Steve Spagnuolo

[Prime Time]

I kind of wonder why that thread was here...I mean, what it has to do with Stevie and the Rams at this point in time...

The thread was posted right before our game with the Giants. Thought some would be interested in Spags and what he's been doing since his head coach de-pantsing( is that even a word)?

 

[Rmfnlt]

That's just the way it works.
Equally funny how bad most coordinators look when they don't have the players.

Yeah, that is how it works.

Talented teams make coaches look better... and no-talent teams make coaches look worse.

Spagnuolo inherited a depleted team... he did a total make-over and improved initially, then the injuries hit and adios.

He never made excuses (unlike some other recent HC ).

I view him as I do a lot of other guys who were HCs and failed.

The HC job is very big and demands a lot of a man. Some are up to it and can juggle all the balls simultaneously, some cannot.

My take is he could not... neither could Linehan, who is similar to Spagnuolo in that he now has a talented roster... and succeeding... go figger.

Maybe one of them - or both of them - get another shot at a HC job. Maybe they learned how difficult it really was... where they went wrong, can adjust and succeed (Bellichick had to go through that).

But, if a team takes a flyer on either one, it'll be risky. I know the Rams won't... and I'm happy about that.

 

[thirteen28]

The irony of Spags working well with Jenkins is that JJ is exactly the kind of guy he would have avoided drafting due to the whole 4 pillars crap. Maybe he'll learn something from that.

He deserves plenty of credit for turning around NY's D, but it should be noted that if he still holds onto his 4 pillars approach, he would have never had JJ if given the final say.

 

[dieterbrock]

I'm still on your side that Spags ran out of time and the season that was 2011 completely freaked everything up.

crap, using revisionist history, the 2011 season, IMO, was a watershed one for the franchise and probably first one since Martz was fired.

Yeah, 2011 was just a jail break of everything that could go wrong could. That's why I always felt the idea that Fisher improved a 2 win team to 7 wins was a bit over rated. Spags won 7 games in 2010.
So I don't think the 2011 was as bad as 2-14 indicated, but did feel the firing of Spagnolo was just

 

[Rmfnlt]

The irony of Spags working well with Jenkins is that JJ is exactly the kind of guy he would have avoided drafting due to the whole 4 pillars crap. Maybe he'll learn something from that.

He deserves plenty of credit for turning around NY's D, but it should be noted that if he still holds onto his 4 pillars approach, he would have never had JJ if given the final say.

Maybe not... probably not... but reaching for "athletes" didn't work so well for Fisher.

As usual, somewhere in the middle is probably the best approach.

I hate to keep bringing the guy up, but Bellichick has managed to make the combination work (high character guys with a few rogues thrown in).

 

[thirteen28]

Maybe not... probably not... but reaching for "athletes" didn't work so well for Fisher.

As usual, somewhere in the middle is probably the best approach.

I hate to keep bringing the guy up, but Bellichick has managed to make the combination work (high character guys with a few rogues thrown in).

You're talking apples though, and I'm talking oranges. I don't disagree with your point about reaching for "athletes", but Jenkins was anything but a reach. His play during his time in the league has shown that, he wasn't merely and athlete to be developed, he was an NFL-ready CB ... but someone who clearly would have failed the 4 pillars test.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Yeah, 2011 was just a jail break of everything that could go wrong could. That's why I always felt the idea that Fisher improved a 2 win team to 7 wins was a bit over rated. Spags won 7 games in 2010.
So I don't think the 2011 was as bad as 2-14 indicated, but did feel the firing of Spagnolo was just

Yeah, it (the firing) was warranted... it's a cold business and results are what matters.

Excuses are not accepted... (unless you're Fisher... I kid... I kid).

The part I didn't like (as it pertained to Spagnuolo and even Fisher) is the venom that gets spewed at these men sometimes.

