Thailand Cave Rescue

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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/07/06/cave-rescues-q-how-thai-situation-happened/764227002/

Thailand cave rescue: Why can't they drill from above, other questions you want answered

Time is running out for the 12 boys and their soccer coach trapped in a cave. Rescuers are poised to help, but a safe exit is more precarious than it may seem.USA TODAY

The 12 boys and their coach who are trapped in an underground cave in Thailand have riveted attention on efforts to rescue them. Authorities describe the situation as a race against time to avoid death.

As cave experts from around the world converge on Tham Luang Nang Non cave, the inevitable monsoon rains of northern Thailand have made the rescue efforts increasingly grim. A former Thai navy seal diver died during the rescue effort Thursday after running out of oxygen while attempting to deliver air tanks.

USA TODAY, through interviews and research, compiled this list of questions and answers to address why the mission is so difficult:

If rescuers know where the boys are, can't a drill be used to open a hole from above and hoist the boys out?
The spot where the boys and their coach are is about a half-mile down, through mostly solid rock. The mountain terrain above the cave is heavy jungle, with few access roads.

Forrest Wilson, the chief diving officer for the National Cave Rescue Commission and who has 50 years of cave diving experience, including several rescues, said drilling into the cave from above is not impossible. But the maps of the cave are not accurate enough to get a good fix on exactly where to drill.

"It will take a long time to drill through a half a kilometer of cave," Wilson said. "I don't think there's time."

Isn't there a way, using modern technology, that rescuers could get a more accurate fix from above on where the boys are?
Yes, there is. It's called a radio cave locator and it's basically a beacon that transmits a radio wave from within the cave and lets people on the outside know precisely where the beacon – and the trapped people – are located.

It's unclear if authorities in Thailand are using such a beacon — or if it is making any difference to the rescue effort. Since drilling through such heavy rock would take weeks, having a precise location is probably a moot point.

That's a big cave. Why are rescuers so worried about oxygen?
Ventilation from the surface is poor. There's simply not enough air going into the cave space to sustain 12 boys and an adult for a long period of time. Rescue workers are trying to run an oxygen line from the mouth of the cave to the chamber where the trapped people are, but that's about three miles.

The oxygen level in the cave is estimated to be about 15 percent and decreasing (normal oxygen level is about 21 percent.) A low oxygen level means simple tasks like thinking and basic physical exertion become gradually more exhausting.

Can't the water from the cave simply be pumped out?
Not all of it. Heavy industrial pumps are pumping water out of the cave around the clock, and authorities on Friday estimated they have pumped out more than 35 million gallons in the past week. But seeing as how a cave is a huge water repository, the millions of gallons being pumped out amounts to proverbial drops in a bucket.

In about four months, Thailand's dry season would naturally deplete the water in the cave. But rescue workers don't believe that the boys can hold on that long, considering oxygen levels and other concerns.

So, what is the best chance to get the trapped people out?
Find a back entrance to the cave. "A cave as large as the one they're in is bound to have a back entrance," Wilson said. "There would be no problem if they found one. They could put harnesses on the kids and pull them out."

But finding that back cave entrance in such heavy jungle is extremely difficult. The entrance would likely be a simple hole in the ground, commonly called a "chimney" that would hopefully go straight down to a cavern near where the boys are. But the entrance hole for such a chimney would be hard to spot because of the forest. "There are people walking all over that jungle right now trying to find it," Wilson said.

Can't the boys just swim out with the help of expert divers?
Sure, but it is very risky. The boys and their coach have been trapped for nearly two weeks and they are getting weaker. Most do not know how to swim. Authorities, however, are increasingly thinking that this may be the best course at this point, since heavy rain is expected Sunday. Thailand's Navy Seal Commode said Friday that such an operation would be a daring and risky operation, but that it may be the only chance.

"That would be a heck of a job," Wilson said. "The kids are not in good shape to be swimming out. It's a five-hour swim job. It's scary."

