Number 2 Pick: Rams On The Clock

[V3]

I believe the Rams best chance to win is to put the best Oline possible in front of Bradford. Especially given the team's blueprint of running the football and playing strong defense.

If you're going with the run heavy offense, then spending a premium pick on a LT makes even less sense to me. I'm fine with building the O-line but I don't think you need to spend the #2 pick on it in order for it to perform well.

 

[BonifayRam]

I think a team has a better chance at winning a SB if they have an elite QB with elite skill position players surrounding him. I don't consider a LT to be a "skilled" position. Some may argue that but I think that starts getting into semantics. If a team has an elite QB and elite skill players and just a serviceable LT, I like their chances better than a team that has an elite LT and serviceable skill players. I want Pro Bowlers at the skill positions. If we have that, I don't think we'll need an elite LT. I think Fisher believes in this philosophy as well considering his draft history.

I understand you well V3 you & I have enjoyed these type conversations in the past and I am sure we will enjoy many more hopefully its sure fun for me. You & I are active pro & cons on this subject. Looks like I maybe at odds with Fishers/Sneads draft philosophy on OL'ers & for me I will keep clinging & clanging out here in the fiber hoping he may change ...when we start having winning seasons something we have not seen in over a decade I might pipe-down a bit. But Sam the pocket passer has not had a comfortable OL since entering the NFL. I believe he will not be successful until he has a comfortable OL. All the skilled WR's/RB's/TE's in the world will not make him successful IMO or us a winning team.

 

[Memphis Ram]

If you're going with the run heavy offense, then spending a premium pick on a LT makes even less sense to me. I'm fine with building the O-line but I don't think you need to spend the #2 pick on it in order for it to perform well.

It does if the player is one of the best run blocking Olinemen to come out in awhile.

 

[BonifayRam]

I get that you [hl]REALLY [/hl] want an OT. That's fine. I don't see it as being that big of a need...at least not just yet. If they find that Long is done after next season, I believe they can still find one that will be just fine in either the draft or through another Boudreau special. We disagree on this. That's cool. That's what makes this place better than others. We can still be in opposite corners and still hug afterwards. :cheese:

Yep I do but wait till draft day one & if the Texans screw up & trade out leaving the Rams staring down a DE....

:woot:big-time advocate for taking the opposite of a OT in Jadeveon Clowney. Now you must think I am really nuts :cray: on that subject.

Guess you know where I will be with the #13 selection?:nobait:

 

[jap]

I don't know what upside is if it isn't experience

According to Softli, upside is demonstrated ability on the practice field that has not translated to game day yet.

 

[Ramifications]

Barksdale was a highly recruited prep that went to LSU, and was a third round pick by OAK. They made a big mistake letting him go, but than again, maybe he is playing better due to the coaching up by Boudreau?

One thing about Jake Long's post ACL surgery rehab, status and early season avail is that, not cutting as much as a RB or WR, that could lead to a more favorable prognosis for an early return. Maybe they can give him extra help by lining the TE on his side if needed. They could also call a few more run plays initially?

Not sure about six major surgeries. Is that dating back to Michigan. A few of the injuries the last few years in MIA were of the soft tissue variety, and not chronic or repeat (things like tricep and pect?). If true, I don't put them on the level of serious surgeries like torn ACL, ruptured Achilles, cervical vertebrae fusion, bad foot/toe injuries that were death blows to the careers of Deion and OJ McDuffie, etc.

 

[BonifayRam]

One thing about Jake Long's post ACL surgery rehab, status and early season avail is that, not cutting as much as a RB or WR, that could lead to a more favorable prognosis for an early return. Maybe they can give him extra help by lining the TE on his side if needed. They could also call a few more run plays initially?

Not sure about six major surgeries. Is that dating back to Michigan. A few of the injuries the last few years in MIA were of the soft tissue variety, and not chronic or repeat (things like tricep and pect?). If true, I don't put them on the level of serious surgeries like torn ACL, ruptured Achilles, cervical vertebrae fusion, bad foot/toe injuries that were death blows to the careers of Deion and OJ McDuffie, etc.

Not so sure what type of surgeries are major vs minor, do we really know that much information about any surgery? Seems to me they tend to downplay them & leave out a lot. I leave that to you as the official call....to me but mounting number is telling. I also place in the soft tissue injuries too. I could be wrong on some of the dates Ramifications but maybe this would help you. But from this non official review both shoulders, both knees, right ankle, right foot, right biceps (unknown) L or R triceps whats left that has not went under the knife? if you know of an official page please let me know this is just me reading numerous reports for you.

College
Early 2005 Surgery right shoulder
Early 2005 Surgery Right Ankle
Late 2005 Surgery his second right foot injury

Entered NFL in 2008
2010 Left knee injury MCL sprain
After 2010 season Surgery for a dislocated left shoulder with a torn labrum & Surgery to Left knee
2011 lower back injury that resulted in his placement on IR'd.
2011 Chronic lingering left knee trouble missed 2 games
After 2011 season Surgery torn right biceps muscle
2012 Right knee MCL sprain missed four games
After 2012 season Surgery Torn triceps
2013 WK#16 Right knee ACL/MCL tears IR'd.
2014 Surgery to repair ACL

PS.
In 2008, 2009 & 2010 Jake did not miss any regular season games to injury.
2011, 2012 & 2013 injuries mounting Jake finally missed major parts of only 8 games. 2012 & 2013 ended up on IR.
Also Jake originally failed his first physical exam with the Dolphin. Miami then fired the the team doctor & the new doctor gave Jake long a passing him.

 

[BonifayRam]

This is what my understanding was too that it just did not work to Joe Barksdales advantage. JB still has some issues with those second moves from quick LDE's but he seems to be in the right position to keep them from the kill even though JB does give up his share of pressures. I would say that JB is the best ORT the Rams have had since Kyle Turley got hurt.

 

[BonifayRam]

I do think that JB will get better with more time while he may never get close reach the fame of a Jake Long where would the Rams be if JB had not picked up his game? Maybe two picks in the top five in 2014?

As far as ex Ram Saffold...I feel that he is much better on the left side than right ....I also think as good as he was @ ORG he will be that much better playing LEFT OG!

 

[BonifayRam]

It is an insult to Greg Robinson to even put him in the same sentence as Jason Smith. :vomit: Please watch him play before coming to such a conclusion based off of only a couple of clips.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/historical/516673
Jason Smith
A converted tight end,Known for his pass-protection skills, Should work well in zone-blocking schemes with his ability to lock onto defenders and move, Typically operates out of a two-point stance for Baylor.Raw in his pass-set technique, standing a bit upright and backpedaling instead of sliding to mirror his man.average upper-body strength and footwork.Could use a bit more bulk in the lower body.May initially have to be moved inside to left guard for a zone-blocking team.Has made significant improvement in terms of technique and strength over the past two years at left tackle.but needs footwork refinement.Must develop more power in his punch,but he is still not as alert to twists and games, does not recognize them quick enough to get into position to challenge.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1824809/greg-robinson
Gerald Robinson
Remarkable combination of size, power and body control. Owns a prototypical frame for playing offensive line in the NFL, including broad shoulders, long arms, a relatively trim waist, thick bubble and tree trunks for legs.awesome power to simply maul opponents, often driving them yards off the line of scrimmage.good spatial awareness and body control to keep his feet in traffic.
Developing pass blocker with all of the physical traits.An exceptional talent just scratching the surface of his potential.Only two years of starting experience and plays in a relatively simple collegiate system which caters to his strengths, rarely asking him to pass block on an island.Can be a bit high off the snap.Can play too low, at times, leaving himself vulnerable to over-arm swim moves.

This tells the real story & carries much weight with me Smith played @ Baylor & Gerald played in the deep south in the SEC!

 

[Ramifications]

Not so sure what type of surgeries are major vs minor, do we really know that much information about any surgery? Seems to me they tend to downplay them & leave out a lot. I leave that to you as the official call....to me but mounting number is telling. I also place in the soft tissue injuries too. I could be wrong on some of the dates Ramifications but maybe this would help you. But from this non official review both shoulders, both knees, right ankle, right foot, right biceps (unknown) L or R triceps whats left that has not went under the knife? if you know of an official page please let me know this is just me reading numerous reports for you.

College
Early 2005 Surgery right shoulder
Early 2005 Surgery Right Ankle
Late 2005 Surgery his second right foot injury

Entered NFL in 2008
2010 Left knee injury MCL sprain
After 2010 season Surgery for a dislocated left shoulder with a torn labrum & Surgery to Left knee
2011 lower back injury that resulted in his placement on IR'd.
2011 Chronic lingering left knee trouble missed 2 games
After 2011 season Surgery torn right biceps muscle
2012 Right knee MCL sprain missed four games
After 2012 season Surgery Torn triceps
2013 WK#16 Right knee ACL/MCL tears IR'd.
2014 Surgery to repair ACL

PS.
In 2008, 2009 & 2010 Jake did not miss any regular season games to injury.
2011, 2012 & 2013 injuries mounting Jake finally missed major parts of only 8 games. 2012 & 2013 ended up on IR.
Also Jake originally failed his first physical exam with the Dolphin. Miami then fired the the team doctor & the new doctor gave Jake long a passing him.

