Rams might have NFL's least-experienced O-line/PD

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

RamBill

Legend
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
8,874
Rams might have NFL's least-experienced O-line
• By Jim Thomas

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/foot...cle_c9e30397-41e8-5a70-95fd-76425da5bedf.html

If the NFL season started next Sunday, the Rams’ offensive line probably would look like this:

• Left tackle Greg Robinson.

• Left guard Rodger Saffold.

• Center Barrett Jones.

• Right guard Garrett Reynolds or Jamon Brown.

• Right tackle Rob Havenstein.

Will that get it done for quarterback Nick Foles? Todd Gurley and the Rams’ running game?

Will it inspire confidence in Rams coaches? Or even Rams fandom?

We’ll see. After three consecutive years of opening the season with the NFL’s youngest roster, the Rams very well could have the most inexperienced offensive line in pro football.

Joe Barksdale, you say, at right tackle?

Well, maybe it still happens.

But why would Barksdale — who along with his agent severely overestimated his market value — sign with the Rams after they drafted a right tackle in the second round (Havenstein) and one in the fourth (Andrew Donnal)?

Veteran Justin Blalock at guard? Released by the Atlanta Falcons much earlier in the offseason, Blalock would be an improved Davin Joseph when it came to being a stopgap starter. Maybe a much-improved Joseph.

Blalock once played for Rams offensive line coach Paul Boudreau, so he knows the system and could step right in.

He’s a hard-working veteran who could teach the younger Rams how to take notes in the meeting room, how to approach their craft, how to be a pro. He’s been on the Rams’ radar for a while. But if it hasn’t happened yet, will it happen at all?

There has been some organizational conjecture at Rams Park about the possibility of re-signing center Scott Wells at a reduced rate. But Wells is 34 and might want to call it a career. And he was slowed by injury throughout his three seasons here.

Tackle Jake Long? He initially considered retiring after suffering another knee injury last season, a season-ender in Game 7. But the word is he wants to return to the NFL, although it’s uncertain the subject even has come up at Rams Park.

It would have to be at a reduced rate and could possibly be at a different position — such as right tackle or guard. Even if the Rams decided to make another run at him, would he come back under those terms — less money, new spot?

Somebody else with experience might crop up in the coming weeks or months, but it’s hard to bank on that.

So what you see could be what you get on the Rams’ current offensive line. After drafting four O-linemen Friday and Saturday, they have 13 on their offseason roster. That’s not including any undrafted rookies the team might sign, but already enough to get the Rams through training camp.

From a mental standpoint, playing in the NFL is like getting your Ph.D in football. Even on the offensive line, it normally takes the smartest, most studious player to grasp the schemes, protections and proper blocking angles quickly.

If Havenstein or Brown has to start right away, there undoubtedly would be bumps along the way because of the adjustment process. Remember, No. 2 overall pick Robinson was held out of the first four games in 2014 for that very reason.

At right guard, the veteran Reynolds (27 NFL starts) could begin the year as the starter while Brown gets some grooming.

Reynolds, a free-agent pickup from Detroit, is a scrapper with a reputation for having his teammates’ back on the field, and trying to get that extra block downfield. But ideally, he’s a third guard — a swing player who also can help at tackle if needed.

If it all falls apart up front, the Rams will regret the fact that they didn’t aggressively pursue veteran help in free agency.

Along those same lines, taking a running back with the 10th the pick of the draft and waiting until No. 57 to draft an offensive lineman might blow up in their faces as well. A healthy Gurley might indeed be a special back, or what general manager Les Snead called a “once-in-a-while” kind of back.

He also might have been the vaunted “best player available” on the board at the time. That probably wasn’t the case for Havenstein and Brown. Both could turn out to be effective players and long-term starters, but at first glance they appear to be over-drafted. In other words, taken a little higher than their value.

Havenstein, for example, was the eighth tackle selected (the seventh if you consider Iowa’s Brandon Scherff an NFL guard). The talent available at the position dropped considerably after Havenstein’s selection — he might have been the last tackle drafted with genuine potential to start on day one as a rookie.

A college tackle, Brown projects as an NFL guard, and most pre-draft projections had him going in the Round 4-5 area. He’s a wide-body mauler type with 40 games of college starting experience at Louisville, and obviously the Rams had a higher opinion as they took him early in Round 3.

We’ll find out soon enough if the Rams’ assessment was right. But strictly in terms of being a prospect entering the league, Brown is no Laken Tomlinson — the Duke player considered the best true guard prospect. Similarly, Havenstein is no Andrus Peat, the Stanford project considered the best left tackle prospect in the draft.

Three years from now, those draft ratings might seem ridiculous. But for now, Gurley better be plenty good. And plenty good right away. Because in an already-stacked backfield, he looks like a luxury pick right now.

