Quarterbacks

[jrry32]

Unless they bring in a veteran Keenum or Foles is our QB next year, as Mannion is learning nothing sitting on the bench and a draft pick will be in the same boat as Mannion unless they want to waste another season playing a developmental QB.

I'll take that over wasting a season playing the ineffective QBs that ruined this year.

Especially considering the majority of rookie QBs that have started over the past 5 years have posted better numbers than the Foles/Keenum combo have this year.

 

[FRO]

I'll take that over wasting a season playing the ineffective QBs that ruined this year.

Especially considering the majority of rookie QBs that have started over the past 5 years have posted better numbers than the Foles/Keenum combo have this year.

Austin Davis and Shaun Hill posted better numbers last year.

I think we will finish 7-9. That puts us out of the running for Lynch or Goff and it puts us in a terrible position to trade up. It's going to be really difficult to upgrade the QB position this offseason. Unless the Chargers decide to blow it up and Rivers becomes available or you clear a bunch of cap room and trade valuable assets for Brees, there won't be good veteran options.

Another thing that concerns me is the fact Fisher and Snead were content with our WRs the past 2 years. I believe they overvalue Austin's ability as a receiver. He is a nice play maker, but he isn't a good receiver yet. The receiver position has to get fixed as well as the QB position, then we have to hope the only thing the line needs is maturity. I really want to see winning football, but it's going to be difficult to fix the offense.

 

[Sleepy1711]

Why can't Case be our Russell?

I mean he can scramble. Looks accurate. Give the kid a chance! Maybe if Case started the season we'd be looking at the playoffs?

Or maybe he could just flat out sucks, but who knows? I hope he does well the next two games.

 

[fearsomefour]

You've got too many cooks in the kitchen in that scenario. You're not going to get 5 QBs enough reps. Which likely means Sims and Keenum are the odd men out.

Could be.
Daniel has done nothing, a rookie is a crap shoot and we don't even know what management thinks of Mannion.
Chase Daniel could be compared to Brees I suppose, due to his height and lack of big arm.
Daniel can do some things well, so, I am not opposed to him, but, given his lack of playing history I would not consider him a lock as an upgrade.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one I think.

 

[FRO]

Why can't Case be our Russell?

I mean he can scramble. Looks accurate. Give the kid a chance! Maybe if Case started the season we'd be looking at the playoffs?

Or maybe he could just flat out sucks, but who knows? I hope he does well the next two games.

Because he has no where near the arm talent or scrambling talent. Keenum is a mediocre backup.

 

[fearsomefour]

Because he has no where near the arm talent or scrambling talent. Keenum is a mediocre backup.

The comparison game is always hard.
I think Keenum could be a very good back up.

 

[jrry32]

Why can't Case be our Russell?

I mean he can scramble. Looks accurate. Give the kid a chance! Maybe if Case started the season we'd be looking at the playoffs?

Or maybe he could just flat out sucks, but who knows? I hope he does well the next two games.

Because he's not Russell Wilson. It's just not even remotely close. Russell Wilson and Case Keenum were in the same draft. Look at what Russell Wilson has done to this point. If Case were Russell, he'd have shown it by now.

And frankly, I have to disagree that he looks accurate.

Part of me hopes he does well, part of me hopes he bombs. Why? Because I'm worried if he does well, people (including Fisher) will think he's worth sticking with. And I think that will be a mistake. Plus, if he does well, it hurts our draft position. But I also hope he'll do well because I like watching the Rams win.

Could be.
Daniel has done nothing, a rookie is a crap shoot and we don't even know what management thinks of Mannion.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one I think.

Yep. It's all a crap shoot. Which is why you hedge your bets rather than going for broke. Taking a chance on a backup that's shown ability in limited time is a crap shoot, 1st/2nd round QBs are a crap shoot, and Mannion is a crap shoot. That's why you go with all three.

Why only three? Because it's difficult enough getting 3 QBs reps. You can't get 5 QBs reps. It's simply the nature of the beast. You may not agree with the three I chose but I think you have to narrow it down to three. You can add a 4th as a camp arm but that 4th guy is going to get very little in the way of reps.