How often do people get trapped like this in caves in the U.S. and other countries? Is this rescue more difficult than others?
The Thai rescue operation is probably more treacherous than others because of the sheer size of the cave, the oncoming monsoon season, and the isolated area. Wilson said that in his many years as a diver, "I've never done one as extensive" as the Thai attempted rescue.

In the late 1970s, Wilson and others rescued a group of college students in Kentucky under somewhat similar circumstances. The students went into a dry cave that, after a heavy rain, became filled with enough water to block their way out. Eventually, all of the students were rescued after divers kept them well stocked with blankets and food.

Is there any way to prevent these kinds of cave incidents from happening?
One of the best defenses that cave explorers can be armed with is knowledge of the upcoming weather: If it looks like it may rain, it is not a good idea to go deep into a cave.

But preventing cave exploration, even on rainy days, is unlikely.

"That would be like telling people, 'Don't drink and drive,'" Wilson said. "People are going to do it, even if it's risky."
 

Soul Surfer

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I think they should concentrate their efforts on getting food to the kids and oxygen in the cave and then wait for the dry season in 4 months.

I've been studying the options and that is not talked about much but seems like the only option really.
 
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LesBaker

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I think they should concentrate their efforts on getting food to the kids and oxygen in the cave and then wait for the 4-month dry season.

I've been studying the options and that is not talked about much but seems like the only option really.

I think that may be what they end up trying to do and then getting people out as they can. They may not be able to get everyone out all at once in one large effort, it may take awhile to get everyone out. Some of those kids may be able to be rescued before others, and they should be if that's the case.
 

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I think they should concentrate their efforts on getting food to the kids and oxygen in the cave and then wait for the 4-month dry season.

I've been studying the options and that is not talked about much but seems like the only option really.

All options seem poor. Hard to think positive on this one.

But; a lot of smart people are trying to find a way.
 

Soul Surfer

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They will definitely bring them out one at a time to ensure that they don't lose anybody more than one at a time.

The problem is the kids don't know how to swim at all.
There's no way they'll be able to be underwater for extended periods of time without panicking.

Let's hope people learn something from this.
 

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I've done cave diving twice. It would have only been once if I hadn't lost a bet. Diving in caves is absolutely no fun and it can be terrifying even for an experienced diver. I can't imagine having to cave dive in those conditions for a continuous 5 hour stretch... and when I think about these guys attempting it as their 1st ever dive (and that they are weakened and can't even swim) I know that the chances of disaster are basically 100%.

The whole situation has been making me crazy with sadness and anger. I almost can't bring myself to read the next news clip on this every time a new one comes out because of how hopeless it is.
 

fearsomefour

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I think they should concentrate their efforts on getting food to the kids and oxygen in the cave and then wait for the dry season in 4 months.

I've been studying the options and that is not talked about much but seems like the only option really.
No good options. I think they are screwed.
The longer they are there the odds of contamination and disease/sickness skyrocket. No idea how big of an area they are restricted to.
 

fearsomefour

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They will definitely bring them out one at a time to ensure that they don't lose anybody more than one at a time.

The problem is the kids don't know how to swim at all.
There's no way they'll be able to be underwater for extended periods of time without panicking.

Let's hope people learn something from this.
Exactly.
5 hours? Is that what the article said? That's crazy.
Longer they wait the weaker the kids get.
Weakened, non swimmers in tight spaces with heavy gear on? Panic city.
I was thinking sedating a kid and putting them in a suit that has a full head enclosure instead of a mouthpiece for breathing and using a couple of divers to get them out. That is probably very far fetched though. I'm not a diver and I have no idea about medication, breathing while underwater etc.
 

LesBaker

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They will definitely bring them out one at a time to ensure that they don't lose anybody more than one at a time.

The problem is the kids don't know how to swim at all.
There's no way they'll be able to be underwater for extended periods of time without panicking.