Good information,

thanks, helps to "plan our day" when it comes to the draft.

I didn't realize his injury history was so extensive, which is why I asked if it dated back to college (actually, that does vaguely ring a bell, so perhaps I forgot some of the Michigan stuff). I guess it is a good sign that he was still playing at a high level last year, but one of these days they could take a cumulative toll and be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

There should be a special Jake Long edition of the classic children's game Operation, where his nose lights up red if the tweezers make contact with the metal side trying to extract the wishbone.

I think I heard Mark Schelerth say he had something like 27 surgical procedures (maybe as many as 15+ on his knees alone), but not certain, that seems high.

 

[Zaphod]

If you're going with the run heavy offense, then spending a premium pick on a LT makes even less sense to me. I'm fine with building the O-line but I don't think you need to spend the #2 pick on it in order for it to perform well.

They tried pass first at the beginning of this season and failed mostly due to the offensive line not being able to support the time they need to stretch the field.

Regardless of the adjustment, I don't think they want to be dependent on the run. I really think in the end that want to be a balanced team that has the ability to force a team to pick their poison, and that really does depend on a versatile offensive line more than a particular dominance at any skill position.

No doubt they won't go into next season thinking they can implement a spread offense right out of the gate, but I have no doubt that they will continue to implement a more complete passing attack as the team progresses, and this includes building a more dominant pass defense that isn't so dependent on the defensive line.

Not that I'm in the camp that believes the have to draft Matthews or Robinson. But just considering where they want this team to go and ready for the future, I think they will have to draft a guard and tackle if only for development purposes.

That said, there's really no way of saying who they draft or if they do pick a WR like Watkins. I believe that they could draft one or more of a DT, OLB, CB and FS in the first round to create a tremendously positive impact on the defense. I wouldn't be horrified like last season if they did draft Watkins, but that's only because of his actual strengths fitting the team's needs vs. Austin.

In the end, I think a lot may depend on what their options are for trading down. And there will be a lot of options for improving this team's defense and offense dramatically, to include that of drafting an OT and OG early.

 

[V3]

They tried pass first at the beginning of this season and failed mostly due to the offensive line not being able to support the time they need to stretch the field.

Regardless of the adjustment, I don't think they want to be dependent on the run. I really think in the end that want to be a balanced team that has the ability to force a team to pick their poison, and that really does depend on a versatile offensive line more than a particular dominance at any skill position.

No doubt they won't go into next season thinking they can implement a spread offense right out of the gate, but I have no doubt that they will continue to implement a more complete passing attack as the team progresses, and this includes building a more dominant pass defense that isn't so dependent on the defensive line.

Not that I'm in the camp that believes the have to draft Matthews or Robinson. But just considering where they want this team to go and ready for the future, I think they will have to draft a guard and tackle if only for development purposes.

That said, there's really no way of saying who they draft or if they do pick a WR like Watkins. I believe that they could draft one or more of a DT, OLB, CB and FS in the first round to create a tremendously positive impact on the defense. I wouldn't be horrified like last season if they did draft Watkins, but that's only because of his actual strengths fitting the team's needs vs. Austin.

In the end, I think a lot may depend on what their options are for trading down. And there will be a lot of options for improving this team's defense and offense dramatically, to include that of drafting an OT and OG early.

Other than a few bad games, Long wasn't bad in pass-pro. That wasn't the reason the Rams failed at the spread out pass happy offense they tried at the beginning. The whole O-line overall wasn't that bad at pass-pro with the exception of a few bad games. The biggest weakness was probably LG but we're not talking about taking a LG. We're talking about taking a LT. IMO the reasons the pass heavy offense failed were because of the WR's, poor RB pass-pro(that got better later on), weak play calling, and possibly QB play(I know no one on this forum is going to agree with me on that part so don't even bother bringing it up). Again, there were some games where the O-line definitely sucked but overall they weren't bad. There were plenty of games/plays where they did their job yet the plays failed for various reasons.

 

[BonifayRam]

Good information,

thanks, helps to "plan our day" when it comes to the draft.

I didn't realize his injury history was so extensive, which is why I asked if it dated back to college (actually, that does vaguely ring a bell, so perhaps I forgot some of the Michigan stuff). I guess it is a good sign that he was still playing at a high level last year, but one of these days they could take a cumulative toll and be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

There should be a special Jake Long edition of the classic children's game Operation, where his nose lights up red if the tweezers make contact with the metal side trying to extract the wishbone.

I think I heard Mark Schelerth say he had something like 27 surgical procedures (maybe as many as 15+ on his knees alone), but not certain, that seems high.