I've said it before, they didn't want to lose... the job was probably just too big for them. And the sacrifices these HCs make on a personal level demands (in my opinion) some respect.

Say they tried and wish them the best... don't denigrate them personally.

That's what got my goat about the Spagnuolo firing... that, and the circumstances (as you said) were unfortunate for any person.

Glad he's successful again.

 

[Rmfnlt]

You're talking apples though, and I'm talking oranges. I don't disagree with your point about reaching for "athletes", but Jenkins was anything but a reach. His play during his time in the league has shown that, he wasn't merely and athlete to be developed, he was an NFL-ready CB ... but someone who clearly would have failed the 4 pillars test.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing that Spagnuolo probably would have steered clear of him.

And, you're talking about one guy (Jenkins). OK, so HE wasn't a reach.. but Fisher and Snead did reach on others and it's resulted in a team that can't get past .500

Again, the optimum is probably a little of both.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[thirteen28]

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing that Spagnuolo probably would have steered clear of him.

And, you're talking about one guy (Jenkins). OK, so HE wasn't a reach.. but Fisher and Snead did reach on others and it's resulted in a team that can't get past .500

Again, the optimum is probably a little of both.

Just my opinion, of course.

If I was a GM, the time I would probably focus more on the athletes with the objective of coaching them up would be after there was a good team in place already. You can more easily afford a mistake then. Who knows how Brian Quick would have turned out had he gone to a team with several good WRs in place for him to learn from. Instead he came to a WR poor team, with a mediocre at best OC and WR coach who wasn't able to coach him up fast enough (if such a thing was even possible).

When you are rebuilding, as the Rams were when JF and LS arrived, that's the time to take guys that are closer to being NFL ready. And on the defensive side of the ball, they seemed to do that ... Brockers, Jenkins, Ogletree, Donald ... these guys were already highly developed, and they all ended up starting for significant chunks (if not the entirety) of their rookie seasons. On offense, they made the mistake of taking athletes like Quick (over Alshon Jeffrey) and GRob (over Matthews and Lewan), and have not been able to get them to play up to their draft position. So in summary, the reaching for athletes thing seems to apply to the offensive draft picks of the Rams, not so much on the defensive side.

That brings me to another thing: Know your limitations. Fisher didn't, nor did he properly assess the limitations of the offensive staff he put in place. He wanted guys like Quick and GRob because he thought their athletic potential gave them a high upside, but knowing they were raw and would need time and solid coaching to develop. He failed to recognize his own limitations in understanding offense, as well as the limitations of his staff, and I think that goes a long way toward explaining why the "athletes" picks haven't worked out.

 

[dieterbrock]

The part I didn't like (as it pertained to Spagnuolo and even Fisher) is the venom that gets spewed at these men sometimes.

Well, as you know, I was a big supporter of Spags initially,was a huge defender of his until it became apparent to me that he was in over his head. When he quit against the Giants, it seemed it all went downhill. (As did a certain friendship of mine )
I feel I went the same route with Fisher.
And both times I find myself on the end of the spectrum where there is venom.
I don't think its right or wrong, I just think that people like us that spend so much time talking about this team, have a screw or two loose. Seems like we need folks on either side, those who look for the coach to be crucified, and those that need to defend. Variety is the spice of life...
That said, I am happy to see Spags doing well with Giants. Fisher could learn a thing or two from him as IIRC, Spags didn't throw any stones on his way out the door. Handled it with a bit more class than the recently departed

 

[Lesson]

Yeah, 2011 was just a jail break of everything that could go wrong could. That's why I always felt the idea that Fisher improved a 2 win team to 7 wins was a bit over rated. Spags won 7 games in 2010.
So I don't think the 2011 was as bad as 2-14 indicated, but did feel the firing of Spagnolo was just

I just think he should have been given 4 years. The 2010 team, once again using revisionist history, was weak. The Rams had the 31st strongest/2nd weakest schedule of any team in the league based off of opponents win percentage. So, while the 7 wins might have been a fluke, I don't think the team should have performed as poorly as it did in 2011.