 

[blackbart]

Check his film out. Underrated player. I think he's likely going to be the best veteran on the market.

He hasn't been anything and won't been anything ever in the NFL. He has had 2 starts in 6 years, now THAT is a career back up. Why does he get any consideration? Because he's from Missouri?

 

[fearsomefour]

Because he's not Russell Wilson. It's just not even remotely close. Russell Wilson and Case Keenum were in the same draft. Look at what Russell Wilson has done to this point. If Case were Russell, he'd have shown it by now.

And frankly, I have to disagree that he looks accurate.

Part of me hopes he does well, part of me hopes he bombs. Why? Because I'm worried if he does well, people (including Fisher) will think he's worth sticking with. And I think that will be a mistake. Plus, if he does well, it hurts our draft position. But I also hope he'll do well because I like watching the Rams win.



Yep. It's all a crap shoot. Which is why you hedge your bets rather than going for broke. Taking a chance on a backup that's shown ability in limited time is a crap shoot, 1st/2nd round QBs are a crap shoot, and Mannion is a crap shoot. That's why you go with all three.

Why only three? Because it's difficult enough getting 3 QBs reps. You can't get 5 QBs reps. It's simply the nature of the beast. You may not agree with the three I chose but I think you have to narrow it down to three. You can add a 4th as a camp arm but that 4th guy is going to get very little in the way of reps.

I can buy what you're saying about reps. Bring in another guy or two to compete for a practice squad spot or the third spot, I still that is doable. If four is the limit reasonably, thats fine with me too.
Mannion could sort of be the key to this offseason. If the coaches really believe he is the long term guy do they invest a first round pick in a QB? I would guess not. So, it is stop gap city until he is ready. If they don't buy into him that changes the draft and everything else.
Keenum and Daniel are fairly similar to me. Same size basically, both lack some arm strength. Daniel is more athletic I think. So, Daniel is two years older with about 1/5 of the NFL pass attempts as Keenum. Of course, this could well be nothing more than him being places with stable QB situations. The sample size just isn't big enough to say that he is going to be a stud. For every Trent Green that rides the bench and moves teams and has a good career there are probably 10 Steve Walshs.
It would be fine with me if Daniel, Keenum and Mannion were here without drafting a QB. This is under the condition that the FO is buying into Mannion of course.

 

[jrry32]

I can buy what you're saying about reps. Bring in another guy or two to compete for a practice squad spot or the third spot, I still that is doable. If four is the limit reasonably, thats fine with me too.
Mannion could sort of be the key to this offseason. If the coaches really believe he is the long term guy do they invest a first round pick in a QB? I would guess not. So, it is stop gap city until he is ready. If they don't buy into him that changes the draft and everything else.
Keenum and Daniel are fairly similar to me. Same size basically, both lack some arm strength. Daniel is more athletic I think. So, Daniel is two years older with about 1/5 of the NFL pass attempts as Keenum. Of course, this could well be nothing more than him being places with stable QB situations. The sample size just isn't big enough to say that he is going to be a stud. For every Trent Green that rides the bench and moves teams and has a good career there are probably 10 Steve Walshs.
It would be fine with me if Daniel, Keenum and Mannion were here without drafting a QB. This is under the condition that the FO is buying into Mannion of course.

I just can't buy into Mannion with so little film. I think we need to draft a QB.

As for Keenum and Daniel, Daniel is better in some key areas...namely accuracy, mental acuity (especially processing speed), and poise under pressure.

He hasn't been anything and won't been anything ever in the NFL. He has had 2 starts in 6 years, now THAT is a career back up. Why does he get any consideration? Because he's from Missouri?

Yes. Because Daniel is from Missouri. As a person who will have degrees from the University of South Carolina and the University of Florida, I am hyping up Chase Daniel because he played for Missouri and I am secretly a Missouri fan.

Why does he get consideration? Turn on the tape.

