New: Latest on Kroenke, Rams and NFL in STL

[dbrooks25]

All 3 of the ones I mentioned fall in the same time frame.

The NFL has encouraged all three markets. San Diego and St Louis more since they have been following the advice but in the end either one or both cities will lose their teams. The NFL may say that things have changed but in most respects they haven't at least in regards to the owners.

Understood as far as the other three cities are concerned. We shall see when it comes to your second point.

 

[dbrooks25]

The Clippers recently sold for $2 billion and Forbes currently has the Rams valued at under a billion. L.A. is a goldmine, not really about fan support...

Funny how fan support can be criticized in St. Louis, but when this article comes out with comments from some LA area residents who don't give a flying fugg about the NFL, fan support doesn't really matter. C'mon, I don't care what market a team is in, fan support does matter.

 

[MrMotes]

Funny how fan support can be criticized in St. Louis, but when this article comes out with comments from some LA area residents who don't give a flying fugg about the NFL, fan support doesn't really matter. C'mon, I don't care what market a team is in, fan support does matter.

I've never criticized St. Louis fan support. I don't think it's bad, or the issue...

 

[Rmfnlt]

Funny how fan support can be criticized in St. Louis, but when this article comes out with comments from some LA area residents who don't give a flying fugg about the NFL, fan support doesn't really matter. C'mon, I don't care what market a team is in, fan support does matter.

Of course it does.

No customers, your business dies.

 

[dbrooks25]

I've never criticized St. Louis fan support. I don't think it's bad, or the issue...

Gotcha, my bad, too many members here to figure out who said what. As you know, others have, and now that this article came out none of them have much to say about it.

 

[bluecoconuts]

They still have to BUILD that vision.....at least they have completed the tear down of Hollywood Park...But, no building as of 7-20-2015

The version that Kroenke designed or the Riverfront stadium? I know they still need to build them, but it's unlikely that either project gets major overhauls at this point. The only way I see the Riverfront project changing a lot is if they give Kroenke the land and let him build his own design on there, which I don't think is likely. Also that was the Carson project you posted.

How do you know that?

That he wouldn't have issues in the short term? Because it'll be a new an exciting stadium. Overall, he shouldn't have major issues, because it's in a good location, and a good project. The Kings/Lakers/Clippers don't seem to have issues attracting fans to Staples Center even when the teams aren't good. While I'm in the camp that 80,000 seats is probably too big, I don't believe he'll have tons of problems getting fans to the games. Especially not to the point he's not making money.

So, he's paying cash to build that entire stadium? Of course he isn't. Which means he's taking on debt to fund his "private" stadium. Of course, we'll never know how much debt or under what terms. But I think it's fair to say he'll have to pay someone (call it psuedo-rent ).

He could, in theory, pay for it all up front, however he would have that same 'rent' to pay back the debt in St Louis as well, but he's then limited to only 8 events to make money back. That's not very many.

This is true. But I'm not sure how much revenue that will bring, though. Again, don't know how much debt load he's taking on. Not sure about demand to rent that place out... there's lots of competition in L.A. for events... much more than in STL.

There's a lot of events, and a lot of demand for events, he wont have issues renting the place out. Comic Con has discussed moving up to LA, E3 may decide to go to a bigger venue as they have been running out of space at LA Live, plus there's Final Four events, college bowls, etc. Even if he's taking on more debt load, it'll be easier to pay it off, especially as time goes on.

If you say something with enough conviction, people might believe you! But it doesn't make it so.

That is true, it's not a knock on St Louis or anything, but it's true. LA is a much larger city, there's more people in LA county than the entire state of Missouri, and LA sees far more traffic in terms of tourism. Those are facts, there is more money to be made in Los Angeles than there is in St Louis. There's more money to be made in New York than in Los Angeles too, but that's not a knock on LA either, that's just the truth.

I kinda get a kick out of how large Kroenke's business reputation has become... larger than life it seems. It's like he's never made a bad investment... never lost money on a venture.

Lots of smarter, wealthier people have lost tons of money on investments. Oh, and some of the have actually been in L.A.

I'm sure he's made bad investments or lost money on a venture, but typically when your business grows that much that fast, you're making more right decisions than wrong decisions. Sure it could all backfire on him, but given the amount of homework done about the viability of a team in LA, not only by Kroenke, but by the NFL, by countless other billionaires, it's pretty unlikely that they're all wrong.

