Take It or Leave It: Barron, JL55, and Tree'...

[SuperMan28]

Becomes the new base set for the Rams once Tree' returns. Rams base set has been the Nickel. With the trio on the field regularly, this essentially switches to a 4-3.

The burning question I'm really asking is how do we alternate Barron and Tree' when Tree' returns? I think Barron's really earning his stripes and I wanna see our best players on the field. Essentially, I want to see more of Barron than Ayers once Tree' returns. This is not a knock on Ayers, BTW. Ayers is earning his paycheck and I like the way he's playing. Barron is just playing great right now and I want him on the field with Tree' and James. It's just a devastating combination in a similar manner of SEA's LB'ers but different.

This defense could be reach a ridiculous level if it stays healthy.

 

[ramfan46]

I like Barron as part of the Base D when Tree returns. My only thought would be possibly a package of Tree and Barron as LBs and Joyner coming into the Nickel on 3rd downs or long passing situations. Give JL55 a blow a few snaps a game and you have more speed on the field for your Pass D.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Quinn-Brockers-Donald-Hayes
Ogletree - JL55 - Ayers
Jenkins-McDonald-Barron-Johnson

This should be our base 4/3 defense

Quinn-Brockers-Donald-Hayes
Ogletree-Ayers

Jenkins-Barron-McDonald-McLeod-Johnson

or
Quinn-Brockers-Donald-Hayes

Ogletree- Barron
Jenkins-McDonald-Mcleod-Joyner-Johnson

some combo.....Barron needs to be on the field 100% of the plays...This is of course when Ogletree returns...We need Ayers for serious running teams like Seattle & 49ers.

 

[Amitar]

If the Rams had a healthy Long, Ogletree, and Gaines it would be #1

 

[jjab360]

Quinn-Brockers-Donald-Hayes
Ogletree - JL55 - Ayers
Jenkins-McDonald-Barron-Johnson

This should be our base 4/3 defense

Nah, Barron and McDonald are both best as box safeties, we need Mcleod playing FS deep.

 

[LACHAMP46]

Barron and McDonald are both best as box safeties

Says everybody in here....And they still haven't proven it to be true.....Before the last few weeks, everyone ASSUMED BARRON could barely play....Now everyone assumes the #7 overall draftpick can't play pass defense....OKAY

TJ & Mark are the best safeties on the team...period....McLeod has proven adequate....but should NEVER be on the field ahead of either of them...period.

This new rule...box safeties....no matter how often Fish/Williams tells the world the safeties need to be interchangeable...no matter how often you see TJ playing deep (see the JJ int with ball on helmet, who was the deep safety??)...No matter how often we see Mark deep, some will still claim these two athletes can ONLY play in the box....OKAY

Some of us need to really see the type of player Sean Taylor was, to see Williams vision on what he prefers in his safeties...

The difference will continue to be, always being 12th in total overall defense, losing to superior offensive teams, with occasional games of brilliance against teams like the Browns...or like the 49ers...Teams that move the ball like some dentist's pull teeth...painfully & very slow. And everyone will say how great we are until the next time we give up 500+ yards and they see the weaknesses....or it'll be an outlier...not the norm...

You can't base a defense on one game...that's why season stats are so great....and contrary to what many saw last week....McCown threw for 250+ yards....It was those fumbles & pressure that made the defense look spectacular. You can't count on fumbles every week...Sometimes it the basics...and for defense it starts with tackling.

 

[junkman]

Snap counts for the Rams D last two games since 'tree went down are very interesting.

Basically, the Rams starting secondary - JJenks, McLeod, TruJo, TJ McD - plays every down (** more or less). That means any other secondary snaps means we're playing NICKLE or DIME.

JL55 plays every down, more or less, all season (every season).

Before 'Tree went down, he played every down, more or less, all season. Since then, Barron has played every down more or less. Really, Barron is a SS playing big nickle. Sure, he's standing in the place where the WIL is supposed to stand, and as a WIL, he's undersized but ridiculously athletic / rangy / big hitting / instinctive. But he's still a SS.

So now we have (more or less) every snap accounted for on D for 6 spots: 5 secondary players, 1 LB. If you accept this, that means Rams are ALWAYS (effectively) playing NICKLE or more.

So 5 positions left, where do those go? Since the Rams are 4-3 and have a crazy group of talented DL and DT, you'd kinda expect 4/5 of those to go to DL, right?? Well... let's look:

Against Green Bay and Cleveland last 2 games:
Lamarcus Joyner got 56/65 and 50/79 snaps.
Mo Alexander got 0/65 and 5/79 snaps.

Add that up and we've got 56/65 and 55/79 effectively playing DIME. That's a lotta DIME.

Ayers got 22/65 and 43/79 snaps.
Daren Bates got 9/65 and 0/79 snaps.

Add that in, and 29/65 and 43/79 and we're starting to eat into DL snaps. That is: 20/65 and 19/79 when we only have 3 DL.

That's somewhat counter-intuitive given the Rams DL talent level. But that is VERY consistent with Gregg Williams history, getting a lot of uber-athletic hard hitting play making jokers on the field to wreak havoc wherever they can. Guys like Ogletree, Barron and TJ McD are what I think of as quintessential Gregg W players.

So what about DL snaps last two games?
Donald 52 + 63 (an ungodly 115 / 144 snaps, 80% of snaps. Holy cow!!)
Brockers 40 + 49 = 89
Hayes 45 + 40 = 85
Sims 28 + 47 = 85
Quinn 42 + 32 = 74
Fairley 28 + 30 = 58
Long 16 + 0 = 16

522 DL snaps out of 3.625 DL snaps average which is probably over-stated on typical down/distance plays because that average would be increased by short yardage plays.