Now, if Spags had failed to go above .500 in 2012, then I would have wanted him to get the boot. Given the circumstances he inherited and how the team had to be completely gutted in 2009, I do think he should have been given a fourth year, but it would've been hard to sell it to the fanbase. 10 wins over 3 seasons is hard to sell to people.

 

[thirteen28]

I just think he should have been given 4 years. The 2010 team, once again using revisionist history, was weak. The Rams had the 31st strongest/2nd weakest schedule of any team in the league based off of opponents win percentage. So, while the 7 wins might have been a fluke, I don't think the team should have performed as poorly as it did in 2011.

Now, if Spags had failed to go above .500 in 2012, then I would have wanted him to get the boot. Given the circumstances he inherited and how the team had to be completely gutted in 2009, I do think he should have been given a fourth year, but it would've been hard to sell it to the fanbase. 10 wins over 3 seasons is hard to sell to people.

I won't deny that 2011 was a jailbreak as you characterized it. That being said, I think the justification for firing Spags (and Devaney as well) could easily be found in the next year when so many players from that roster were out of the league never to return again.

The other thing that drove me crazy about Spags - and it's something Fisher was guilty of as well - was his willingness to sit on leads and lean on his defense too early in the game. There were at least 3-4 losses in the 7-9 season of 2010 where he did that, where the O went into an ultra-conservative play-not-to-lose mode once we had a couple of scores on the board. I just don't think there is any room in this league for that approach anymore absent a defense that is indisputably a top 2 or 3 defense. The rules are way too slanted in favor of the offense and in favor of scoring.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Well, as you know, I was a big supporter of Spags initially,was a huge defender of his until it became apparent to me that he was in over his head. When he quit against the Giants, it seemed it all went downhill. (As did a certain friendship of mine )
I feel I went the same route with Fisher.
And both times I find myself on the end of the spectrum where there is venom.
I don't think its right or wrong, I just think that people like us that spend so much time talking about this team, have a screw or two loose. Seems like we need folks on either side, those who look for the coach to be crucified, and those that need to defend. Variety is the spice of life...
That said, I am happy to see Spags doing well with Giants. Fisher could learn a thing or two from him as IIRC, Spags didn't throw any stones on his way out the door. Handled it with a bit more class than the recently departed

Yeah... crazy how emotional we get about this team, ain't it?

I'm getting up there in age and, as time goes by, I get less and less upset about this team. Call it apathy.. but my highs and lows have leveled out and I try to see the human side of things.

We shouldn't gloat about a man losing his job, even if it was warranted... God knows, they tried. And to have friendships ruined by that? In retrospect, it is sad.

So, Spags is in a better place and so am I (on this board).

Now... if the Rams can just get this ship righted! I was on vacation and didn't see the game... glad I didn't... geesh.

Can't wait for the off-season moves... they'd better get this one right!

 

[dieterbrock]

If I was a GM, the time I would probably focus more on the athletes with the objective of coaching them up would be after there was a good team in place already. You can more easily afford a mistake then. Who knows how Brian Quick would have turned out had he gone to a team with several good WRs in place for him to learn from. Instead he came to a WR poor team, with a mediocre at best OC and WR coach who wasn't able to coach him up fast enough (if such a thing was even possible).

When you are rebuilding, as the Rams were when JF and LS arrived, that's the time to take guys that are closer to being NFL ready. And on the defensive side of the ball, they seemed to do that ... Brockers, Jenkins, Ogletree, Donald ... these guys were already highly developed, and they all ended up starting for significant chunks (if not the entirety) of their rookie seasons. On offense, they made the mistake of taking athletes like Quick (over Alshon Jeffrey) and GRob (over Matthews and Lewan), and have not been able to get them to play up to their draft position. So in summary, the reaching for athletes thing seems to apply to the offensive draft picks of the Rams, not so much on the defensive side.

