Two seasons of Tavon Austin

[thirteen28]

Hang on there. I never said that. I said there are more pressing issues. Everyone can use improvement.

Well let's make a deal then - I won't insinuate that you believe Schotty is perfect if you don't insinuate those of us that criticize him are trying to blame him for everything.

Mackeyser laid out some critiques of Schotty that were thoughtful and constructive and went well beyond merely blaming him for everything. Instead, most of what Mackeyser blamed Schotty for were things under his control, e.g., the design of the offense. It's fine if you disagree with that, but the same, it's fine for some of us to take the other side if we believe differently. To do so is to point out where he can improve, because if he sticks around (and I think he will), I think he really needs to improve significantly.

I don't blame him for the injuries, I don't believe him for Scott Wells inability to consistently execute the snap and I don't blame him for the fact that Davin Joseph plays with a black hole level of suck. But if I think the design of his offense hinders its ability to produce or his playcalls on gameday could be better, I'm going to say it. The same thing applies to any other Rams coach.

 

[CoachO]

To be fair though does Tavon ever get the ball when you didn't expect it? How many players out there can make things happen when everyone knows when he's getting the ball? Keep in mind he is not getting the ball out in open spaces where he excels. He's getting the ball 5-7 yards behind the line on reverses and handoffs. The rare passes are never on the run or deep down the field. They are always short routes and most of the time he has to come to a stop.

That has very little to do with the play call and EVERYTHING to do with the coverage that teams play vs. the Rams. In the few instances where teams have actually played man to man when Austin is on the field, (Indianapolis last year), he can exploit them with the crossing routes and even get behind MAN coverage on occasion.

The problem is, the vast majority of the time, teams play zone and force him to "settle in" the holes of the zone which is why he is coming to a complete stop. The thing is, Austin is extremely quick, when MOVING, but doesn't have the lateral change of direction (as in stop and start) that someone like Amendola or even TJ Moe possesses. How often did Amendola run the "arrow" route creating separation in tight spaces? Austin just isn't capable of doing that. Be it technique, or just not far enough along in his route running.

The other option vs. zone coverage is running the deep dig route. But his lack of size make that a less than desirable choice with a 5'8 WR. Combine that with the less than dominant running game, the play action passing game which could create opportunities to get behind LB's and exploit seam routes or "skinny posts" just aren't there.

Teams figured out very quickly that the one thing the Rams could do is exploit straight man coverage. So they face zone coverage most of the time. At the very least, they get combination coverages that include over the top help. So thinking its as simple as just "sending him long" isn't going to work either.

And for those who want to try to make a comparison to Brandin Cooks, how do you think he benefits from having the likes of Jimmy Graham drawing most of the coverage and attention from defenses? Add Marques Colston..... its an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[-X-]

There was just so much here, Mac, that I kind of skipped over it with the intent to come back to it later. It's later now, so I'll counter-point some of this. And I'll preface this by saying if anyone denotes what they think is excessive sarcasm, it's okay. Mac and I go back a ways and he knows I'm an asshole. lol.

Perhaps it's because knowledgeable fans aren't just kneejerking about the scoreboard, but are looking beyond that into the details.

There certainly is no shortage of those kinds of fans, but they're few and far between here.

This draft saw FOUR rookie Wide Receivers contribute significantly to their teams. That would NEVER happen in a Schotty offense. Just...NEVER... because rather than adjust to the talent, Schotty with minor variations runs *his* offense.

Just a minute there, Professor. You can't possibly know that. For one, the Jets never drafted a rookie receiver high in the draft while Schotty was there. In fact, the highest they drafted one was Jeremy Kerley in the 5th round 3 years ago. THE Jeremy Kerley you ask? Yeah, that one. Here, since 2012, he's had who as his rookie receivers who should be lighting the league aflame? Brick Quick? Chris Givens? Tavon Austin? Stedman Bailey? Is it your contention, sir, that any other coordinator on any other team would have made these particular guys into significant contributors right off the bat? I'd say Schotty put Givens in the right places when Bradford was playing, and he was a 4th rounder. Then, after that, he (Schotty) started playing musical quarterbacks. Tavon didn't do well his rookie year and Schotty didn't put this completely unpolished receiver in good positions with his quarterbacks? Tavon wasn't going to post 1000+ yards anywhere except for maybe with Manning or Brady. That's a QB hurdle that needs to be overcome. Not a coordinator obstacle.