Quinn only getting 32 snaps against CLE (40.5%)? Imagine how good the Rams D would be if Quinn was playing (healthy enough to play?) his usual 76-80% of the snaps.

~~

** Roberson got 5 snaps against Cleveland, but those replaced Tru Jo when he was injured.

EDIT. Barron only played 52 / 65 snaps against CLE. So some of that analysis above is off. I'm not going to bother to fix it. The overall point still stands. A lotta NICKLE (effectively). A lotta DIME (effectively). Not all 4/1/6 dime, only about 2/3 of the time.

 

[SuperMan28]

There is just something so enticing about Barron, JL55, and Tree' in there for most any situation outside of 3+ WR sets (unless it's a zone) and goal line. Those guys can all swarm and conver. All really good on the blitz, too. Barron is a hammer so it's like he is a LB'er in that regard. I'm starting to wonder what benefit there is to having Ayers over Barron in there. Ayers weighs more. That's about it.

 

[junkman]

Says everybody in here....And they still haven't proven it to be true.....Before the last few weeks, everyone ASSUMED BARRON could barely play....Now everyone assumes the #7 overall draftpick can't play pass defense....OKAY

TJ & Mark are the best safeties on the team...period....McLeod has proven adequate....but should NEVER be on the field ahead of either of them...period.

This new rule...box safeties....no matter how often Fish/Williams tells the world the safeties need to be interchangeable...no matter how often you see TJ playing deep (see the JJ int with ball on helmet, who was the deep safety??)...No matter how often we see Mark deep, some will still claim these two athletes can ONLY play in the box....OKAY

Evidence is to the contrary. McLeod and TJ McD have played (for all intents and purposes) every snap this year. Barron has only been an every down player for the Rams starting the CLE game. Barron has only played 258/437 or 60% of snaps this year. That said, I imagine he won't leave the field again until 'Tree comes back... and even then he'll be on the field a LOT.

 

[jjab360]

Says everybody in here....And they still haven't proven it to be true.....Before the last few weeks, everyone ASSUMED BARRON could barely play....Now everyone assumes the #7 overall draftpick can't play pass defense....OKAY

TJ & Mark are the best safeties on the team...period....McLeod has proven adequate....but should NEVER be on the field ahead of either of them...period.

This new rule...box safeties....no matter how often Fish/Williams tells the world the safeties need to be interchangeable...no matter how often you see TJ playing deep (see the JJ int with ball on helmet, who was the deep safety??)...No matter how often we see Mark deep, some will still claim these two athletes can ONLY play in the box....OKAY

Some of us need to really see the type of player Sean Taylor was, to see Williams vision on what he prefers in his safeties...

The difference will continue to be, always being 12th in total overall defense, losing to superior offensive teams, with occasional games of brilliance against teams like the Browns...or like the 49ers...Teams that move the ball like some dentist's pull teeth...painfully & very slow. And everyone will say how great we are until the next time we give up 500+ yards and they see the weaknesses....or it'll be an outlier...not the norm...

You can't base a defense on one game...that's why season stats are so great....and contrary to what many saw last week....McCown threw for 250+ yards....It was those fumbles & pressure that made the defense look spectacular. You can't count on fumbles every week...Sometimes it the basics...and for defense it starts with tackling.

McDonald has proven capable as a deep safety, but has definitely been more effective in the box.

As far as Mark Barron, TB had to figure out the hard way that the further away he is from the LOS the less effective he is. He's a crazy good, instinctive football player, but you're taking away from his strengths and magnifying his weaknesses playing him deep. This is not an assumption that is an observation based on a 4 year NFL career.

 

[junkman]

There is just something so enticing about Barron, JL55, and Tree' in there for most any situation outside of 3+ WR sets (unless it's a zone) and goal line. Those guys can all swarm and conver. All really good on the blitz, too. Barron is a hammer so it's like he is a LB'er in that regard. I'm starting to wonder what benefit there is to having Ayers over Barron in there. Ayers weighs more. That's about it.

I was going to say that we need Ayers for teams that want to power run against the Rams, like Washington (where he only played 28 snaps). My impression of Ayers is that he's much better at holding point of attack than Barron, who is more likely to flash / impact, or Ogletree who is more of a pursuit guy. At the end of the day, hard to say who is really more effective against the run. Ogletree was tackling everybody before he went down and I had a hard time imagining how the Rams would replace that productivity. But they haven't skipped a beat with Barron. If anything, the whole defense feels faster / more nasty / more aggressive these last few weeks, but that's an overall impression rather than a comment about Barron specifically.

Hope they can keep this up!

 

[LACHAMP46]

He's a crazy good, instinctive football player, but you're taking away from his strengths and magnifying his weaknesses playing him deep.

Of course....the further away, the less impact....I get that....But in a game with 60-70 plays....nothing wrong with throwing the offense for a loop by lining him up in a single or 2-deep safety look every now & then....10-20 plays....the other 40-50, let him roam the box.....

I just would hate to limit what this guy can do on the field, by removing him from the game....He's a tackling machine, explosive hitter, and makes turnovers happen. He and TJ should never, ever leave the game....and when Tree returns, man....behind Donald & that line....

 

[leoram]

This is the best thread I've seen in a very long time. Good work all...

What I love is how GW puts everyone in a place to succeed based on down/distance/personnel. Without that, he would be as ineffective as Jim Haslett and that's what I feared when Fisher hired GW back. This isn't a defense based only on scheme. The players have attitude, talent, and knowledge of an aggressive, complex defense. When Fairley recovered a fumble and the other players rushed to him like a pack of rabid hyenas, I saw a defense that suddenly became a dominant force. They will crave that moment and work their asses off to feel it again. This, plus real intelligence, is the genius of Gregg Williams