You act like him having 2 starts in 6 years proves he's not ever going to be a starter. Kurt Warner didn't have a single NFL start until his 6th year. Rich Gannon was a journeyman that bounced around the NFL until he found his home in Oakland in his 12th year in the NFL. Trent Green didn't start his first game until his 6th year in the NFL. Tyrod Taylor signed with the Bills this off-season after never starting a game during his first four years in the NFL. He's #5 in the NFL in passer rating this year. Jeff Garcia was in Canada for 5 years before starting for the 49ers in his 6th year.

Let's not act like we've never seen a player flourish after not getting an opportunity to start in the NFL during his first few years in the league. Daniel was behind Drew Brees in New Orleans. He's been behind Alex Smith in Kansas City. Wasn't much of an opportunity for him.

Is it a long shot? Sure. The odds of him being Kurt Warner are astronomical. But I've watched film of him. I see a skill-set that gives me confidence in his ability to get the job done. Still, I'm not recommending going all in on Daniel. Rather, I'm recommending going out and grabbing Daniel so we can avoid forcing a rookie into the starting lineup before he's ready. And if Daniel plays out of his mind, awesome. We can develop the rookie and play Daniel in the meantime.

 

[fearsomefour]

Is it a long shot? Sure. The odds of him being Kurt Warner are astronomical. But I've watched film of him. I see a skill-set that gives me confidence in his ability to get the job done. Still, I'm not recommending going all in on Daniel. Rather, I'm recommending going out and grabbing Daniel so we can avoid forcing a rookie into the starting lineup before he's ready. And if Daniel plays out of his mind, awesome. We can develop the rookie and play Daniel in the meantime.

I will try to go back and watch some film on him.
He is 29, so, who knows?
I agree 100% about not wanting to start, or be forced to start, a rookie QB.
He certainly may be up for it as I am sure he would like the opportunity to earn a starting job.
I also don't disagree about Keenum and his accuracy. It can come and go. Some times the completed passes are a little off too. One thing that makes him seem more accurate than what we saw from Foles is the ball tends to get out on time, or certainly closer to on time than what Foles was doing.

 

[jrry32]

In fact, I'll post a play that shows the attributes I saw in Chase Daniel that make me believe he'll be successful (coincidentally, it came against the Rams in the preseason this year):

View: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000521225/Conley-15-yard-touchdown-catch


I know, I know...preseason doesn't count. But you can't fake having certain attributes. The stats are irrelevant. The film is not. When you watch the replay, pause the play when Daniel begins his throwing motion and look where the WR is. And then start it and pause it again when the WR catches the ball. Look where the ball is thrown.

Daniel reads the defense and pre-snap and knows what the Rams are doing.(and yes, this is easier to do in the preseason) You can tell because when he drops back, he looks left to hold safety Cody Davis and linebacker Bryce Hager. This creates the window he throws into. As soon as he's ready to get the ball out, he resets, turns back right, and throws the WR open. The biggest thing to watch on this play is when he starts his throwing motion. The WR hasn't yet begun making his break and is behind the LB Lynch with LaMarcus Joyner over the top. He's covered. But since Daniel held Hager and Davis with his eyes, he knows there's a window to throw into. So rather than wait until Conley breaks and runs into the window, he anticipates Conley making his break and throws him open. Had he waited, he would have given Cody Davis time to recover and possibly put a hit on the WR. His timing on this play was absolutely perfect. And then there's the ball placement. LaMarcus Joyner actually had tight coverage. But Daniel put the ball out in front of the big WR (Conley) which kept Joyner from being able to make a play on the ball.

You can't fake what he did here. This is the sort of play that excites me. If I saw it in a college QB, I'd be hyping that kid to high heaven.(in fact, I did see it in a college kid...Connor Cook...and it's why I'm so high on him despite his inconsistent accuracy) There aren't a lot of QBs in the NFL that move coverage with their eyes, throw with anticipation, and throw guys open. The ones that do are typically the ones that end up being good starters. For example, Colin Kaepernick isn't a better QB because he processes things slowly and is a see it throw it QB. What I mean by "see it throw it" is that Kaepernick has to see the WR open before he throws it in most cases. Daniel is not a see it throw it QB. He throws with anticipation. He gets the ball out on time and anticipates where the WR will be coming out of his break. That's an incredibly important skill.