For those reasons, our instant grade on the Rams’ draft class of 2015 is C+.
 

junkman

Farewell to all!
Joined
Jun 3, 2014
Messages
822
Name
junkman
That probably wasn’t the case for Havenstein and Brown. Both could turn out to be effective players and long-term starters, but at first glance they appear to be over-drafted. In other words, taken a little higher than their value.

Havenstein, for example, was the eighth tackle selected (the seventh if you consider Iowa’s Brandon Scherff an NFL guard). The talent available at the position dropped considerably after Havenstein’s selection — he might have been the last tackle drafted with genuine potential to start on day one as a rookie.

I know Jim Thomas is trying to be balanced a non-homer in his writing, but I'm getting kinda tired of the "over-drafted" criticism. It's plainly obvious that the Rams are loading up on a particular type of OL, big road grading types, where the Internet draft boards mostly grade against the arbitrary standard of how the guy would do as an LT in a pass heavy offense.

1) there's a big difference between what you ask a RT to do vs what a LT to do. RTs are chosen much more for their run blocking rather than pass blocking. JT knows that.

2) The Rams are NOT going to have a pass happy offense. Bludgeoning runs. Play action fakes. Quick passes with mostly 3 step drops with the occasional 5 step drop (no 7s). Extra protection and release valves. Minimize mistakes. Win the field position battle. Trust the defense. Again, Fisher was clear on his approach.

3) If the Rams picked OL that did not excel in the run game, that'd be missing the point, wouldn't it? Did the Rams miss out on drafting OL who were better for the scheme they are running?

For JT to continue to ignore the scheme and criticize on other people's arbitrary standard is lazy journalism at best and intentionally obtuse at worst.

There's better journalistic integrity in spending the time trying to explain what the Rams did within the context of what they are trying to do.
 

Memphis Ram

Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
7,352
And the crazy part junkman is that some will go right along with him as if all these guys fit all of the schemes being run. Over the weekend, I watched guys upset because the team passed on guys that were clearly better fits in a zone blocking scheme vs. a power run scheme. Or when they didn't get guys who were better served playing LT when the Rams already have one. All because of those arbitrary media draftnik ratings.

Brown may not be viewed to be as good of a prospect as Laken Tomlinson as a OG prospect because he was deemed good enough to play OT by his college team. Of course, IMO, a kid capable of playing both is the better prospect, but that's just me.

BTW, while perhaps very minor, Tomlinson desire to be a doctor concerned me a little bit. Sure, I know that these guys only play this game for a short period of time, but I sure would have liked to hear him express a more immediate football goal in his interviews.

And if the Rams questioned Peat's toughness, like I've read that some have questioned, there's no way he fits a Jeff Fisher coached team.

Oh well. Time will tell.
 

551staaa

Unsubstantiated Reality
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
443
Yeah, I'm pretty tired of the "over-drafted" talk. If I need a big, road-grading right tackle, but someone has a board that says there are seven "higher ranked" players, including DE, TE, CB, etc., then I overdraft the big, road-grading right tackle? Besides, when did any of these "draft experts" come back three years later and re-grade their draft boards based on actual NFL performance?
 

OC--LeftCoast

Agent Provocateur
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
3,707
Name
Greg
For JT to continue to ignore the scheme and criticize on other people's arbitrary standard is lazy journalism at best and intentionally obtuse at worst.

Son, didn't that word once get you 30 days in the hole?

:D Now if I could just change my pic to that Warden...
 

LazyWinker

Pro Bowler
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
1,662
Name
Paul
Yeah, I'm pretty tired of the "over-drafted" talk. If I need a big, road-grading right tackle, but someone has a board that says there are seven "higher ranked" players, including DE, TE, CB, etc., then I overdraft the big, road-grading right tackle? Besides, when did any of these "draft experts" come back three years later and re-grade their draft boards based on actual NFL performance?
I bet every team "over-drafted" one or two or more guys this draft. This draft was different from most because two teams could have vastly different grades for the same player.
 

Alan

Legend
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
9,766
junkman with a very narrow focus:
I know Jim Thomas is trying to be balanced a non-homer in his writing, but I'm getting kinda tired of the "over-drafted" criticism. It's plainly obvious that the Rams are loading up on a particular type of OL, big road grading types, where the Internet draft boards mostly grade against the arbitrary standard of how the guy would do as an LT in a pass heavy offense.

1) there's a big difference between what you ask a RT to do vs what a LT to do. RTs are chosen much more for their run blocking rather than pass blocking. JT knows that.

2) The Rams are NOT going to have a pass happy offense. Bludgeoning runs. Play action fakes. Quick passes with mostly 3 step drops with the occasional 5 step drop (no 7s). Extra protection and release valves. Minimize mistakes. Win the field position battle. Trust the defense. Again, Fisher was clear on his approach.