Let's hope people learn something from this.

I read that not all of them know how, but surely some do..........I also read that it's about 5 hours give or take of time in the water to get out. That's a lot of swimming and as you mention some of it is totally under water. I've been keeping an eye on this and will continue to do that........I hope this ends well.

I found these graphics online which illustrate the cave, this is not going to be easy.
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Don't worry. Elon Musk is on the case.
 

LesBaker

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I've done cave diving twice. It would have only been once if I hadn't lost a bet. Diving in caves is absolutely no fun and it can be terrifying even for an experienced diver. I can't imagine having to cave dive in those conditions for a continuous 5 hour stretch... and when I think about these guys attempting it as their 1st ever dive (and that they are weakened and can't even swim) I know that the chances of disaster are basically 100%.

The whole situation has been making me crazy with sadness and anger. I almost can't bring myself to read the next news clip on this every time a new one comes out because of how hopeless it is.

Fortunately they won't have to dive the entire way, but they will be under water a lot and that is the worrisome part. Already they are suffering from lowered oxygen levels and malnutrition.

I share that sense of sadness and I just don't understand why this had to happen.
 

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Exactly.
5 hours? Is that what the article said? That's crazy.
Longer they wait the weaker the kids get.
Weakened, non swimmers in tight spaces with heavy gear on? Panic city.
I was thinking sedating a kid and putting them in a suit that has a full head enclosure instead of a mouthpiece for breathing and using a couple of divers to get them out. That is probably very far fetched though. I'm not a diver and I have no idea about medication, breathing while underwater etc.
It's definitely worth considering.
 

Soul Surfer

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But I do believe that they were driven farther into the cave by the rising water.
They may have planned a much shorter hike and then the rains drove them in 2 more miles possibly.
 

Soul Surfer

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If they did bring them out through the water, they can do it one segment at a time and potentially let them rest for days before attempting another segment.
I would think the oxygen levels would improve as they move towards the entrance because that air hasn't been breathed as much.

Also, the more kids you take out of the compartment they are trapped in, the less air they will breathe.

In the meantime you had better get those kids some food and boost the oxygen level in there.
 

Soul Surfer

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The whole situation has been making me crazy with sadness and anger. I almost can't bring myself to read the next news clip on this every time a new one comes out because of how hopeless it is.
You are in no way responsible.

And you can't take the weight of the world on your shoulders, bro.

I think they have a 70% chance that 70% of them will make it out.
That's what I'm hanging on to.
 
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...ys-in-cave/ar-AAzHdBJ?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=U508DHP

Conditions 'perfect' for evacuation of Thai boys in cave
5 hrs ago

Full screen
Slideshow by photo services
Conditions are "perfect" to evacuate a young football team from a flooded Thai cave in the coming days before fresh rains and a possible rise in carbon dioxide further imperil the group, the rescue mission chief said Saturday.

The plight of 12 Thai boys and their coach from the "Wild Boar" football team has transfixed Thailand since they became trapped in a cramped chamber of the Tham Luang cave complex on June 23.

Rescuers have conceded that evacuating the boys is a race against time with monsoon rains expected to undo days of round-the-clock drainage of the deluged cave.

More than 100 exploratory holes have been bored -- some shallow, but the longest 400 metres deep -- into the mountainside in an attempt to open a second evacuation route and avoid forcing the boys into a dangerous dive through submerged tunnels.

"Now and in the next three or four days, the conditions are perfect (for evacuation) in terms of the water, the weather and the boys' health," Narongsak Osottanakorn the chief of the rescue operation told reporters.

"We have to make a clear decision on what we can do."

Rescuers have fed a kilometres-long air pipe into the cave to restore oxygen levels in the chamber where the team are sheltering, accompanied by medics and expert divers.

"When we're in a confined space if the oxygen drops to 12 percent the human body starts to slow down and people can fall unconscious," Narongsak said.

