Rams' Lamarcus Joyner merits major NFL discipline for illegal shot/ESPN

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OldSchool

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I've decided to embrace the hate. Screw it the pitch fork wielding tinfoil hat wearing idiots wanna claim this is proof of bounty gate 2.0 are so delusional that nothing will satisfy them. From now on I'll just ask how much they think he should be rewarded for the hit and leave it at that.
 

Raptorman

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This crap about him being disciplined is too much. He made a play, hit the QB late and knocked him out. It wasn't intentional, wasn't malicious, just lousy timing. Fine him like they are going to and move on already. Do Do Occurs.

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
 

Billy Baroo

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Per ESPN: No suspension for Joyner. Penalty still possible. Bridgewater likely to play Sunday.
 

OldSchool

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This crap about him being disciplined is too much. He made a play, hit the QB late and knocked him out. It wasn't intentional, wasn't malicious, just lousy timing. Fine him like they are going to and move on already. Do Do Occurs.

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
Think this is one of two reasonable posts on the play in multiple sites.

Still amazes me that this isn't getting talked about

http://uproxx.com/sports/2015/11/von-miller-kneeling-on-throat/
 

VegasRam

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ve-ge-tar-i-an
Old Indian word for lousy hunter.


They play dirty.
Team speak for "we're afraid of them".
 

Mojo Ram

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Minnesota Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater knew the drill when he pulled the ball down to run early in the fourth quarter on Sunday versus the St. Louis Rams. All quarterbacks do. Pick up the first down there, add a couple of rushing yards to the stat column and then slide, dive, whatever. Just get the yardage, get down and live to see the next play.

But Bridgewater still paid for it. And the reality is quarterbacks often will in a league where the QB is the ultimate target, regardless of who is coaching the defense.

The hit? Yeah, it looked nasty. A vicious shot from Rams defensive back Lamarcus Joyner, delivered right as Bridgewater was sliding, or giving himself up. Put that thing in slow motion and you can see the quarterback's head snap down on the turf. It knocked him right out of the game. He was finished.

Immediately after the hit, there was talk of another Gregg Williams' coached defense intentionally targeting players. That hit from Joyner was dirty, right? I get it. The Bountygate tales were going to surface given Williams' past history in the league. I've been on a defense with Williams running the show, and I've seen the bounties.

But before we go pin the hit on Williams, a coach I should admit I respect as much as any I've played for, let's just be honest about the situation from an on-field standpoint.

Williams is a master motivator, a true teacher, a veteran coach who gets the most out of his guys. And his defenses do push the envelope. They walk the line. Always. But to try and pair that with the Joyner hit? Nah. That's a reach. Bridgewater wasn't put on some pregame list with dollar signs next to his name in the program. That's a lazy narrative, a reach to cover up the real story in the NFL. The truth is, if we didn't know what we do about Williams from Bountygate, we wouldn't be able to discern the intent of his defenses from any other team.


This is a fact: Quarterbacks are always targeted, regardless of who is running the defense that day. Take them out, within or on the edge of the rules, and your chances of winning increase dramatically.

Plays like this are easy to critique from the couch or even in the stands. You see a quarterback go down, especially when the head is involved, and the outrage floods social media. Everyone knows the ramifications of concussions, and everyone is an expert, just waiting to throw out opinions, to gain a voice on a hit that doesn't mesh with their standards of clean, ethical play.

When Bridgewater started to slide, everything went wrong. It was the imperfect combination of NFL speed and a QB in the open field. If you want to say Joyner was intentionally trying to bounce Bridgewater's head off the turf like a basketball, then go with it. I probably won't change your mind, and that's fine. But I just don't believe he was looking to make contact with the helmet of the quarterback. That wasn't his plan when he broke downhill and prepared himself to deliver the hit. The rest? Well, it happens when angles change at the last second.

Yes, it was a brutal hit. But put yourself in the shoes of Joyner, or any defender in the NFL that sees the quarterback tuck that ball to run. I've been there, and regardless of who your coach is, your mindset is clear: That's fresh meat in the open field. If you have a shot -- a legitimate shot -- then you drop your pads and put it on him. Make it physical, too. That's not meathead stuff here, it's just football the way you've been trained to play. And while slow motion tells you one thing, in the pros, it happens so fast, like lightning, that defenders just can't pull off in time to save a guy.

