Rams might have NFL's least-experienced O-line/PD

[Faceplant]

A couple of things here:

First of all, this isn't just JT making comments like this. Most of the Rams/NFC West dedicated reporters are saying the same thing. Nick Wagoner just made the same type of comments as JT did here but was even more sceptical. Commenting about the reporter instead of what he's reporting adds nothing to the discussion of this issue IMO. So rather than continue to talk about the reporter I'll address what JT and you are saying about concerning this issue.

1) There is no longer that glaring difference between a LT and a RT in the NFL IMO. The difference is only in degree and potential damge to your QB that can result from a botched assignment. Yes, the LT still usually plays against the other teams best edge rusher but with the huge focus on getting to the passer teams are now making a real concerted effort to have an equally effect pass rush from the left side too. You'll always have your best pass block defender at LT because of the potential damage a blind side hit can can inflict upon your QB but that's becoming more and more the only real difference between the two positions IMO. With much less reliance upon the run you need a RT who can pass block very effectively almost as much as you need him to run block very effectively. That is trending more in that direction every year IMO.

2) The Rams will need to be able to field a "pass effective" offense when they get behind or they will never be successful. So while we might concentrate on the run more than other teams, we need to be very effective in our passing game too. We've all seen what happens when their passing game is an after thought and the defenses put 12 in the box.

3) In my mind you're setting the table incorrectly. What I would say is that if the Rams picked OL that can't run block effectively and pass block effectively no scheme will be very effective in the long run. Since you seem to be biased against anything that JT says I'll paraphrase some of what Nick Wagoner said about this issue. In the past 15 years or so only three teams have won the big one without a very good passing attack and are those the odds you want to try and overcome? Can a run centric offense be very effective in today's NFL? The jury is still out.

I could care less what Wagner, JT or the other "pundits" are saying. Do they watch as much tape as the coaches? Do they observe players in actual games like the Rams scouts? I will trust the people in charge of making those decisions every day over the likes of JT and Wagner. But, ya know, that is just me.....

 

[Stel]

Appears he thinks we should have passed over Gurley for Peat to play ROT, then somehow acquired another 1st round pick to select Tomlinson because that's the only way his observation has any relevance. I think the guy is just pissed at the Rams front office.

 

[Alan]

Faceplant questioning qualifications:
I could care less what Wagner, JT or the other "pundits" are saying. Do they watch as much tape as the coaches? Do they observe players in actual games like the Rams scouts? I will trust the people in charge of making those decisions every day over the likes of JT and Wagner. But, ya know, that is just me.....

That's me too Faceplant. But that wasn't my point. My point was that when Wagoner says stuff like that the response doesn't get personal but when JT does they do. I just wish people would stop that shit.

Same thing with Bernie.

 

[Ram65]

The Patsies proved you have to be able to do both. They game planned dramatically different for opponents in the playoffs. One week they ran the ball more while throwing short passes against the Hags in the SB. This Rams team will be able to shift the split of run/pass 40/60 or 60/40 from week to week. In the NFC West teams run the ball. I'll look up the ratios sometime.

 

[Alan]

Ram65 with a history lesson:
The Patsies proved you have to be able to do both. They game planned dramatically different for opponents in the playoffs. One week they ran the ball more while throwing short passes against the Hags in the SB. This Rams team will be able to shift the split of run/pass 40/60 or 60/40 from week to week. In the NFC West teams run the ball. I'll look up the ratios sometime.

Which is why you should shoot for a balanced attack. If you achieve that you'll always have a chance to win no matter what the circumstances are. I cringe every time I hear the phrase "run centric attack."

That doesn't mean you shouldn't draft supporting players that play to your strengths.

 

[Akrasian]

Which is why you should shoot for a balanced attack. If you achieve that you'll always have a chance to win no matter what the circumstances are. I cringe every time I hear the phrase "run centric attack."

That doesn't mean you shouldn't draft supporting players that play to your strengths.

One thing I've read repeatedly about both Foles and Mannion is that they can throw an accurate deep ball. So while there'll be a lot of running - they'll be ready to take advantage of the defense focusing on the run. Or so the plan goes.

 

[Athos]

Will take inexperience over Davin fuggin' Joseph.

Our line was an eye-sore last year. Being worse would be an incredible feat.

 

[Fatbot]

From my view the "overdraft" tag has a two levels to it: 1) is what is the players ceiling/potential and 2)how far from either hitting that ceiling or reaching acceptable skill levels is the player.