Thus, when receivers GET it and he has a QB and an OL and a RB...then his offense works. However, if any of that breaks... it all falls apart and DCs KNOW THAT. And as a fan, that's frustrating.

Quit your yellin'. THEN, LOOK AT THE CONTEXT! <ahem. sorry> When receivers get it (because they came from programs where the words studious and playbook were never in the same sentence), then they start to perform. If you take any team and remove one of the more important positions on the team, the offense tends to break. When you remove 5 of them (QB, LT, RG C [remember your stance on Wells], WR), then it breaks even more. It's FRA-GEE-LEE like that all across the league. And all DCs should know that. But not all of them do. The Raiders didn't. The Redskins didn't. Seattle didn't. San Francisco didn't. Dallas didn't. Philly didn't. NY didn't. Denver didn't. Because we scored on all of those fools. Enough times to win. Schotty isn't the reason why we didn't win some of those either. Fact.

His offense isn't even like Martz's offense that can score a ton, but is fragile as a timing offense. No... it's worse because as an OFFENSE (and I'd say this to any OC trying to run this offense), it's a grinding, ball control offense that's JUST AS FRAGILE.

It can't be a grinding, ball control offense if that's not what it is. And that's not what it is if (a) people are critical of him not running the ball enough, (b) the Rams are 10th in the league in big plays, and (c) they have 515 pass attempts and 395 rushing attempts.

It's ridiculous. Part of the attraction of grinding, ball control offenses are that they aren't fragile. So, Schotty's offense is the worst of both worlds in that it is low scoring AND fragile. It only becomes a middling offense when it has the talent of a top tier offense. Which, on its face is ridiculous. Why design an NFL offense that gets middling results with top shelf talent AND disintegrates if only one piece breaks? Worse, this same offense's production drops precipitously when the talent level drops at any key position even a little bit.

See above about the grinding balls and control. Or offensive ball grinding. Whatever you said. Schotty's offense does not become "middling" if they're hanging 30 and 40 burgers on teams (and several 20+ burgers, which are low calorie). And it has never had what one would consider the talent of a top-tier offense when the QB is constantly not part of the equation, and the rest of the formula includes HIGHLY developmental receivers and rookie running backs.

So, is this about Schotty as a person? Not really. It's about the offense he runs. Okay....some of it is Schotty..

.
Wut?

1) It doesn't allow rookies to contribute especially WRs. Odell Beckham (love him or hate him, his talent is undeniable) wouldn't have done lick in this offense and that's just insane. While this meshes with Fisher's attitudes about rookies meshing with the system versus the system adapting to personnel, the NFL has long since evolved beyond that.

Objection. Speculation. Calls for facts not in evidence. Would Odell Beckham have done "a lick" in this offense if that two-time Super Bowl winning QB came with him? As for the league evolving beyond Fisher's attitudes about rookies, wouldn't your problem then be with Fisher and not with Schotty? Brian Schottenheimer is probably the most pragmatic offensive coordinator this team has seen in quite some time, and here you're telling me he doesn't adapt? Boo-hoolllll-sheyit. When this team lost Jackson and Daryl Richardson was the only RB with any NFL experience, what did he do? He came out with a short passing game predicated on moving the ball in short increments to supplement the lack of a run game. Then when THAT was proven to be ineffective due to the O-line's inability to protect the QB, what did he do? He re-tooled the offense to make the run game work and they developed Stacy and Cunningham quickly. That's adjusting to the personnel, my friend. Text book.

2) The system is brittle. Any personnel change drastically and negatively affects the offensive output.

No it isn't, and no it doesn't. This offense (which we've established is young and full of underachiving linemen minus their starting QB) is brittle because it's an NFL truism that you can't lose that kind of personnel and still be effective. With VERY rare exceptions can you maintain any level of production like that. Philly couldn't sustain. Arizona couldn't sustain. We couldn't sustain. Green Bay last year couldn't sustain. You NEED to have your best players in any offense if you want to be successful. So sayeth Jim Fassel. So sayeth the flock.