There's one more play from this preseason that I want to show you:

View: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000510663/Chase-Daniel-beautiful-33-yard-pass-to-Fred-Williams


Why this play? Because it shows another extremely important attribute that you can't fake...poise under pressure. There is a blitzer coming free off the edge. Daniel knows this. He also knows that he has a favorable 1-on-1 match-up due to this. How many times have we seen a Rams QB try to scramble away from the free rusher on a blitz or panic and take a sack? Watch what Daniels does here. Because this is another thing that separates good NFL QBs from bad ones. He knows the blitzer is coming but he doesn't panic. He steps into his throw and drives his hips through the throw despite knowing he's stepping towards the guy trying to take his head off. And look what happens, he delivers an absolute dime down the sideline that hits his WR in stride.

That takes guts. A lot of NFL QBs don't have the guts to do that. He's a tough kid that isn't afraid of being hit. And that's huge at the NFL level. Because NFL defenses will come after you if they see that weakness. If you're afraid of being hit, they will throw rusher after rusher at you because they know that a panicked QB makes bad decisions, inaccurate throws, and takes a lot of sacks.

Look, I'm not trying to claim Daniel is our savior. But I watched his 2 NFL starts along with a lot of preseason passes from the guy and he's got skills. Plus, he's actually a pretty mobile QB:

View: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000305753/Daniel-29-yard-run

That's from one of his two regular season starts. No preseason here.

I think he has the ability to be a serviceable starting QB for us. Which I think is a smart move when paired with a first round rookie QB. We don't have to start our rookie QB if he's not ready.

 

[-X-]

So let me get this straight. Starting 2 games over 6 years (Daniels) isn't an indictment of his worth, but starting 13 games over 4 years (Keenum) is? Because he threw a nice timing pass in preseason and got a decent contract?

I can make a rather lengthy video of some of Keenum's throws, and label them as special, but the bottom line is, there are just differing opinions on these guys from message board members (myself included) playing amateur scout and GM.

 

[jrry32]

So let me get this straight. Starting 2 games over 6 years (Daniels) isn't an indictment of his worth, but starting 13 games over 4 years (Keenum) is? Because he threw a nice timing pass in preseason and got a decent contract?

You're not getting anything straight. I'm going to stop now before I say something that gets me in trouble. From now on, I'll keep my thoughts and analysis to myself if it's going to be disrespected like this. This is a low blow.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

In fact, I'll post a play that shows the attributes I saw in Chase Daniel that make me believe he'll be successful (coincidentally, it came against the Rams in the preseason this year):

View: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000521225/Conley-15-yard-touchdown-catch


I know, I know...preseason doesn't count. But you can't fake having certain attributes. The stats are irrelevant. The film is not. When you watch the replay, pause the play when Daniel begins his throwing motion and look where the WR is. And then start it and pause it again when the WR catches the ball. Look where the ball is thrown.

Daniel reads the defense and pre-snap and knows what the Rams are doing.(and yes, this is easier to do in the preseason) You can tell because when he drops back, he looks left to hold safety Cody Davis and linebacker Bryce Hager. This creates the window he throws into. As soon as he's ready to get the ball out, he resets, turns back right, and throws the WR open. The biggest thing to watch on this play is when he starts his throwing motion. The WR hasn't yet begun making his break and is behind the LB Lynch with LaMarcus Joyner over the top. He's covered. But since Daniel held Hager and Davis with his eyes, he knows there's a window to throw into. So rather than wait until Conley breaks and runs into the window, he anticipates Conley making his break and throws him open. Had he waited, he would have given Cody Davis time to recover and possibly put a hit on the WR. His timing on this play was absolutely perfect. And then there's the ball placement. LaMarcus Joyner actually had tight coverage. But Daniel put the ball out in front of the big WR (Conley) which kept Joyner from being able to make a play on the ball.

You can't fake what he did here. This is the sort of play that excites me. If I saw it in a college QB, I'd be hyping that kid to high heaven.(in fact, I did see it in a college kid...Connor Cook...and it's why I'm so high on him despite his inconsistent accuracy) There aren't a lot of QBs in the NFL that move coverage with their eyes, throw with anticipation, and throw guys open. The ones that do are typically the ones that end up being good starters. For example, Colin Kaepernick isn't a better QB because he processes things slowly and is a see it throw it QB. What I mean by "see it throw it" is that Kaepernick has to see the WR open before he throws it in most cases. Daniel is not a see it throw it QB. He throws with anticipation. He gets the ball out on time and anticipates where the WR will be coming out of his break. That's an incredibly important skill.

There's one more play from this preseason that I want to show you:

View: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000510663/Chase-Daniel-beautiful-33-yard-pass-to-Fred-Williams


Why this play? Because it shows another extremely important attribute that you can't fake...poise under pressure. There is a blitzer coming free off the edge. Daniel knows this. He also knows that he has a favorable 1-on-1 match-up due to this. How many times have we seen a Rams QB try to scramble away from the free rusher on a blitz or panic and take a sack? Watch what Daniels does here. Because this is another thing that separates good NFL QBs from bad ones. He knows the blitzer is coming but he doesn't panic. He steps into his throw and drives his hips through the throw despite knowing he's stepping towards the guy trying to take his head off. And look what happens, he delivers an absolute dime down the sideline that hits his WR in stride.

That takes guts. A lot of NFL QBs don't have the guts to do that. He's a tough kid that isn't afraid of being hit. And that's huge at the NFL level. Because NFL defenses will come after you if they see that weakness. If you're afraid of being hit, they will throw rusher after rusher at you because they know that a panicked QB makes bad decisions, inaccurate throws, and takes a lot of sacks.

Look, I'm not trying to claim Daniel is our savior. But I watched his 2 NFL starts along with a lot of preseason passes from the guy and he's got skills. Plus, he's actually a pretty mobile QB:

View: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000305753/Daniel-29-yard-run

That's from one of his two regular season starts. No preseason here.

I think he has the ability to be a serviceable starting QB for us. Which I think is a smart move when paired with a first round rookie QB. We don't have to start our rookie QB if he's not ready.

That's some nice work there. Thanks - learned a few things
Look I like the Daniels kid, but right now I think we have something in Keenum as a starter. And I'm not the guy who chanted for TJ Rubley or Keith Null -- I'm not a fan of backups -- but can you break down exactly what Keenum is doing that leads you to think he stinks, cause I think he can play

 

[Athos]

I think the point is that Keenum has bounced around, couldn't stay around in his college city despite also being on a team that's QB purgatory with a solid Oline, and weapons like Andre before, Hopkins, and Foster. He bounced around the same two teams, Rams and Texans, for a reason.

And his accuracy is bad for his career.

I think the point being made is that Keenum has had ACTUaL opportunities to remain or become the starter and can't hold or win the job.

Daniel backed up a HOF level QB and learned from him.

Reid thought so highly of him he made him one of if not the most well paid backups.

And now he's backing up a solid Vet.

Yea he's unknown, but the qualities to like are there. Learning from one of the best. Accuracy, QB instincts and smarts, mobility, a good enough arm, and MU fans know, he's got fire in his belly to win and will take a hit. He's not gun shy.

I'd rather bank on Daniel, a 1st round rook, and Mannion than the same ole same ole of mediocrity where Keenum parlays a decent game or two into staying around such cases that we are stuck yet again with bad QB play.

No. Just no. Please stop.

It isn't as if @jrry32 is a sta hound. I'll believe it when he says he watches film.

I've seen Danie live and on TV. Always been cool in the pocket and under pressure. The things he did well in college are better now. And he's picked up skills like looking guys off.

None of QB jokers really look guys off.

 

[fearsomefour]

Looking off, seeing blitzes, throwing to windows and not creating pressure by always rolling out are great attributes of a pocket passer. I have said all along the teams needs a pocket passer to compliment the running game, not a QB who is going to look to run.
The real factor here may be how the powers that be perceive Mannion. This may be a little unsettling as the limited track record isn't great with QB development.
This next week in Seattle is a real test for the entire O....on the road vs a red hot motivated Seattle D could get ugly. It will be interesting to see.
As for playing arm chair GM, I think we all understand none of us are operating with all the information....that is what the discussion is about. Armchair GM is one of the funnest parts of fandom.

 

[blackbart]

I just can't buy into Mannion with so little film. I think we need to draft a QB.

As for Keenum and Daniel, Daniel is better in some key areas...namely accuracy, mental acuity (especially processing speed), and poise under pressure.



Yes. Because Daniel is from Missouri. As a person who will have degrees from the University of South Carolina and the University of Florida, I am hyping up Chase Daniel because he played for Missouri and I am secretly a Missouri fan.

Why does he get consideration? Turn on the tape.

You act like him having 2 starts in 6 years proves he's not ever going to be a starter. Kurt Warner didn't have a single NFL start until his 6th year. Rich Gannon was a journeyman that bounced around the NFL until he found his home in Oakland in his 12th year in the NFL. Trent Green didn't start his first game until his 6th year in the NFL. Tyrod Taylor signed with the Bills this off-season after never starting a game during his first four years in the NFL. He's #5 in the NFL in passer rating this year. Jeff Garcia was in Canada for 5 years before starting for the 49ers in his 6th year.

Let's not act like we've never seen a player flourish after not getting an opportunity to start in the NFL during his first few years in the league. Daniel was behind Drew Brees in New Orleans. He's been behind Alex Smith in Kansas City. Wasn't much of an opportunity for him.

Is it a long shot? Sure. The odds of him being Kurt Warner are astronomical. But I've watched film of him. I see a skill-set that gives me confidence in his ability to get the job done. Still, I'm not recommending going all in on Daniel. Rather, I'm recommending going out and grabbing Daniel so we can avoid forcing a rookie into the starting lineup before he's ready. And if Daniel plays out of his mind, awesome. We can develop the rookie and play Daniel in the meantime.

You're not the only Rams fan I have seen promoting him, I just never saw the reasoning.

What you are saying is do the same thing they have right now with Keenum and Mannion. Except replace them with two new guys who don't know the offense. I don't see any talent worth giving away the entire draft for coming out in 2016. It will take a trade up for any of the guys who might be as good as???? in two years.

I just don't see the Rams or anyone else doing that. They have time and money invested at the QB position. Hopefully they can trade Foles to get away from that contract and let Keenum and Mannion fight it out for the starting job next year. We've already seen Keenum improving as he has gotten more PT. This weekend in Seattle will be a huge test, he doesn't need to be great just not bad. Seattle is probably the toughest place he will ever be challenged there aren't many teams winning there. The next week in SF a more average road game will give him another chance at a winnable game.

If he goes 3-2 he should and likely will get a chance to win the starting job next year. Dump Foles and bring in Daniels sure competition is a good thing but I don't see it and I don't see them drafting another guy this year. There are too many needs at the top of the draft to wast a pick on another guy who compares to what they already have.

 

[dieterbrock]

How about we see how Keenum does against Seattle, yes?
Another game like last week and we may have something. Another game like Baltimore and its game, set and match

 

[Rams43]

I'm really not sure how one side goes to haters, and the other goes to lovers. I think most of us, are in the, he's better than Foles category. How is going to finish the season, and is he a viable guy to return, as a capable backup? I think the next couple games will help determine the last thing.

I don't think anybody is snowed over here, but as a guy that was calling for him, after Foles second start, I still have my mind open. I don't think he's a bum, or a savior. I want to see how he will do, against a good team, with having the luxury, of being able to prepare as the starter, a few games.

I have high standards for our next QB. Some of you are convinced he's not good enough, and some of us are not convinced, with the small amount of data that we have. I haven't seen that fatal flaw, yet. It won't take me long to find it, if it's there, but I'm open to him coming back, if he doesn't show me that in the next couple games, even if he comes back as one of our backups.

Maybe, we can see what happens???

What DR RAM just said.

I do believe he speaks for the silent and non agenda driven majority. Lol.