That's a very good summation of the talent component of overdrafting, but the huge piece of "overdraft" people are glossing over is the opportunity cost of the overdraft in terms of picking options.

There's no certainty to a draft, but given his universal label as a late rounder, it's likely that Havenstein would have still been available at pick #72. So the Rams could have drafted AJ Cann -- or Marpet or even Poutasi -- at #57, then picked Havenstein next. By overdrafting, they in essence chose Jamon Brown over a better rated potential starting G.

So it's a case of conflicting proverbs -- "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" versus "have your cake and eat it too". Yeah the Rams got the guy they coveted but to me they could have got Havenstein and Cann, and I'd be sitting here a lot happier today looking at the name "Cann" penciled at starting RG.

If you go against the consensus you had better be right or you start slipping into Al Davis territory.

Alan's posts are spot on in my opinion. Now that it's over I will drink the Jamon Brown kool aid, but I really hope he is better than Cann or else I'm going to add yet another to the sad list of 2nd round guys we could have got but didn't.

 

[Rmfnlt]

A couple of things here:

2) The Rams will need to be able to field a "pass effective" offense when they get behind or they will never be successful. So while we might concentrate on the run more than other teams, we need to be very effective in our passing game too. We've all seen what happens when their passing game is an after thought and the defenses put 12 in the box.
Yes, while they might intend to run the ball down the opponent's throats, that might not always work...
... and, if that is the type of offense they want (run, run, run), it's very possible they won't score tons of points... so, getting behind is a real possibility.

In either of those scenarios, they may find themselves having to pass... in which case, some of these picks will be tested... just have to hope they pass the test for Foles sake.

As easy as it is to say that the limiations on some of these Olinemen will be minimized because they'll run it down their throats, at least for me, I'd feel better if I knew that they could pass protect better than the reports I'm seeing.

We'll see if they can get coached up in time to protect Foles on those enenvitable times when they'll have to pass.

3) In my mind you're setting the table incorrectly. What I would say is that if the Rams picked OL that can't run block effectively and pass block effectively no scheme will be very effective in the long run. Since you seem to be biased against anything that JT says I'll paraphrase some of what Nick Wagoner said about this issue. In the past 15 years or so only three teams have won the big one without a very good passing attack and are those the odds you want to try and overcome? Can a run centric offense be very effective in today's NFL? The jury is still out.
Well, Fisher is going against the tide with his philosophy. But I always believed there is more than one way to be successful. This "it's a pssing league" is great for the talking heads at ESPN to spew because they think it makes them sound smart ... but history has shown you can win by running (as much as Fisher appears to want to)... problem is... it isn't recent history.

 

[Akrasian]

There's no certainty to a draft, but given his universal label as a late rounder, it's likely that Havenstein would have still been available at pick #72. So the Rams could have drafted AJ Cann -- or Marpet or even Poutasi -- at #57, then picked Havenstein next. By overdrafting, they in essence chose Jamon Brown over a better rated potential starting G.

Except that there were reports that the Titans were eyeing him, and they did in fact draft a tackle before the Rams' next pick. So in fact it's likely that Havenstein would NOT have been available.

Teams know who else shows up at Pro Days, who they're watching, how interested they are, etc - also who gets invited for visits. It's not certain that the Titans would have drafted Havenstein, but there is a good chance. Supposedly the Rams tried to trade down a little further but still in front of the Titans. When that fell through, they went ahead and drafted the player they wanted.

 

[Alan]

Akrasian with high hopes:
One thing I've read repeatedly about both Foles and Mannion is that they can throw an accurate deep ball. So while there'll be a lot of running - they'll be ready to take advantage of the defense focusing on the run.

That's a great plan but they would probably need to have an O-line that can pass block well enough to make that work. Do you think we have that?

 

[junkman]

A couple of things here:

First of all, this isn't just JT making comments like this. Most of the Rams/NFC West dedicated reporters are saying the same thing. Nick Wagoner just made the same type of comments as JT did here but was even more sceptical. Commenting about the reporter instead of what he's reporting adds nothing to the discussion of this issue IMO. So rather than continue to talk about the reporter I'll address what JT and you are saying about concerning this issue.