3) The playcalling is just bad. When establishing the run, even when committing to establishing the interior run, there are LOTS of choices to doing that... constantly running into the A or B gap on the right side when we have Wells and Joseph over there is just really... bad. How many stuffs and TFL does it take (and thereby building up the Defense's confidence) in order to run OTHER interior run plays? There are runs to the left, Counter-tre's, draws... all sorts of options that take into account the issues that Wells and Joseph present. But Schotty calls run plays to the right like he's got All-pro C and ROG who will win that battle every time.

The playcalling is not bad. The playcalling is suspect in your eyes, only after the execution fails to deliver the desired results based on the reasoning I just gave you throughout this post. That's my view on it. When a few plays failed to produce during one game (through the right interior side), but didn't fail to produce in others, how exactly is that on coaching? I'd say it was if that's all they did throughout a game and it failed every single time they did it, but that wasn't the case. When the Rams shut down RB after RB this year, was the offensive coordinator on the other side an idiot for trying to get it going anyway? Or maybe we played some top shelf defenses who stop runs even if Vince Lombardi was our OC.

I'm not saying that Schotty's system never works. It does. But it requires everything to line up.

Not really. It just needs a decent QB.

And I'm sorry... I don't want the Moon to be in the Seventh House and Jupiter to align with Mars before we have an offense that can deal with injuries...ya know...in the NFL....where injuries happen to every team.

I never once thought I would hear you say those words. "Injuries happen to every team." You are so far removed from being a cliche'.
I R Disappoint.

 

[Bluesy]

Yeah, very tough to see what he has (or hasn't) done when you see other players like Beckam Jr., Mike Evans, Kelvin Benjamin, Alshon Jeffery etc. granted they're from a different draft class but it's still disappointing.

On another note, I do find it odd that we're not giving him many go routes to get him down the field. Not near as many as Britt/Quick were getting. Maybe it's just cause they had more ability to beat the press coverage and jump up to make a play.

 

[jrry32]

Yeah, very tough to see what he has (or hasn't) done when you see other players like Beckam Jr., Mike Evans, Kelvin Benjamin, Alshon Jeffery etc. granted they're from a different draft class but it's still disappointing.

Players develop at their own pace. Maybe Austin never develops but draft picks require patience. That's why you don't draft to plug immediate needs. Because most players take 2-3 years to develop...if not more.

With Austin being the size he is and coming from the offense he was in, his development was going to take time. He doesn't have the size to win even when he doesn't separate. Which means that his route running will be the key to his success...and he's coming from a college offense that didn't use a NFL route tree.

I'm hopeful we'll start to see what Austin can become next year...especially if we have a legitimate QB.

 

[Mackeyser]

Well, we've got the Schotty stuff going on in like three threads...LOL.

I put part of what I was thinking...somewhere.

I don't think WRs can succeed in his offense in part because of the overly-complicated sight adjustments that have cost this team points via turnovers and pick-6s. All Rookies take time to adjust. The NY Giant system doesn't require the same sight adjustments (Victor Cruz talked about it, actually, that while having his rookie year off helped, they system helps, too. He can play fast in it). The WRs in NY (Jets) were all relieved when Schotty left because of those sight adjustments. So, that's a large part of why I'm saying that rookie WRs can't succeed here.

Plus, Tavon in Pittsburgh, Seattle, NE, NO or a host of other places would have lit the league up as a rookie. Same with Bailey. Granted, part of that is having an established QB. I'll grant that. But part of the problem here is that the barrier to success for rookies at the WR position is higher than it needs to be. There's no "ramp". Rookies get the whole book and they have to adapt to the book. Well, in a "produce now" league, what happened to bringing guys along, so that they can produce NOW since the NFL is an OJT league?

As for our O... even with Bradford playing lights out and everyone healthy... I still don't think we're above 26 pts a game. That would be a really big jump for us, but we're not close. We're at 18 and change now. Now, I suppose 26 would be a top 10 offense, but I can't see us getting there. That'd be a massive improvement playing against, yet again, one of the toughest schedules in the NFL. Against this schedule, a massive improvement might be to get to 10 wins and 22 pts a game.

I dunno. Maybe some folks here see what I don't see.

Which is maddening because I've seen the flashes. I know what's possible in an abstract fashion. But once people, weather, physics and chaos theory are applied... I just don't see it. At all. Which, for someone who prefers to be on the Pollyanna side of things isn't as fun as I'd like it to be.

 

[jrry32]

The problem is, the vast majority of the time, teams play zone and force him to "settle in" the holes of the zone which is why he is coming to a complete stop. The thing is, Austin is extremely quick, when MOVING, but doesn't have the lateral change of direction (as in stop and start) that someone like Amendola or even TJ Moe possesses. How often did Amendola run the "arrow" route creating separation in tight spaces? Austin just isn't capable of doing that. Be it technique, or just not far enough along in his route running.

Austin definitely has the stop and start ability as well as a lateral change of direction. But you're right, he's not far along with his technique yet.

But one big issue with the arrow route is that you have to have the throwing lane and the QB to get it over the DL with a WR of Austin's height. I'd feel comfortable with Sam. Hill is a maybe. Davis could not do it imo.

I'll tell you, I said it before and I'll say it again, Austin really needs to work with a Isaac Bruce or Marvin Harrison or someone like that this off-season. Hell, get together with Antonio Brown. Because if Austin learned how to use the subtle fakes and changes of speed in his routes that those guys used, he'd be deadly with how quick he is. If Austin actually learned how to setup and manipulate defenders, there's not a guy in the NFL that can cut with him.

But he's just not at that level of route running yet. I really want to see him get there. You watch Antonio Brown spend the entire game playing with defenders and keeping them constantly guessing and you think of what Austin could do if he learned how to do that...it's scary.

So yea, Austin needs to spend this entire off-season mastering his route running. If he does, the guy will wreak havoc. Especially with a legitimate starting QB. But until his route running gets to the requisite level, he just won't be a consistent playmaker for us.

 

[jrry32]

Plus, Tavon in Pittsburgh, Seattle, NE, NO or a host of other places would have lit the league up as a rookie. Same with Bailey. Granted, part of that is having an established QB. I'll grant that. But part of the problem here is that the barrier to success for rookies at the WR position is higher than it needs to be. There's no "ramp". Rookies get the whole book and they have to adapt to the book. Well, in a "produce now" league, what happened to bringing guys along, so that they can produce NOW since the NFL is an OJT league?

NE isn't the right example. They're well known for having an extremely complicated system for WRs. And if you don't get it right, they don't play you.

 

[-X-]

I do find it odd that we're not giving him many go routes to get him down the field. Not near as many as Britt/Quick were getting. Maybe it's just cause they had more ability to beat the press coverage and jump up to make a play.

Do you not recognize the sound of a hammer hitting a nail square on the head?

Because I just heard it.

 

[jrry32]

Do you not recognize the sound of a hammer hitting a nail square on the head?

Because I just heard it.

Yea, definitely the latter. Tavon's actually pretty good against press. The thing about his lack of size is that it gives defenders a very small strike zone on a very quick/fast WR and taller CBs will have to extend more to get into his body. It makes him a difficult guy to jam. But the being able to go up and get it is a big part of it.

Tavon is the type of WR that you need a QB who can hit in stride for...either that or you need a lot of space in the middle of the field to allow him to track and run under the ball. He's not going to win 50/50 balls.

 

[-X-]

Rookies get the whole book and they have to adapt to the book.

That's not true either. Quick only had a sub-set of the playbook and was only used on certain plays because he didn't understand all of it (or even much of it). Same thing with Tavon who said, and I quote, "I didn't really know what was going on. Everything looked like Spanish and sounded like Spanish to me." So what did Schotty do? He didn't force-feed him the playbook, he designed plays that utilized his skill set and what he was capable of understanding and executing. Like this.

Do you remember EVER seeing that play run by any team prior to Schotty dialing it up against Chicago last year?
Ever? Because I never have. Not once, in my 35 years of football watching, have I seen that play before.

Of course, he lacks creativity, so maybe someone else drew it up. Who knows.

And yes, they did draw it up again after that game. It failed, because they started keying on him a lot more after Indy/Chicago.

 

[BatteringRambo]

Did they? Because when they lost Palmer, they went 5-5. And they were lucky to get some of those wins.
Meanwhile, we didn't even *get* Bradford, and we're expected to do as well?

Week 2 at Giants man did the Sparrows ever luck the fuck out thete or he'll week 1 at home against the Chargers. The 4th qtr of both games got their momentum swiping hard. Without that hmmmm...

 

[-X-]

Yea, definitely the latter. Tavon's actually pretty good against press. The thing about his lack of size is that it gives defenders a very small strike zone on a very quick/fast WR and taller CBs will have to extend more to get into his body. It makes him a difficult guy to jam. But the being able to go up and get it is a big part of it.

Tavon is the type of WR that you need a QB who can hit in stride for...either that or you need a lot of space in the middle of the field to allow him to track and run under the ball. He's not going to win 50/50 balls.

Which is also why he's in motion quite a bit more than any other receiver. Can't jam a moving target. There's also the idea (fact?) that if he's not being jammed, he's got to eat a ton of cushion up before he can get behind a defender. And by the time that happens, which of our QBs from last year had the arm to hit him in full gate after that cushion was gone and he started to separate?

 

[Boffo97]

Well let's make a deal then - I won't insinuate that you believe Schotty is perfect if you don't insinuate those of us that criticize him are trying to blame him for everything.

There's a problem. No one's asserting Schotty is perfect, but a number of people ARE constantly blaming him and bringing him up in threads that have nothing to do with him.

So, not a fair deal.

 

[Mackeyser]

Yea, definitely the latter. Tavon's actually pretty good against press. The thing about his lack of size is that it gives defenders a very small strike zone on a very quick/fast WR and taller CBs will have to extend more to get into his body. It makes him a difficult guy to jam. But the being able to go up and get it is a big part of it.

Tavon is the type of WR that you need a QB who can hit in stride for...either that or you need a lot of space in the middle of the field to allow him to track and run under the ball. He's not going to win 50/50 balls.

Well, whatever the reason, Tavon's not being thrown to in stride. He's getting far too many passes where he's sitting down in a zone. That's NOT the way to best utilize him.

I keep wondering... where are the slant routes in this offense? You can't tell me with how often we're blitzed that we can't play action and hit a slant when they see blitz. THAT play was there all year.

Oh, and X, I don't mean to shout... I just use it to put the emPHAsis on the right syLLABle. Otherwise, it just looks like sterile text to me...

As to your point @-X- about cushion for Tavon... I dunno that arm was the problem for Hill who overthrew plenty of guys when he had the time. The problem more often than not was that there was so much pressure, especially up the middle that neither QB had time or space to really step into their throws. I'd put most of our deep issues on the OL, not the QB.

Frankly, I love what the Eagles do with their Speedy WR and Washington does with DeSean Jackson. Neither are much bigger and they hit them in stride. When you hit Tavon Austin at full speed, the defense will be in panic mode to catch him...just like they are when those other guys catch in at full speed. A simple slant can be a TD if one guy overpursues or misses or if the Safety bit on the play action or bit on the deep route.

I just don't get why we don't use those routes. If not with Tavon, with Bailey or Givens. We've got the speed and guys who can catch and GO.

Maybe I'm just missing something...because I see that route there at least 5+ times a game... and it just makes me grit my teeth so hard...

 

[-X-]

Maybe I'm just missing something...because I see that route there at least 5+ times a game... and it just makes me grit my teeth so hard...

I'll show you what you're missing when I get the motivation to put together a coaches film video of the times receivers outran the QB's arm. Or the times that the receivers broke free on a 9 and nobody threw them the ball. Just from memory I can find a few, but I want to go through all 16 games. I remember being at the Miami preseason game when Austin was the QB, and I was sitting at the 50 and saw Stedman Bailey free - all by himself - 40 yards down the field and Davis never saw him. I remember because I yelled out, "What the fuck, over?!" and my wife gave me the stink-eye for yelling obscenities in public like that.

It was very uncouth of me (as far as she knows).

 

[CoachO]

Well, whatever the reason, Tavon's not being thrown to in stride. He's getting far too many passes where he's sitting down in a zone. That's NOT the way to best utilize him.

I keep wondering... where are the slant routes in this offense? You can't tell me with how often we're blitzed that we can't play action and hit a slant when they see blitz. THAT play was there all year.

Oh, and X, I don't mean to shout... I just use it to put the emPHAsis on the right syLLABle. Otherwise, it just looks like sterile text to me...

As to your point @-X- about cushion for Tavon... I dunno that arm was the problem for Hill who overthrew plenty of guys when he had the time. The problem more often than not was that there was so much pressure, especially up the middle that neither QB had time or space to really step into their throws. I'd put most of our deep issues on the OL, not the QB.

Frankly, I love what the Eagles do with their Speedy WR and Washington does with DeSean Jackson. Neither are much bigger and they hit them in stride. When you hit Tavon Austin at full speed, the defense will be in panic mode to catch him...just like they are when those other guys catch in at full speed. A simple slant can be a TD if one guy overpursues or misses or if the Safety bit on the play action or bit on the deep route.

I just don't get why we don't use those routes. If not with Tavon, with Bailey or Givens. We've got the speed and guys who can catch and GO.

Maybe I'm just missing something...because I see that route there at least 5+ times a game... and it just makes me grit my teeth so hard...

You must not have been watching the past 6 weeks. Ever since Hill came back they have thrown 2 or 3 slants to Britt every week.

As far as Austin or Givens.... When is the last time you've seen Chris make a reception on any contested ball? They routinely threw the slant to him LAST year and they were an adventure. He wants no part of it. Especially if CBs were closing on him. He has the worst case of "alligator" arms in the NFL.

 

[jrry32]

Well, whatever the reason, Tavon's not being thrown to in stride. He's getting far too many passes where he's sitting down in a zone. That's NOT the way to best utilize him.

I keep wondering... where are the slant routes in this offense? You can't tell me with how often we're blitzed that we can't play action and hit a slant when they see blitz. THAT play was there all year.

Oh, and X, I don't mean to shout... I just use it to put the emPHAsis on the right syLLABle. Otherwise, it just looks like sterile text to me...

As to your point @-X- about cushion for Tavon... I dunno that arm was the problem for Hill who overthrew plenty of guys when he had the time. The problem more often than not was that there was so much pressure, especially up the middle that neither QB had time or space to really step into their throws. I'd put most of our deep issues on the OL, not the QB.

Frankly, I love what the Eagles do with their Speedy WR and Washington does with DeSean Jackson. Neither are much bigger and they hit them in stride. When you hit Tavon Austin at full speed, the defense will be in panic mode to catch him...just like they are when those other guys catch in at full speed. A simple slant can be a TD if one guy overpursues or misses or if the Safety bit on the play action or bit on the deep route.

I just don't get why we don't use those routes. If not with Tavon, with Bailey or Givens. We've got the speed and guys who can catch and GO.

Maybe I'm just missing something...because I see that route there at least 5+ times a game... and it just makes me grit my teeth so hard...

My assumption is that they don't use Austin on slants because he doesn't have the frame to shield out the CB.

But I'd love to see him get a quick slant against teams playing off coverage.

Issue is that Tavon has to sit down against zone coverage and we saw a lot of zone coverage this year.

 

[Mackeyser]

I hear all of you responding to me.

I did say something specific, though. A slant against the blitz. Usually they have to go man on that because you don't have enough in coverage to maintain zone.

In such a situation where the QB needs to hit his hot read, the OC has two options... go big WR for ability to shield the DB or go smaller WR for ability to separate. Part of the ability to separate is really knowing where you're going so there's no thinking about it. We've all seen Austin and Bailey get into and out of breaks wicked fast. So that's not the issue.

It may be the design of the slant i.e. running it from a bunch set so that the DB is shielded (Lord knows how often we see that run against us...) as opposed to simply running the slant from the slot.

I just see other offenses FINDING ways to get the ball to their playmakers at speed. We NEED to. Frankly, I don't care how they do it. I'd like the full extent of my responsibilities to worry about how vigorously I'm cheering for the many breakaway TDs because I'm getting dizzy...

 

[Memento]

In my opinion, Tavon just needs to concentrate on route running all offseason. Like people have said in this thread, he needs to sit down with Bruce and learn from him because the Reverend was the GOAT when it came to selling his routes.

In my opinion, he'll be just fine. A third season is just what Austin (and Bailey, for that matter) need. Just like with Quick. Wide receivers take time to groom.