"There's also carbon dioxide. If the oxygen levels are down and the carbon dioxide levels are up, then you can get too much carbon dioxide in your blood."

Heavy rains could make the water rise to the shelf where the children are sitting, reducing the area to "less than 10 square meters," he added, citing estimates from cave divers and experts.

In the early hours of Saturday morning he said the boys were not yet ready to dive-out of the cave, a complex and dangerous task through twisting and jagged submerged passageways.

But his comments 12 hours later suggest the thinking has changed, with water levels inside the cave currently managed to their lowest point by constant drainage.

- 'I love you Dad, Mum' -

Earlier on Saturday Thai Navy SEALS published touching notes scrawled by the trapped footballers to their families, who are waiting for them agonisingly close-by outside the cave entrance.

The children urged relatives "not to worry" and asked for their favourite food once they are safely evacuated.

In one Pheerapat, nicknamed "Night", whose 16th birthday the group were celebrating in the cave when they became stuck on June 23, said:

"I love you, Dad, Mum and my sister. You don't need to be worried about me."

Meanwhile the 25-year-old coach Ekkapol Chantawong, the only adult to accompany the boys into the cave, sent his "apologies" to their parents.

"To all the parents, all the kids are still fine. I promise to take the very best care of the kids," he said in a note given to divers on Friday.

"Thank you for all the moral support and I apologise to the parents."

The boys are being trained in the basics of diving in case the floodwaters force authorities into a sudden evacuation.

- 'Limited time' -

The risks were underlined by the death on Friday of a former Thai Navy SEAL diver, who ran out of oxygen while returning from the chamber where the boys are trapped.

Saman Kunan had been trying to establish the air line when he passed out and perished.

"We lost one man, but we still have faith to carry out our work," Navy Seal Commode Apakorn Yookongkaew said, adding that rescuers have "a limited time" to extract the boys.

Ekkapol's message is the first from the coach, whose role in the team's predicament has split Thai social media.

Many have lauded him after reports he gave his share of food to the kids before they were located and helped them get through nine days in the darkness.

Others have criticised him for agreeing to take the young boys into the cave during the monsoon season.

The group became trapped deep inside the cave after flood waters gushed in.
 

LesBaker

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Exactly.
5 hours? Is that what the article said? That's crazy.
Longer they wait the weaker the kids get.
Weakened, non swimmers in tight spaces with heavy gear on? Panic city.
I was thinking sedating a kid and putting them in a suit that has a full head enclosure instead of a mouthpiece for breathing and using a couple of divers to get them out. That is probably very far fetched though. I'm not a diver and I have no idea about medication, breathing while underwater etc.

I had the same thought that sedating them and carrying them out might work, then you don't have to worry about them panicking or struggling with the trip. The water is murky, evidently there are some levels of different strength currents and some tight spaces to navigate. It's certainly an option because if one of the kids freaks out that reduces the chance of a successful rescue.

And I may have been wrong, it may be 5 hours of all diving.


I think they have a 70% chance that 70% of them will make it out.

I'm going with my gut and they all make it out and sell the rights to a movie producer and live happily ever after!

This is a good video, and shows just how big of a task this is..........wow.

 

CGI_Ram

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I had the same thought that sedating them and carrying them out might work, then you don't have to worry about them panicking or struggling with the trip. The water is murky, evidently there are some levels of different strength currents and some tight spaces to navigate. It's certainly an option because if one of the kids freaks out that reduces the chance of a successful rescue.

And I may have been wrong, it may be 5 hours of all diving.




I'm going with my gut and they all make it out and sell the rights to a movie producer and live happily ever after!

This is a good video, and shows just how big of a task this is..........wow.



That is a great video.
 

LesBaker

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That is a great video.

I'm following this with a lot of interest, sort of like the Chilean mine rescue...........

I've read they are following this also and one of them sent a video message.

The rescue effort may ramp up quickly because there may be a storm coming. They are now talking about buddy divers to get everyone out.