1) There is no longer that glaring difference between a LT and a RT in the NFL IMO. The difference is only in degree and potential damge to your QB that can result from a botched assignment. Yes, the LT still usually plays against the other teams best edge rusher but with the huge focus on getting to the passer teams are now making a real concerted effort to have an equally effect pass rush from the left side too. You'll always have your best pass block defender at LT because of the potential damage a blind side hit can can inflict upon your QB but that's becoming more and more the only real difference between the two positions IMO. With much less reliance upon the run you need a RT who can pass block very effectively almost as much as you need him to run block very effectively. That is trending more in that direction every year IMO.

2) The Rams will need to be able to field a "pass effective" offense when they get behind or they will never be successful. So while we might concentrate on the run more than other teams, we need to be very effective in our passing game too. We've all seen what happens when their passing game is an after thought and the defenses put 12 in the box.

3) In my mind you're setting the table incorrectly. What I would say is that if the Rams picked OL that can't run block effectively and pass block effectively no scheme will be very effective in the long run. Since you seem to be biased against anything that JT says I'll paraphrase some of what Nick Wagoner said about this issue. In the past 15 years or so only three teams have won the big one without a very good passing attack and are those the odds you want to try and overcome? Can a run centric offense be very effective in today's NFL? The jury is still out.

Respectfully, JTs criticism is still off even with what you are saying. If JT wanted to make the points you're making, that building a team with a run-heavy focus is the wrong approach, he should have made those points. But that's not what he did.

JT KNOWS (as we all do) that the Rams are building for a run-heavy offense, and then criticizes them for getting pieces chosen specifically for a run heavy offense. Again, it's disingenuous.

My clumsy metaphor of the day:

• The three pigs are building a BRICK house to keep the wolf out, with a stated strategy that a house made of STICKS could be blown down by the wolf.
• Jim Thomas says: "In today's NFL, you need STICK houses because BRICK houses can come down in an earthquake."
• The three pigs say "damn the earthquakes, we're building a house of BRICK because that's our strategy." They go and buy BRICKS.
• Jim Thomas says: "I don't know what the pigs are thinking buying BRICKS, when there are really good STICKS over there that they could use to build the house."
• Pigs and fans of the Pigs:

If JT disagrees with the strategy, he should disagree with the strategy.

 

[DaveFan'51]

If the NFL season started next Sunday, the Rams’ offensive line probably would look like this:

• Left tackle Greg Robinson.

• Left guard Rodger Saffold.

• Center Barrett Jones.

• Right guard Garrett Reynolds or Jamon Brown.

• Right tackle Rob Havenstein.

Personally, I'd flip Saffold and Reynolds, in this scenario, do to the fact, Saffold is a better RG, and that's the way a lot of the running game is going to go! JMHO!

 

[Alan]

Rmfnlt with this:
Yes, while they might intend to run the ball down the opponent's throats, that might not always work...
... and, if that is the type of offense they want (run, run, run), it's very possible they won't score tons of points... so, getting behind is a real possibility.

In either of those scenarios, they may find themselves having to pass... in which case, some of these picks will be tested... just have to hope they pass the test for Foles sake.

As easy as it is to say that the limiations on some of these Olinemen will be minimized because they'll run it down their throats, at least for me, I'd feel better if I knew that they could pass protect better than the reports I'm seeing.

We'll see if they can get coached up in time to protect Foles on those enenvitable times when they'll have to pass.

Well, Fisher is going against the tide with his philosophy. But I always believed there is more than one way to be successful. This "it's a pssing league" is great for the talking heads at ESPN to spew because they think it makes them sound smart ... but history has shown you can win by running (as much as Fisher appears to want to)... problem is... it isn't recent history.

Well said Rmfnlt. Especially for someone with no vowels in their name.

No doubt about that. The problem with many of those alternative paths to success is that they're usually much harder to travel. When do you think having a Trent Dilfer type at QB will be successful again?

 

[Akrasian]

That's a great plan but they would probably need to have an O-line that can pass block well enough to make that work. Do you think we have that?

If they stack the box to prevent the run, sure. 8 in the box, while the WRs go deep on each side and Cook dashes up the middle of the field past the shocked LBs and Foles throws it over them.

If things go right (always a big if) I see a lot of 80 yard TDs. And when they try to stop those, Gurley ends up in the secondary.

My prediction for the other team . . . is Pain


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSPNQ82Sq4E

 

[DaveFan'51]

I could care less what Wagner, JT or the other "pundits" are saying. Do they watch as much tape as the coaches? Do they observe players in actual games like the Rams scouts? I will trust the people in charge of making those decisions every day over the likes of JT and Wagner. But, ya know, that is just me.....

On a list of 100 pundits, 100 being the worst, I place Pres. Obama at 101, then comes Wagoner, JT, and Gordon!!

 

[Fatbot]

Except that there were reports that the Titans were eyeing him, and they did in fact draft a tackle before the Rams' next pick. So in fact it's likely that Havenstein would NOT have been available.

Yes the Rams chose the "bird in the hand" theory. I personally do not believe it was "likely" Havenstein was gone. I would agree that the Titans might take him at #100, but probably not #66.

 

[Robocop]

A couple of things here:

First of all, this isn't just JT making comments like this. Most of the Rams/NFC West dedicated reporters are saying the same thing. Nick Wagoner just made the same type of comments as JT did here but was even more sceptical. Commenting about the reporter instead of what he's reporting adds nothing to the discussion of this issue IMO. So rather than continue to talk about the reporter I'll address what JT and you are saying about concerning this issue.

1) There is no longer that glaring difference between a LT and a RT in the NFL IMO. The difference is only in degree and potential damge to your QB that can result from a botched assignment. Yes, the LT still usually plays against the other teams best edge rusher but with the huge focus on getting to the passer teams are now making a real concerted effort to have an equally effect pass rush from the left side too. You'll always have your best pass block defender at LT because of the potential damage a blind side hit can can inflict upon your QB but that's becoming more and more the only real difference between the two positions IMO. With much less reliance upon the run you need a RT who can pass block very effectively almost as much as you need him to run block very effectively. That is trending more in that direction every year IMO.

2) The Rams will need to be able to field a "pass effective" offense when they get behind or they will never be successful. So while we might concentrate on the run more than other teams, we need to be very effective in our passing game too. We've all seen what happens when their passing game is an after thought and the defenses put 12 in the box.

3) In my mind you're setting the table incorrectly. What I would say is that if the Rams picked OL that can't run block effectively and pass block effectively no scheme will be very effective in the long run. Since you seem to be biased against anything that JT says I'll paraphrase some of what Nick Wagoner said about this issue. In the past 15 years or so only three teams have won the big one without a very good passing attack and are those the odds you want to try and overcome? Can a run centric offense be very effective in today's NFL? The jury is still out.

ill answer that last question. Yes they can. Look at Kansas City. the Rams are a much better team than them. We may not have a Jamaal Charles (or do we now...) but run heavy is still very viable in todays NFL. Ask Peyton what happened last year when he tried throwing the ball 50 times against us.

 

[Memphis Ram]

That's a very good summation of the talent component of overdrafting, but the huge piece of "overdraft" people are glossing over is the opportunity cost of the overdraft in terms of picking options.

There's no certainty to a draft, but given his universal label as a late rounder, it's likely that Havenstein would have still been available at pick #72. So the Rams could have drafted AJ Cann -- or Marpet or even Poutasi -- at #57, then picked Havenstein next. By overdrafting, they in essence chose Jamon Brown over a better rated potential starting G.

So it's a case of conflicting proverbs -- "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" versus "have your cake and eat it too". Yeah the Rams got the guy they coveted but to me they could have got Havenstein and Cann, and I'd be sitting here a lot happier today looking at the name "Cann" penciled at starting RG.

Alan's posts are spot on in my opinion. Now that it's over I will drink the Jamon Brown kool aid, but I really hope he is better than Cann or else I'm going to add yet another to the sad list of 2nd round guys we could have got but didn't.

I can see your point, in general. However, according to a Titans writer, the Titans were very high on Havenstein and they may have selected him at the top of the very next round (#66 overall) instead of Poutasi whom also according to most draft pundits, I read, was rated much lower by the draftnik media.

Either way, with there being 32 teams with 32 different draft boards and no consensus board that these teams go by, it's makes little sense to be so sure that a team could have gotten a draftnik media board rated prospect later as one or even a few of the 32 different teams may not agree.

BTW, Cann was being tried at C due to his very short arms and has no chance at playing OT. And a couple pieces I read called him a LG only prospect, whereas Brown could potentially play every position on the OLine.

 

[fancents86]

I wonder if Snisher called up theEagles and tried to get a deal done by sending Stacy and maybe a draft pick their way for Mathis? That's the first thing I would have done.