 

[bluecoconuts]

These are all great points...However, the league equally splits the profits between the 32 teams...Sure concessions & merchandise are probably separate...but the majority of the money comes from the shared TV deal...I guess they all make about the same...the big profits would come on the resale of the team...Just a guess...and if true, his initial start-up costs, like this possible move to LA, which may cost in excess of $2 Billion, would pretty much balance out any real profit....

That's looking at just money from football, which isn't really correct. He'll make a lot of money not from football with the Inglewood stadium, which is money not available to him in St Louis because he doesn't own/operate the stadium.

 

[dieterbrock]

Has anyone gone to business school?

Is that a requirement now?

 

[dieterbrock]

That he wouldn't have issues in the short term? Because it'll be a new an exciting stadium. Overall, he shouldn't have major issues, because it's in a good location, and a good project. The Kings/Lakers/Clippers don't seem to have issues attracting fans to Staples Center even when the teams aren't good. While I'm in the camp that 80,000 seats is probably too big, I don't believe he'll have tons of problems getting fans to the games. Especially not to the point he's not making money.
.

I'm too lazy to even research it, but has any professional team built a state of the art stadium and had attendance issues in the short term? I imagine they havent. Plus, a large portion of Stan's dream stadium is the incredible marketing advantage it will offer with the AD space on the top of the stadium in view of landing/departing flights

 

[OldSchool]

Funny how fan support can be criticized in St. Louis, but when this article comes out with comments from some LA area residents who don't give a flying fugg about the NFL, fan support doesn't really matter. C'mon, I don't care what market a team is in, fan support does matter.

Judging potential fan support in either city based off the comments of a few people is weak. Yes fan support matters and we could get comments from residents of every NFL city about not caring if the city has a team or not. Go on to any PD article about the new stadium and you'll find some there too.

 

[OldSchool]

Not necessarily true.

Yes, the list is based on value IIRC. But it doesn't go into any details as to how the value of each person's wealth is made up.
Could be all long term assets... could all be short term... who knows.

But to say value is everything and moving to L.A. based solely on value is being simplistic in business terms.

Who knows if Kroenke could make money in L.A. To think that it has nothing to do with fan (customer) support is crazy. EVERYTHING is MUCH more costly in L.A. The revenue has got to be there. Kroenke had a great deal in STL... it wasn't hard to make money there. Value might not be STL but you could earn a nice buck or two.

Can you in L.A.? Some think that doesn't matter... his value will go up.

Has anyone gone to business school?

I wasn't referencing anything with sports or the relocation. The comment was that Kroenke isn't really worth what he's listed at because it's all based on the value of his holdings not actual wealth. My point was the same can be said for all of the ultra wealthy.

 

[dbrooks25]

Judging potential fan support in either city based off the comments of a few people is weak. Yes fan support matters and we could get comments from residents of every NFL city about not caring if the city has a team or not. Go on to any PD article about the new stadium and you'll find some there too.

Oh, I'm sure there are way more people in the area who feel that way. It isn't like they sought out specific people who felt one way or the other for that article. I don't need to go to the PD article, I read about the focus group here where most people were in support of the Rams staying, which is what was on par with what most of us thought. The random people in LA who were questioned didn't care one way or the other, which was on par with what a lot of people thought.

If an article like this one turned up with the same reaction from St. Louis, the LA supporters here would have been all over it.

 

[OldSchool]

Also there was an article posted a few pages back pointing out the uneducated fans in LA. Honest question here do you really think those same type of fans can't be found in any city with an NFL, MLB or NBA team or teams?

 

[Rmfnlt]

That he wouldn't have issues in the short term? Because it'll be a new an exciting stadium.
Yes, and that works for the short term. But, if the product is not appealing, the glitter fades away. Enthusiasm for JerryWorld was fading fast before the Cowboys had a surprise season.

Overall, he shouldn't have major issues, because it's in a good location, and a good project.
That's not what I got out of the article... sounds like a depressed area, actually. Clearly, the race track couldn't be sustained. And doesn't sound like much new activity. Not as bad as the riverfront in STL, but not prime real estate... got to figure Kroenke looks for bargains... typically, they're not in prime areas. He's counting on a renaissance (like STL is).

The Kings/Lakers/Clippers don't seem to have issues attracting fans to Staples Center even when the teams aren't good.
Did you read the article? It said that the Lakers and Clippers attendance flip-flopped when the team's records did.

While I'm in the camp that 80,000 seats is probably too big, I don't believe he'll have tons of problems getting fans to the games. Especially not to the point he's not making money.
Based on the overall sentiment of the fans in the article, I'd say the opposite. Short term? Curiosity factor? Yes. But if the team doesn't win consistently, sure appears the fans wouldn't be interested.

He could, in theory, pay for it all up front, however he would have that same 'rent' to pay back the debt in St Louis as well, but he's then limited to only 8 events to make money back. That's not very many.
Doubt he has that much cash on hand... and, even if he did, doubt he'd use it all on one investment. Not very business saavy.

There's a lot of events, and a lot of demand for events, he wont have issues renting the place out. Comic Con has discussed moving up to LA, E3 may decide to go to a bigger venue as they have been running out of space at LA Live, plus there's Final Four events, college bowls, etc. Even if he's taking on more debt load, it'll be easier to pay it off, especially as time goes on.
That's all true. But there is also a lot more competition in L.A. than STL.

That is true, it's not a knock on St Louis or anything, but it's true. LA is a much larger city, there's more people in LA county than the entire state of Missouri, and LA sees far more traffic in terms of tourism. Those are facts, there is more money to be made in Los Angeles than there is in St Louis. There's more money to be made in New York than in Los Angeles too, but that's not a knock on LA either, that's just the truth.
Want to know the truth? Investments fail in big and small cities. In fact, the bigger they are, the harder they fall.... more money invested.
http://www.businesspundit.com/the-25-worst-business-failures-in-history/
From all size cities.

I'm sure he's made bad investments or lost money on a venture, but typically when your business grows that much that fast, you're making more right decisions than wrong decisions. Sure it could all backfire on him, but given the amount of homework done about the viability of a team in LA, not only by Kroenke, but by the NFL, by countless other billionaires, it's pretty unlikely that they're all wrong.
So, where is this homework? If you have these case studies that show a billion dollar stadium in Inglewood, CA can be successful, let me know.
I'm sure Kronke has an extremely detailed business plan for it... but - like all business plans - it's chock full of assumptions.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Is that a requirement now?

No offense, but it helps to understand the difference between a balance sheet and income statement.

In fact, most executives would tell you the Statement of Cash Flows is the most important.

 

[MrMotes]

Is that a requirement now?

Stan Kroenke has a Masters in business...

 

[Rmfnlt]

That's looking at just money from football, which isn't really correct. He'll make a lot of money not from football with the Inglewood stadium, which is money not available to him in St Louis because he doesn't own/operate the stadium.

Could turn out he does end up owning that STL stadium! Stranger things have happened and, since we're into speculation and all...

 

[OldSchool]

Oh, I'm sure there are way more people in the area who feel that way. It isn't like they sought out specific people who felt one way or the other for that article. I don't need to go to the PD article, I read about the focus group here where most people were in support of the Rams staying, which is what was on par with what most of us thought. The random people in LA who were questioned didn't care one way or the other, which was on par with what a lot of people thought.

If an article like this one turned up with the same reaction from St. Louis, the LA supporters here would have been all over it.

So you're willing to generalize that because a few people are quoted in an article that they don't care if they get an NFL team that the city/area as a whole don't care and don't deserve one. But we've seen poll numbers from St. Louis saying the same thing that not everybody cares if they keep a team and won't support it that doesn't mean anything?

An article like that about any city is a gross generalization and is lazy journalism. The fact that anybody would support such an article is comedy, that same article could be written from another perspective to counter it.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Also there was an article posted a few pages back pointing out the uneducated fans in LA. Honest question here do you really think those same type of fans can't be found in any city with an NFL, MLB or NBA team or teams?

So, did they say the people in THAT article were uneducated?

 

[Rmfnlt]

I wasn't referencing anything with sports or the relocation. The comment was that Kroenke isn't really worth what he's listed at because it's all based on the value of his holdings not actual wealth. My point was the same can be said for all of the ultra wealthy.

Sorry... I was referencing some other's sentiments...

But you have me confused now... can you explain this part to me?
"Kroenke isn't really worth what he's listed at because it's all based on the value of his holdings not actual wealth."