3) If the Rams picked OL that did not excel in the run game, that'd be missing the point, wouldn't it? Did the Rams miss out on drafting OL who were better for the scheme they are running?

For JT to continue to ignore the scheme and criticize on other people's arbitrary standard is lazy journalism at best and intentionally obtuse at worst.

There's better journalistic integrity in spending the time trying to explain what the Rams did within the context of what they are trying to do.
A couple of things here:

First of all, this isn't just JT making comments like this. Most of the Rams/NFC West dedicated reporters are saying the same thing. Nick Wagoner just made the same type of comments as JT did here but was even more sceptical. Commenting about the reporter instead of what he's reporting adds nothing to the discussion of this issue IMO. So rather than continue to talk about the reporter I'll address what JT and you are saying about concerning this issue.

1) There is no longer that glaring difference between a LT and a RT in the NFL IMO. The difference is only in degree and potential damge to your QB that can result from a botched assignment. Yes, the LT still usually plays against the other teams best edge rusher but with the huge focus on getting to the passer teams are now making a real concerted effort to have an equally effect pass rush from the left side too. You'll always have your best pass block defender at LT because of the potential damage a blind side hit can can inflict upon your QB but that's becoming more and more the only real difference between the two positions IMO. With much less reliance upon the run you need a RT who can pass block very effectively almost as much as you need him to run block very effectively. That is trending more in that direction every year IMO.

2) The Rams will need to be able to field a "pass effective" offense when they get behind or they will never be successful. So while we might concentrate on the run more than other teams, we need to be very effective in our passing game too. We've all seen what happens when their passing game is an after thought and the defenses put 12 in the box.

3) In my mind you're setting the table incorrectly. What I would say is that if the Rams picked OL that can't run block effectively and pass block effectively no scheme will be very effective in the long run. Since you seem to be biased against anything that JT says I'll paraphrase some of what Nick Wagoner said about this issue. In the past 15 years or so only three teams have won the big one without a very good passing attack and are those the odds you want to try and overcome? Can a run centric offense be very effective in today's NFL? The jury is still out.
 
Last edited:

Akrasian

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
4,936
Every team grades for how a player fits into their system. You have to do it that way - it makes no sense to draft somebody who is only good at zone blocking schemes if you are running a power blocking scheme, for instance.

The other thing in terms of over-drafting - there doesn't always seem to be a recognition of the margin of error in any analysis. A player ranked 5.4 is within the margin of error of someone ranked 5.3 or even a bit lower, for instance - merely because we just cannot get perfect information. So if one fits the scheme and needs, then you take that guy, even if he's lower.

The other t hing is that teams may have an intimation that a player is being looked at by a team or teams drafting after them. From that they may decide it's not worth the risk to delay drafting that player if they really want him.

Supposedly, btw, the Rams were looking to trade down a few more spots in the second, but ultimately decided that the Titans would take their guy so stayed, and got the RT they wanted. Not an overdraft, a necessary move to get a guy who may be starting THIS year and hopefully years to come.
 

Alan

Legend
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
9,766
Akrasian with this:
Supposedly, btw, the Rams were looking to trade down a few more spots in the second, but ultimately decided that the Titans would take their guy so stayed, and got the RT they wanted. Not an overdraft, a necessary move to get a guy who may be starting THIS year and hopefully years to come.
I think the key here is whether their assessment of Havenstein's talent is correct or not. If he turns out to be a JB clone they will have, in retrospect, over drafted him and the majority of talent evaluators who thought he wasn't a second round talent will have been correct. If Snisher saw something in him that everyone else missed and he's our RT for the next 10 years the story will be completely different.
 

Akrasian

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
4,936
I think the key here is whether their assessment of Havenstein's talent is correct or not. If he turns out to be a JB clone they will have, in retrospect, over drafted him and the majority of talent evaluators who thought he wasn't a second round talent will have been correct. If Snisher saw something in him that everyone else missed and he's our RT for the next 10 years the story will be completely different.

True Dat - though if they just drafted a guy who sucks overdrafting is the least of the problems going on.
 

Alan

Legend
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
9,766
Akrasian with words of wisdom:
if they just drafted a guy who sucks overdrafting is the least of the problems going on.
Yep.