I've watched the hit from Joyner over and over. And I've been in those situations as a player. There was an opportunity there for Joyner -- leading with his shoulder -- to put Bridgewater down, to let him know that running the ball against his defense wasn't the best idea going forward. "Next time," Joyner is thinking, "just hang in the pocket and make the throw, or we will take you out." That's the message you are trying to send as a defensive player.

Nice? No, it's not. But that's the reality of the NFL.

ESPN.com NFL analyst Matt Bowen played seven seasons in the NFL.
^ This

And hey Teddy....
 

Mojo Ram

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Some people aren't getting it.

It's an illegal hit, it's against the rules. He'd be getting a fine and a penalty even if Bridgewater didn't get hurt. The reason it's illegal is because during a slide a player can't really protect themselves.

He launched and led with his elbow. He knows better.
I know. He deserves a penalty and a fine. What he(and Fisher & Williams) don't deserve is this fan & media outcry of Bountygate part Deux, and throwing the terms dirty and malicious intent around. The only reason we're getting all that bullshit is because Teddy got injured on a play that happens every Sunday, and Fisher/Williams are an easy target. If Teddy walks away from that hit no one cares.
 

kurtfaulk

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Here's the problem with this QB slide business. It's designed to protect a player who is CLEARLY giving himself up on a play. That's what it's for.

The problem comes in when certain QB's try and get the most out of a play (go the extra mile to get the 1st for example)... and then drop to slide at the last minute to try and gain protection from the defender. Certain QBs do this all the time... the Umpa Loompa in Seadderall comes to mind and so do many "running" QBs. They slide way too late in the process... they are not CLEARLY giving up on the play. How many times have we seen some of these running QBs give the impression that they are about to slide, and then take off for more yards. I know I've seen it. Defenders have to be given a clear sign and time to pull up.

Here's my take on what I think happened on the Teddy B / Joyner play yesterday.... Teddy was wanting to make sure he got the first down on the run. He looked at the defender coming at him and thought, this Joyner dude doesn't look very big at all,,, I think I can take him. Teddy started feeling bullet proof from his eyeball test on Joyner. He was getting close to the 1st,,, so rather than CLEARLY slide so that the defender could pull up... Teddy took the extra mile on the play and went into his slide too late for Joyner to pull up completely. You can't slide late in the process and expect to be given complete protection. These plays happen very very fast... in a second or two at most.

I can't believe that that Melon-Head Teddy can even be concussed. His head/helmet look abnormally large. Hell he looks like he's wearing one of the Don Beebe helmets and his crap is just normal I think. Maybe he has one of those helmets I saw someone here design for Jason Smith back a few years ago LOL. Seems like that giant dome should have bounced off that turf with no ill effects to Teddy... surprising really :heh:

That's a good theory except teddy got the 1st down after about 3 steps. He's just a greedy sob that wanted every yard he could get. Think he will go down earlier next time?

.
 

Selassie I

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That's a good theory except teddy got the 1st down after about 3 steps. He's just a greedy sob that wanted every yard he could get. Think he will go down earlier next time?

.


Hahahahaha

I bet he will.... especially if he sees that little guy Joyner headed his way. Ha
 

kurtfaulk

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Rams' Lamarcus Joyner merits major NFL discipline for illegal shot
By Kevin Seifert

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/p...-merits-major-nfl-discipline-for-illegal-shot

The NFL has a thick rulebook and a detailed fine schedule, making it difficult to imagine how both won't be used to issue a significant penalty this week to St. Louis Rams defensive back Lamarcus Joyner.

Joyner, of course, delivered the illegal shot that knocked Minnesota Vikings quarterback Teddy Bridgewater unconscious Sunday at TCF Bank Stadium. I was shocked at how divided social media was on the play, but there seems no doubt to me that Joyner violated NFL rules protecting players who slide, and his hit caused Bridgewater's concussion.

Depending on how the NFL classifies the infraction, Joyner will be fined at least $8,681, but likely more. If Bridgewater is deemed to have been a "defenseless player," a term that seems created for the position he was in, Joyner's minimum fine will be $23,152. Because he has no known history of such hits, Joyner is unlikely to be suspended.

Teddy Bridgewater
Teddy Bridgewater left Sunday's game with a concussion after a hit from Lamarcus Joyner.

Let's take a closer look at the play. Bridgewater scrambled 5 yards for a first down and then initiated a feet-first slide with 13 minutes, 18 seconds remaining in the game. Joyner dove at him with his left forearm arched at a 90-degree angle. I received multiple tweets from those who thought Joyner barely made contact, but the replay shows his upper left arm hit Bridgewater's facemask, causing the helmet to bounce violently off the turf.

Bridgewater was diagnosed with a concussion and must pass through the league's mandatory concussion protocol in order to be eligible to play in the Vikings' game Sunday at the Oakland Raiders.

Referee Ronald Torbert penalized Joyner 15 yards for unnecessary roughness, and the rules in this area seem clear. According to Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1 (d)(1), "A defender must pull up when a runner begins a feet-first slide." The rule goes on to note that contact is legal if a runner has "already committed himself and the contact is unavoidable." But even in those cases, the rule notes, it is a penalty if "the defender commits some other act, such as helmet-to-helmet contact or by driving his forearm or shoulder into the head or neck area of the runner."

Joyner told reporters after the game that he had already "launched" when Bridgewater started sliding, a debatable contention. But even if that were the case, the nature of the ensuing contact not only was illegal but also destroyed the precise tenet of the NFL's campaign to protect quarterbacks who are willing to surrender further yardage in order to avoid big hits.

Whether Joyner intended to hurt Bridgewater is irrelevant, although there was little doubt what Vikings coach Mike Zimmer thought of it. Zimmer noted the "history" of Rams defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, whose theatrics were a major reason the NFL pursued the "Bountygate" investigation against the New Orleans Saints in 2012. At the time, it was reported that Williams encouraged head shots that knocked quarterbacks from the game, an edict that came to be symbolized by a recording in which he told players: "Kill the head, the body will die."

Independent of whatever philosophies Williams might preach, and regardless of intent, Joyner made a big mistake. He delivered avoidable contact to the head of a player no longer trying to ward it off, causing an injury the NFL wants to prevent at every turn. There is no defending or explaining it, and the league must use its array of disciplinary options to address the infraction.

hey kevin seifert, are you listening?




.
 

Oldgeek

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Fisher and GW are an easy target for lazy journalist.
 

Oldgeek

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Fisher and GW are an easy target for lazy reporters. It was a only a problem because he knock him the fuck out!
 

Selassie I

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I'm sending this out to that giant Melon-Headed Teddy B...




No I'm done with this shit. On to the bears.
 

Raptorman

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Their forearm to the throat of our QB, was so much more malicious, and avoidable/contemplated.
Let me paraphrase one of your fellow posters. "If QB's don't want to get hit, they should throw the ball sooner." If I remember correctly, Foles was out of the pocket and trying to extend the play. And if I am not mistaken, Joseph was called for it.
 

RamFan503

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@LesBaker I would agree that Joyner is going to get fined and in the context of the current NFL, it should be expected. The problem I have is that it was a very poorly timed slide and even - dare I say - planned to draw a flag. The NFL walked on a very shaky bridge when they invented the slide rule. The rule was intended to protect QBs that were obviously going to give up yards for the sake of not being hit. The QB is obligated (or should be) in keeping with the rule, to go down BEFORE the defender is getting ready to launch. If the QB insists on getting all the yards he can, he puts himself at risk of being hit. Once the defender even prepares to launch, it is too late. At minimum that defender is going to hit the QB in some fashion. The problem is that we are seeing more and more QBs use the late slide to try to add 15 yards to the play. I'm sure Teddy never thought he'd get knocked out for his trying to take advantage of the rule but IMO he was doing exactly that - trying to take advantage of the rule.

View: https://youtu.be/22F_qQBIvrw


If you watch it again, you will see Teddy not even finish getting into his slide before Joyner hits him. If he slides at the right time, Joyner flies right over the top. I also see Joyner right at the last second pull up on the hit. Sure he is coming up to lay the wood. but if you watch the last replay angle, you see him lift his arm and roll over the play. You want to avoid that? Do like most QBs do and slide before the defender is taking his last, launching step toward you. Watch that video and see how fast Joyner is heading toward Teddy and then tell me he could stop or knew Teddy wasn't going to try to juke him at the last second. If he does that, everyone is laughing about how he fooled Joyner and ran for another ten yards. When Teddy realizes Joyner is going to throttle him, he only THEN decides to try to get down fast.

Teddy gambled. He got hurt. Joyner will likely get fined. It's another way the NFL is ruining the game.