That brings me to another thing: Know your limitations. Fisher didn't, nor did he properly assess the limitations of the offensive staff he put in place. He wanted guys like Quick and GRob because he thought their athletic potential gave them a high upside, but knowing they were raw and would need time and solid coaching to develop. He failed to recognize his own limitations in understanding offense, as well as the limitations of his staff, and I think that goes a long way toward explaining why the "athletes" picks haven't worked out.

Great post.
Just my 2 bit analysis, but the idea of drafting a Quick, or a Goff and not expecting anything out of them in their first year is more an indication that the staff doesn't know how to get a player ready.

 

[thirteen28]

That said, I am happy to see Spags doing well with Giants. Fisher could learn a thing or two from him as IIRC, Spags didn't throw any stones on his way out the door. Handled it with a bit more class than the recently departed

Very true. I was certainly no fan of Spags when he left, but he didn't make a bunch of excuses. I actually felt bad for JF the day of the firing, after the excuses and the under-the-bus tossings, not so much.

Great post.
Just my 2 bit analysis, but the idea of drafting a Quick, or a Goff and not expecting anything out of them in their first year is more an indication that the staff doesn't know how to get a player ready.

Of that I have no doubt. Not only did our offensive staff fail to get players ready, but players that appeared to be ready early on have regressed. Just pitiful.

 

[Lesson]

I won't deny that 2011 was a jailbreak as you characterized it. That being said, I think the justification for firing Spags (and Devaney as well) could easily be found in the next year when so many players from that roster were out of the league never to return again.

The other thing that drove me crazy about Spags - and it's something Fisher was guilty of as well - was his willingness to sit on leads and lean on his defense too early in the game. There were at least 3-4 losses in the 7-9 season of 2010 where he did that, where the O went into an ultra-conservative play-not-to-lose mode once we had a couple of scores on the board. I just don't think there is any room in this league for that approach anymore absent a defense that is indisputably a top 2 or 3 defense. The rules are way too slanted in favor of the offense and in favor of scoring.

I completely understand why Spags and Devaney were fired. In my opinion, if they had lost slightly less and did it with younger players when injuries started to hit(they went from one of the league's youngest rosters to one of the league's oldest rosters), I think that might been enough to save both of their jobs. But they didn't and went 2-14.

As for Spags being conservative on offense, I agree. I think he meddled with the offense with Shurmur, similar to what Fisher did. As for the 1 season with McDaniels, I have no idea, as the team was a mess.

 

[dieterbrock]

I just think he should have been given 4 years. The 2010 team, once again using revisionist history, was weak. The Rams had the 31st strongest/2nd weakest schedule of any team in the league based off of opponents win percentage. So, while the 7 wins might have been a fluke, I don't think the team should have performed as poorly as it did in 2011.

Now, if Spags had failed to go above .500 in 2012, then I would have wanted him to get the boot. Given the circumstances he inherited and how the team had to be completely gutted in 2009, I do think he should have been given a fourth year, but it would've been hard to sell it to the fanbase. 10 wins over 3 seasons is hard to sell to people.

Well, on the other hand, that 2009 season required almost a miracle to keep his job. There have been coaches fired after 1 horrific season like that. Yes, they gutted the team, but they were absolutely awful on both sides of the ball. And they did have Steven Jackson and Marc Bulger. So yeah, I was glad he survived that year and the 7 wins may have been *soft* but wins are wins. 2011 was just such a cluster<expletive> And it just cant pass muster to have a 1 win and 2 win season in a 3 year period and keep your job.
But man, I sure would have liked to have seen what could have become of Bradford and McDaniels having a full off season and a full 16 games to see what they had. Oh yes, water under the bridge for sure

 

[dieterbrock]

God knows, they tried. And to have friendships ruined by that? In retrospect, it is sad.

Well, that was the other guy's fault....