If you go against the consensus you had better be right or you start slipping into Al Davis territory.
 

drasconis

Starter
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
810
Name
JA
From my view the "overdraft" tag has a two levels to it: 1) is what is the players ceiling/potential and 2)how far from either hitting that ceiling or reaching acceptable skill levels is the player. My trouble is that when I look at the players the Rams drafted at Oline it isn't their ceiling that worries me so much as their ability to get to a starting level of play. I also worry aobut stacking these guys at the same time. It is one thing to have "a" rookie on the line, the veterans on either side can correct/help that single player, they better know what to do if he blows an assignement for instance. Multiple rookies means erros are more likley to multiply or compound on each other. I look at the drafted guys and feel like they would be fine picks if you planned on them being backups the first year and learning, but these guys look to be started.
 

kurtfaulk

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Sep 7, 2011
Messages
16,602
Can a run centric offense be very effective in today's NFL? The jury is still out.

the seagulls would have won the last two superbowls if wittle wussel wilson could have thrown a simple slant pass in the clutch. he couldn't and hindsight says if they had stuck with the run they might have won again.

.
 

BonifayRam

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
13,435
Name
Vernon
I have been advised for many years now that NFL teams can find good starters in the mid to late rounds of the draft without having to use the top of the draft (1st & 2nd rounds) to accomplish it.

OK if that's true then then the Rams have FIVE non rookies ......
Barrett Jones 4th round 2013(Rams)
Garrett Reynolds 5th rd 2009(Falcons)
Brandon Washington 6th round 2012 (Eagles)
Demetrius Rhaney 7th round 2014(Rams)
Travis Bond 7th rd 2012(Vikings)

So if those who have been advising me here for yrs are right on this & we have five just waiting to secure a starting position. So whats the problem?o_O
 

ChrisW

Stating the obvious
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Messages
4,670
Havenstein is no Andrus Peat, the Stanford project considered the best left tackle prospect in the draft.

Well no shit, Jimmy. Havenstein is a true right tackle. No need to compare him to a LT prospect.
 

Alan

Legend
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
9,766
drasconis noticing the effect of ignoring issues until you're boxed into a corner:
From my view the "overdraft" tag has a two levels to it: 1) is what is the players ceiling/potential and 2)how far from either hitting that ceiling or reaching acceptable skill levels is the player. My trouble is that when I look at the players the Rams drafted at Oline it isn't their ceiling that worries me so much as their ability to get to a starting level of play. I also worry aobut stacking these guys at the same time. It is one thing to have "a" rookie on the line, the veterans on either side can correct/help that single player, they better know what to do if he blows an assignement for instance. Multiple rookies means erros are more likley to multiply or compound on each other. I look at the drafted guys and feel like they would be fine picks if you planned on them being backups the first year and learning, but these guys look to be started.
Being in the position of going into a draft needing 3 starters on the O-line and ignoring the need for a quality backup QB (something I was guilty of too) was the height of folly. It's probably going to require a big change in priorities at the top (Fisher) to eventually fix this problem. I'm not sure I think this is ever going to happen. I think he sort of realized that something drastic needed to happen but he fell prey to the "shiny new toy" syndrome and couldn't recover. Throwing bodies at it is probably all he can do at this point.
 

junkman

Farewell to all!
Joined
Jun 3, 2014
Messages
822
Name
junkman
Son, didn't that word once get you 30 days in the hole?

:D Now if I could just change my pic to that Warden...

True. But that time in the hole also gave me the conviction to get busy living, rather than get busy dying. Now, it's the leisurely life I'm living with my charter boat business down in Zihuatanejo that lets me do Rams blogging all day. ;)
 

Alan

Legend
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
9,766
kurtfaulk with this:
the seagulls would have won the last two superbowls if wittle wussel wilson could have thrown a simple slant pass in the clutch. he couldn't and hindsight says if they had stuck with the run they might have won again.
Thus Clayton's remark concerning teams increased interest in power running schemes.

As Nick Wagoner said, 3 teams have bucked the odds but do you want to bet your house trying to buck the odds? Not only do you need an awesome rushing attack, not an easy thing to obtain, you also need an awesome defense (a much much harder thing to obtain) because you can't afford to get too far behind in a game. You can't win many high scoring games without a very good passing attack.

Also, that was just a stupid call regardless of what offensive scheme you run.
 

Angry Ram

Captain RAmerica Original Rammer
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
18,000
Yeah, I'm pretty tired of the "over-drafted" talk. If I need a big, road-grading right tackle, but someone has a board that says there are seven "higher ranked" players, including DE, TE, CB, etc., then I overdraft the big, road-grading right tackle? Besides, when did any of these "draft experts" come back three years later and re-grade their draft boards based on actual NFL performance?

They do it all the time with those stupid draft do-overs. The latest one, for example had EJ Gaines picked in the 1st round.

Could you imagine the reaction if a team actually did that?
 

jsimcox

Pro Bowler
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
1,378
Name
Jamie
There has been some organizational conjecture at Rams Park about the possibility of re-signing center Scott Wells at a reduced rate. But Wells is 34 and might want to call it a career. And he was slowed by injury throughout his three seasons here.
the-office-14.gif
 
Last edited: