossible" to succeed. Chris Givens had his best season as a rookie. Tavon and Sted made great contributions in 2013. Why would he have a stellar rookie year in NY? You think the QB would've made the difference there? Assuming you're talking about the Giants btw.

And you've lost me with that Mike Singletary comparison. Dude was crazy and didn't build anything.

And the point is? That they just need the personnel? The year before neither the Colts or Cardinals offenses were very good. Arians shows up and they are suddenly good. Either he knows how to coach players to run it, or he got the right players to run it. So far Schotty apparently did neither.

One of my biggest hangups is that second half adjustments are virtually non existent with Schottenheimer. Now I am well aware that some of that could be on Fisher. I have no idea how deep his hands are into the offense and what kind of Leash Schottenheimer has. For all I know Schottenheimer is struggling to keep Fisher happy and is being throttled by Fishers requirements.

The point is fans who clamor for change of the OC often times just do so because they are looking for someone to blame. The Steelers (I'm a fan of that team, if you didn't already know) had their fans hating their OC. Both Bruce Arians and Todd Haley. Yet the offense still clicked. Hell, Bruce Arians won the damn Super Bowl as the Steeler OC. And fans STILL wanted him gone. Insane. And yes, they do have better personnel. What would happen if Ben Roethlisberger was the Rams QB?

Well let's make a deal then - I won't insinuate that you believe Schotty is perfect if you don't insinuate those of us that criticize him are trying to blame him for everything.

Mackeyser laid out some critiques of Schotty that were thoughtful and constructive and went well beyond merely blaming him for everything. Instead, most of what Mackeyser blamed Schotty for were things under his control, e.g., the design of the offense. It's fine if you disagree with that, but the same, it's fine for some of us to take the other side if we believe differently. To do so is to point out where he can improve, because if he sticks around (and I think he will), I think he really needs to improve significantly.

I don't blame him for the injuries, I don't believe him for Scott Wells inability to consistently execute the snap and I don't blame him for the fact that Davin Joseph plays with a black hole level of suck. But if I think the design of his offense hinders its ability to produce or his playcalls on gameday could be better, I'm going to say it. The same thing applies to any other Rams coach.

And all those factors are the exact ones I'm talking about. Saying Schotty needs to be "CREATIVE MOAR NOW" doesn't take those into effect. The OL needs to block. The WR needs to catch it. The QB needs to not turn it over. It's so simple it's mind boggling.

Think about this, if we had say even a decent QB like IDK, Alex Smith, do you think he would unravel like Austin Davis did at Arizona? Or turn the ball over at San Diego? No. That is the difference between those teams and the Rams. Again, 8 years strong its ends up being the OC. Even X pointed out Mike Martz had an offense in the 20s. So, its not just as simple as clamoring for another OC or wantig him to be "more creative".

The fact is, our players are improving. They've been scoring points. And they've been leaving points on the field, which a lot can be directly attributed to player execution. A change of OC doesn't mean shit (and it hasn't for 8 years) in that case.

 

[thirteen28]

No, I believe that the Schotty criticism has been so overdone that it has all become white noise, much like Bradford criticism has elsewhere, and the legit criticism gets drowned out by the bashing.

We'll agree to disagree. I'm not seeing a whole lot of substance-less criticism of Schotty, the "Schotty sucks" or "fire Schotty" variety with no support behind it. I see critiques instead questioning his playcalling (with specific examples given), criticism of the complexity of his offense vs. results produced (fair, IMO anyway), criticism of his creativity with some players (also fair, and what brought him up on this thread), and so forth. And in most of those, I see an acknowledgement of the issues he's had to deal with in terms of injuries and talent deficiencies at QB and OL.

Every other coach and player on the Rams is open to similar criticisms, but for some reason Schotty seems to be off limits for the same. It doesn't seem to advance debate much, and it certainly won't advance the Rams much, if one particular assistant is singled out as being immune to even legitimate criticisms.

 

[Boffo97]

We'll agree to disagree. I'm not seeing a whole lot of substance-less criticism of Schotty, the "Schotty sucks" or "fire Schotty" variety with no support behind it. I see critiques instead questioning his playcalling (with specific examples given), criticism of the complexity of his offense vs. results produced (fair, IMO anyway), criticism of his creativity with some players (also fair, and what brought him up on this thread), and so forth. And in most of those, I see an acknowledgement of the issues he's had to deal with in terms of injuries and talent deficiencies at QB and OL.

Every other coach and player on the Rams is open to similar criticisms, but for some reason Schotty seems to be off limits for the same. It doesn't seem to advance debate much, and it certainly won't advance the Rams much, if one particular assistant is singled out as being immune to even legitimate criticisms.

It really isn't that Schotty is "off limits" (and that won't become any more true no matter how many times you say so and please stop playing the victim card) so much as the limit has been reached on him. That's why you see "Thanks, Schotty" becoming a meme.

If that makes you unhappy, blame the substanceless criticism of Schotty (which there is a lot more of than you acknowledge), the constant bringing him up to criticize him into threads that have nothing to do with him and the criticism which completely ignores the possibility that it's not him and that it's player execution in certain cases.

 

[thirteen28]

And all those factors are the exact ones I'm talking about. Saying Schotty needs to be "CREATIVE MOAR NOW" doesn't take those into effect. The OL needs to block. The WR needs to catch it. The QB needs to not turn it over. It's so simple it's mind boggling.

Think about this, if we had say even a decent QB like IDK, Alex Smith, do you think he would unravel like Austin Davis did at Arizona? Or turn the ball over at San Diego? No. That is the difference between those teams and the Rams. Again, 8 years strong its ends up being the OC. Even X pointed out Mike Martz had an offense in the 20s. So, its not just as simple as clamoring for another OC or wantig him to be "more creative".

The fact is, our players are improving. They've been scoring points. And they've been leaving points on the field, which a lot can be directly attributed to player execution. A change of OC doesn't mean crap (and it hasn't for 8 years) in that case.

First of all, specific suggestions of how he can be creative, ones that acknowledge the injuries, have been given upthread.

The point in your second paragraph is a strawman, nobody is blaming Schotty for the fact that Austin Davis melted down under pressure too many times, or some of Hill's more baffling INT's. I believe the prevailing response there has been "we need a better QB."

On the other hand, people will question (and certainly should be able to on this board) as to whether Schotty exhibited good judgment on a 2nd and goal from the four yard line whether going to an empty backfield set and telegraphing a passing play that eventually resulted in an INT and a loss. The INT is on Hill, but the playcall is clearly on Schotty. If a critique like that is overblown, perhaps criticism of Schotty should be added to "potential move to LA" as forbidden topics on this board.

 

[thirteen28]

It really isn't that Schotty is "off limits" (and that won't become any more true no matter how many times you say so and please stop playing the victim card) so much as the limit has been reached on him. That's why you see "Thanks, Schotty" becoming a meme.

If that makes you unhappy, blame the substanceless criticism of Schotty (which there is a lot more of than you acknowledge), the constant bringing him up to criticize him into threads that have nothing to do with him and the criticism which completely ignores the possibility that it's not him and that it's player execution in certain cases.

Then when you see it, call out the substance-less criticism as not adding anything to the discussion. No problem there. But if someone like Mackeyser brings up points that actually have substance and support, responding with "stop blaming the OC" or saying there is a limit on critiquing him is just as bad as saying "Schotty sucks".

 

[fearsomefour]

"Furthermore, Fisher indicated in the most recent presser that the offense will change dramatically BECAUSE of the continuity of the staff. He alluded twice in the last few days that the OLine is getting an overhaul. THAT will enable the offense to become more diverse and the weapons be deployed in more aggressive ways.

From Hammer, to Coach O, to the boys at Rams Addiction: from training camp on, the OLine was identified as the downfall of our season before it even began. To complain that Schotty was not creative or aggressive enough this year is to fail to learn the lessons of the genius Josh McDaniels provided us."

Nice post Leoram.
Its a good point about the limitations of the line really keeping the handcuffs on the offense. It makes complete sense. Being aggressive for the sake of being aggressive would have likely led to more disastrous performances. A QB like Hill, with limitations, can only be asked to do so much. Overall I think he performed well enough for what he is, a good back up. The reality is, of course, a well functioning O is the sum of its parts. I am looking forward to see what kind of approach the team takes this offseason.

 

[Boffo97]

Then when you see it, call out the substance-less criticism as not adding anything to the discussion. No problem there. But if someone like Mackeyser brings up points that actually have substance and support, responding with "stop blaming the OC" or saying there is a limit on critiquing him is just as bad as saying "Schotty sucks".

As I said, the problem is that there's been so much substanceless critique of Schotty that it all kind of blurs together. It's just like how elsewhere there's been a lot of mostly substanceless critique of Bradford and the critique with substance (and there's critique with substance for every player and coach on this team) gets drowned out. And I have seen people elsewhere try playing the exact same "Oh, I guess we're not allowed to talk about Bradford!" card. And it's just as silly then. In each case, critiquing them certainly HAS been allowed. What's being criticized is the deluge of critique that at least borders at times on outright bashing.

For me, in the end, I'm a Rams fan. Schotty is a member of the Rams. That might change in the foreseeable future, and it might not. Everyone has a right to dislike him and criticize him. But past a certain point, it starts becoming really irritating. I'm not the one who responded to Mackeyser's thoughtful post with "stop blaming the OC" (although it needs to be pointed out that that's just an excerpt, not the whole reply). But I'm thinking it's less in reply to him and more to the overabundance of criticism. Maybe it might help if some who felt the way you do were the ones shooting down the substanceless stuff. After all, it's YOUR point that it's hurting.

At times, it certainly makes me want to shout "Okay! You don't like Schotty! We get it! Can we move on please?!" If you still can't see the difference between that and no criticism of Schotty being allowed at all, I'm not sure what else I can say about it.

 

[Angry Ram]

First of all, specific suggestions of how he can be creative, ones that acknowledge the injuries, have been given upthread.

The point in your second paragraph is a strawman, nobody is blaming Schotty for the fact that Austin Davis melted down under pressure too many times, or some of Hill's more baffling INT's. I believe the prevailing response there has been "we need a better QB."

On the other hand, people will question (and certainly should be able to on this board) as to whether Schotty exhibited good judgment on a 2nd and goal from the four yard line whether going to an empty backfield set and telegraphing a passing play that eventually resulted in an INT and a loss. The INT is on Hill, but the playcall is clearly on Schotty. If a critique like that is overblown, perhaps criticism of Schotty should be added to "potential move to LA" as forbidden topics on this board.

It's also been shown numerous times that he has made this offense succeed on the field.

And how the hell is it strawman? I'm showing its NOT on Schotty and a change in OC will NOT magically make things better.

As far as the SD play, I have a hard time believing if they ran up the middle and got stuffed people would've called it a good playcall. It most likely been more along the lines "Oh Schotty's an idiot why run it up the middle, everyone knows its gonna be a run." Or if they passed and had it incomplete or had taken a sack.

Or the run/pass could've led to a score. Shit happens. And again, a change in OC won't magically stop shit from happening.

 

[Boffo97]

As far as the SD play, I have a hard time believing if they ran up the middle and got stuffed people would've called it a good playcall. It most likely been more along the lines "Oh Schotty's an idiot why run it up the middle, everyone knows its gonna be a run." Or if they passed and had it incomplete or had taken a sack.

Or the run/pass could've led to a score. crap happens. And again, a change in OC won't magically stop crap from happening.

Plus, they ran a very similar play in a very similar situation to the San Diego play vs. Dallas. No one criticized Schotty then... but of course, no one praised him either.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

So all those players that have improving are doing so why? Because they can? Don't think Schotty puts them in a position to succeed?

IDK where you're getting that his offense makes rookie WRs "impossible" to succeed. Chris Givens had his best season as a rookie. Tavon and Sted made great contributions in 2013. Why would he have a stellar rookie year in NY? You think the QB would've made the difference there? Assuming you're talking about the Giants btw.

And you've lost me with that Mike Singletary comparison. Dude was crazy and didn't build anything.



The point is fans who clamor for change of the OC often times just do so because they are looking for someone to blame. The Steelers (I'm a fan of that team, if you didn't already know) had their fans hating their OC. Both Bruce Arians and Todd Haley. Yet the offense still clicked. Hell, Bruce Arians won the damn Super Bowl as the Steeler OC. And fans STILL wanted him gone. Insane. And yes, they do have better personnel. What would happen if Ben Roethlisberger was the Rams QB?



And all those factors are the exact ones I'm talking about. Saying Schotty needs to be "CREATIVE MOAR NOW" doesn't take those into effect. The OL needs to block. The WR needs to catch it. The QB needs to not turn it over. It's so simple it's mind boggling.

Think about this, if we had say even a decent QB like IDK, Alex Smith, do you think he would unravel like Austin Davis did at Arizona? Or turn the ball over at San Diego? No. That is the difference between those teams and the Rams. Again, 8 years strong its ends up being the OC. Even X pointed out Mike Martz had an offense in the 20s. So, its not just as simple as clamoring for another OC or wantig him to be "more creative".

The fact is, our players are improving. They've been scoring points. And they've been leaving points on the field, which a lot can be directly attributed to player execution. A change of OC doesn't mean crap (and it hasn't for 8 years) in that case.

Has Schottenheimer ever had success like Arians at Pittsburgh? Or like Haley did in the past? No.

Comparing random crazy overzealous fans to somewhat knowledgable posters on this forum is generalizing and is comparing apples to oranges. Pittsburgh fans were dumb for wanting to get rid of Arians. I thought that then. But why does that equate to me not being happy with Schottenheimer? Is Schott getting the most from his players? Is his backup QB as prepared as the Patriots backups are whenever called upon? Is he good at making adjustments to defenses during the game? I'd say no to all of the above.

Schottenheimer in no way has proven to be equal to Arians or Haley.

 

[jrry32]

Has Schottenheimer ever had success like Arians at Pittsburgh? Or like Haley did in the past? No.

Comparing random crazy overzealous fans to somewhat knowledgable posters on this forum is generalizing and is comparing apples to oranges. Pittsburgh fans were dumb for wanting to get rid of Arians. I thought that then. But why does that equate to me not being happy with Schottenheimer? Is Schott getting the most from his players? Is his backup QB as prepared as the Patriots backups are whenever called upon? Is he good at making adjustments to defenses during the game? I'd say no to all of the above.

Schottenheimer in no way has proven to be equal to Arians or Haley.

When has Schottenheimer ever been in the sort of situation that Arians had? Arians had Ben Roethlisberger then he had Andrew Luck.

Now that he's in Arizona, his offense actually finished with a worse ranking than ours.

Might Schottenheimer have had success if he had Ben Roethlisberger? I think so. The guy's offense was pretty damn great with Favre...until Favre got injured and went from playing like Drew Brees to playing like Keith Null.

 

[Mackeyser]

Well...

At least we know what the "lightning rod" topic of the off-season's gonna be...

LOL

 

[Boffo97]

Well...

At least we know what the "lightning rod" topic of the off-season's gonna be...

LOL

This and whether we should draft (or trade up for) Winston.

 

[WillasDad]

This is the look I had when Fisher in his presser said no coaching changes expected for the coming year.

 

[Angry Ram]

Has Schottenheimer ever had success like Arians at Pittsburgh? Or like Haley did in the past? No.

Comparing random crazy overzealous fans to somewhat knowledgable posters on this forum is generalizing and is comparing apples to oranges. Pittsburgh fans were dumb for wanting to get rid of Arians. I thought that then. But why does that equate to me not being happy with Schottenheimer? Is Schott getting the most from his players? Is his backup QB as prepared as the Patriots backups are whenever called upon? Is he good at making adjustments to defenses during the game? I'd say no to all of the above.

Schottenheimer in no way has proven to be equal to Arians or Haley.

No, it isn't apples and orange. It's the football fan mentality of finding someone to blame after losses which almost always involves the OC. Or making him a problem when he isn't.

I pointed out production of the young skill position players despite inconsistencies at the OL and QB positions. I've mentioned they've scored points, but left points on the board. That is attributed to player execution more than the OC.

Bottom line for me is this: I don't think changing the OC will magically change anything unless there is more consistency on the field. It hasn't for over 8 years. I don't think Schotty is an issue, they've scored points before when all the healthy personnel was on the field. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case for the majority of the games b/c of injury to QBs and OL (and coupled with young players developing).

 

[jap]

There's a problem. No one's asserting Schotty is perfect, but a number of people ARE constantly blaming him and bringing him up in threads that have nothing to do with him.

So, not a fair deal.

Most sports fans are ridiculously simplistic in their thinking. You invariably see them putting the entire blame or the brunt of the blame on one player (usually the QB) or one coach rather than truly breaking things down analytically. Then there is also the fact we often do not know how a play was designed to work. For example, the QB throws to a spot where no receiver exists: did the QB or a receiver botch the assignment?

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

No, it isn't apples and orange. It's the football fan mentality of finding someone to blame after losses which almost always involves the OC. Or making him a problem when he isn't.

I pointed out production of the young skill position players despite inconsistencies at the OL and QB positions. I've mentioned they've scored points, but left points on the board. That is attributed to player execution more than the OC.

Bottom line for me is this: I don't think changing the OC will magically change anything unless there is more consistency on the field. It hasn't for over 8 years. I don't think Schotty is an issue, they've scored points before when all the healthy personnel was on the field. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case for the majority of the games b/c of injury to QBs and OL (and coupled with young players developing).

I understand the personnel is nt up to par with ideal but good OCs overcome that to a degree. Mike Martz made safeties IMO great receivers, he made backup QBs into stat leaders. Schott seems to dislike making adjustments that stray fom his scripted plan. Maybe the guy I want isn't out there, but the Rams should be looking IMO.

And what I was trying to say is that your right that many fans blame the OC unjustly. However that does not mean they are never right.