Last year when Jake Long was being considered by Snead & Fisher I began to look deep into into his injury history. I found it extensive with much of the detailed information scarce and incomplete. Example I found the documented second foot surgery but could not find the first. The first knee surgery after the 2010 season was basically hidden behind the much publicized extensive left shoulder which was a major surgery with much damage due to the fact he played most of the season one armed. But I found so a little on side bar comments on his left knee when banging around the net. Its just my suspicion here but that left knee was more than a simple clean out surgery. But it was clear that that left knee continued to bother him after the surgery in 2010 causing him to miss a few games...I suspected they had to go back in that knee when they did that right bicep surgery but I can not prove it.

What is evidence Jake had issues in 2013 with speed rusher we all saw that. Jake was beat over & over in that Dallas game Jake was even replaced for a few series. It was not until the Rams went back to commit to the run that it made a big difference in Jake's improved play.

I watch the OL ....guess you figured that out by now...so I know Jake's pass blocking game is in decline where his run blocking would seem to be getting better. If Jake was having issues before this new ACL/MCL damage...Are we sticking our heads in the sand here on the future of his pass blocking performance?

I sure don't think Jake is done at all but if Jake is placed in more pass block situations with the less mobile Bradford is back there??? I suspect we will see Jake not in the best light where he will struggle even more @ OLT in this area in 2014 than in 2013.

I watched the pro bowl 1-26-2014 where they were interviewing Darrelle Revis who said he has been hard dealing with his 10-18-2012 surgery to repair just a ACL this 2013 season. Revis proclaimed that his knee is just now 100% over 15 months after the surgery. Jake is expected to be starting @ OLT in 7 1/2 months after his surgery trying out his new reconstructed ACL & his new scared tissue MCL. Yes I know going up against those slow footed weak DE's just is not the same as playing CB or RB... OK I get it.

 

[Zaphod]

Other than a few bad games, Long wasn't bad in pass-pro. That wasn't the reason the Rams failed at the spread out pass happy offense they tried at the beginning. The whole O-line overall wasn't that bad at pass-pro with the exception of a few bad games. The biggest weakness was probably LG but we're not talking about taking a LG. We're talking about taking a LT. IMO the reasons the pass heavy offense failed were because of the WR's, poor RB pass-pro(that got better later on), weak play calling, and possibly QB play(I know no one on this forum is going to agree with me on that part so don't even bother bringing it up). Again, there were some games where the O-line definitely sucked but overall they weren't bad. There were plenty of games/plays where they did their job yet the plays failed for various reasons.

Going to have to agree to disagree on that, at the beginning of the season, the ends were getting to Sam were blowing up the play before the middle routes were completed and there was no threat on the flat routes to the RB. The right side was the one breaking down consistently.

And I'm not necessarily disagreeing on the draft. I wouldn't draft another smaller situational receiver, but it would be hard not to pass on a potential #1 go to guy. I'm just looking for a win now situation, and that could include drafting the right WR in the first round, though I would never expect a rookie to have an immediate impact, especially at that position. I'm just suggesting that you might be a bit disappointed if they don't draft one as everyone has already mentioned due to holes everywhere on this team.

Regardless of the round, and I would like to see your opinion on this, I think they have to draft a tackle and guard for depth alone. I think it's impossible for any Rams fan to ignore the injury plagued merry go round at the offensive line this season, regardless of Long or Barksdale's play later on in the season. To me, I think the line was exposed with all of the injury, and to me that's something that they'll have to address through the draft. I really think it would be silly not to address depth, but I'm not the coaching staff and I don't know how they really view Sean Hooey's readiness to fill in effectively.

 

[BonifayRam]

Other than a few bad games, Long wasn't bad in pass-pro. That wasn't the reason the Rams failed at the spread out pass happy offense they tried at the beginning. The whole O-line overall wasn't that bad at pass-pro with the exception of a few bad games. The biggest weakness was probably LG but we're not talking about taking a LG. We're talking about taking a LT. IMO the reasons the pass heavy offense failed were because of the WR's, poor RB pass-pro(that got better later on), weak play calling, and possibly QB play(I know no one on this forum is going to agree with me on that part so don't even bother bringing it up). Again, there were some games where the O-line definitely sucked but overall they weren't bad. There were plenty of games/plays where they did their job yet the plays failed for various reasons.

In your review of the 16 game OL can you point to any consistent pass blocking back to back games from the 2013 OL? I would agree with you the biggest fails did come from the left side but they came from many other places too. CW main issue was he was inconsistent period. Like I said in my above post Jake Long had several early games where he was just as inconsistent as CW. JL issues were with speeders. Sure all things would go into the mix as the issue with the pass offense. I would not say Jake was overall bad in his pass- pro but he was not good either. Now what Jake is very good in is his run blocking from OLT:bigup: