New: Latest on Kroenke, Rams and NFL in STL

[8to12]

Oh... you must mean the $700 million that never really was a realistic option, that one...

Sure, but there's two sides of the story. The CVC knew what it would take to make the Dome top tier they opted to low ball it.

Had the CVC made a proposal that the arbitrator thought met the guidelines, maybe Kroenke's proposal wouldn't have mattered. There's a good chance he would've been forced to stay in the lease.

 

[dbrooks25]

The NFL has only stated there are pleased with the progress which is significant not the actual deal that has been proposed.

I'm talking about the stadium itself, not the deal.

 

[dbrooks25]

You don't raise the value of your franchise by putting 0 dollars into the stadium.

Thank you. To think an owner would expect a new stadium to be built without putting any money into it is crazy. Renovating the dome wouldn't have increased the value of the franchise the same way as building a new stadium will.

 

[The Ripper]

Thank you. To think an owner would expect a new stadium to be built without putting any money into it is crazy. Renovating the dome wouldn't have increased the value of the franchise the same way as building a new stadium will.

That's pretty much what Irsay got.

The second no way to tell without comparing revenue streams. A renovated Dome that could house a Superbowl and NCAA Tournament would be hard to beat.

 

[dbrooks25]

That's pretty much what Irsay got.

The second no way to tell without comparing revenue streams. A renovated Dome that could house a Superbowl and NCAA Tournament would be hard to beat.

True about the Superbowl. The EJD has already hosted the NCAA Tournament numerous times, though. I believe they've hosted the NCAA Wrestling Championship as well. Not as sure about that, however.

 

[OldSchool]

show me anything that said the Rams would pay anything on that, ive never seen anything that said anyone but the CVC was supposed to pay all of it.

Ok this is not the first time I have posted these here.

Here is one article detailing the Rams requests and it says this:

Either way, taxpayers of Missouri and St. Louis will be asked to help pay for this renovation.

http://makintheplay.com/2012/05/15/rams-requests-revealed-what-it-means/

And here is the actual proposal that was leaked by the Missouri AG years ago and has been online the whole time.

https://localtvktvi.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/ramsdocs.pdf

Read page 2 of the plan. "The CVC can present the Rams with a financial plan which can be implemented by the CVC or Authority"

It's their stadium these were the Rams suggested upgrades and it was their right to come up with the financial plan just as the Rams suggested. They came up with the financial plan for their plan. But they refused the Rams plan before they got an estimate or came up with a financial plan. They just stuck an estimate of $700 million without getting an actual contractors estimate. Every article from the time if you check says the same thing as the first I posted. They all say that the city and state taxpayers would have to pay some of the Rams requested upgrades. None of them say the Rams expected the CVC/City/State to pay for everything.

 

[dbrooks25]

Ok this is not the first time I have posted these here.

Here is one article detailing the Rams requests and it says this:


http://makintheplay.com/2012/05/15/rams-requests-revealed-what-it-means/

And here is the actual proposal that was leaked by the Missouri AG years ago and has been online the whole time.

https://localtvktvi.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/ramsdocs.pdf

Read page 2 of the plan. "The CVC can present the Rams with a financial plan which can be implemented by the CVC or Authority"

It's their stadium these were the Rams suggested upgrades and it was their right to come up with the financial plan just as the Rams suggested. They came up with the financial plan for their plan. But they refused the Rams plan before they got an estimate or came up with a financial plan. They just stuck an estimate of $700 million without getting an actual contractors estimate. Every article from the time if you check says the same thing as the first I posted. They all say that the city and state taxpayers would have to pay some of the Rams requested upgrades. None of them say the Rams expected the CVC/City/State to pay for everything.

I hear ya, but man is it worth $700 million to basically rent the team for just 10 years? For that much money, there would need to be a guarantee they would be here for much longer. Just my opinion, though.

 

[OldSchool]

You don't raise the value of your franchise by putting 0 dollars into the stadium.

You also don't raise it by playing in a stadium somebody else owns. You want to truly raise the value of your team you buy your own stadium. It's not a coincidence that 4 of the top 5 valued teams and 7 of the top 10 own their own stadium. Those 3 in the top 10 that are city owned also are smart enough to have multiple tenants. A college or two a soccer team a BCS bowl game etc etc. And in those cases the city is smart enough with money generated from the stadium and generates enough that the teams using the stadium are required to give minimal assistance financially for upgrades.

 

[OldSchool]

I hear ya, but man is it worth $700 million to basically rent the team for just 10 years? For that much money, there would need to be a guarantee they would be here for much longer. Just my opinion, though.

I think the cities biggest mistake was expecting Kroenke to be happy renting. He owns the stadium that all this other teams play in. He's a real estate mogul/genius. You don't get those guys to pay rent they own and develop.

 

[The Ripper]

I hear ya, but man is it worth $700 million to basically rent the team for just 10 years? For that much money, there would need to be a guarantee they would be here for much longer. Just my opinion, though.

It's a give and take so the lease probably would have been reworked. Plus with G4 the team wouldn't have the option to walk in 10 years. There a number of ways they could have worked the revenue streams to satisfy the NFL for the owners portion of the loan

 

[blue4]

It's a give and take so the lease probably would have been reworked. Plus with G4 the team wouldn't have the option to walk in 10 years. There a number of ways they could have worked the revenue streams to satisfy the NFL for the owners portion of the loan

This is all assuming Stan wanted to stay in the ED. To me most of the signs pointed to him planning a move from the start. From the early land purchase to the failed attempt to buy the Dodgers.

 

[ChrisW]

You also don't raise it by playing in a stadium somebody else owns. You want to truly raise the value of your team you buy your own stadium. It's not a coincidence that 4 of the top 5 valued teams and 7 of the top 10 own their own stadium. Those 3 in the top 10 that are city owned also are smart enough to have multiple tenants. A college or two a soccer team a BCS bowl game etc etc. And in those cases the city is smart enough with money generated from the stadium and generates enough that the teams using the stadium are required to give minimal assistance financially for upgrades.

This is what STL is trying to do. Along with a stadium that is being designed to be upgraded in the future, which the dome was not.

 

[ChrisW]

I think the cities biggest mistake was expecting Kroenke to be happy renting. He owns the stadium that all this other teams play in. He's a real estate mogul/genius. You don't get those guys to pay rent they own and develop.

Virtually all his real estate is strip malls and the like. And you can't really compare $200M venues to $1B+ NFL stadiums. It's a whole new can of worms.

 

[MrMotes]

You don't raise the value of your franchise by putting 0 dollars into the stadium.

It worked in '95...

 

[ChrisW]

It worked in '95...

They switched cities, what's your point?

 

[WillasDad]

This is what STL is trying to do. Along with a stadium that is being designed to be upgraded in the future, which the dome was not.

Being known as the city that makes outlandish promises and then not honor them can't help in attempting to attract those multiple tenants.

 

[blue4]

Being known as the city that makes outlandish promises and then not honor them can't help in attempting to attract those multiple tenants.

Um..probably not. Most businesses and people are already familiar with how a lease works.

 

[OldSchool]

This is what STL is trying to do. Along with a stadium that is being designed to be upgraded in the future, which the dome was not.

Which isn't going to be easy for them to do. The only team/attraction they have is the Rams. The nearest college team is too far away in Mizzou.

Virtually all his real estate is strip malls and the like. And you can't really compare $200M venues to $1B+ NFL stadiums. It's a whole new can of worms.

Interesting implying he can't do that. As that's exactly what he's doing in Inglewood. Not only does he own stadiums but he owns the land around it to maximize his profits. Underestimate him if you want, looking at his business background I'm not going to make that mistake.

 

[ChrisW]

Which isn't going to be easy for them to do. The only team/attraction they have is the Rams. The nearest college team is too far away in Mizzou.

The Dome used to hold the Mizzou vs. Illinois football and basketball games every year. It's a HUGE draw for the area. The stadium team is also working on drawing MLS to the area, and it looks to be that they have a concert configuration for the stadium.

Interesting implying he can't do that. As that's exactly what he's doing in Inglewood. Not only does he own stadiums but he owns the land around it to maximize his profits. Underestimate him if you want, looking at his business background I'm not going to make that mistake.

I'm not implying that he can't do it. I'm just pointing out what his real estate holdings company does. Strip Malls. I was also pointing out how much more expensive upkeep on a Billion dollar stadium is compared to a $200M basketball or Hockey arena. That's why we have public dollars going to help.

 

[Rmfnlt]

We've been thru this CVC discussion before. I see as much chance on agreement this time around as before.

What I find weird, or fascinating, about this and many other discussions on here and in news organizations is that other owners seem like befuddled children to some people. They don't understand contracts, they don't remember or care about the circumstances regarding the Rams last move, they have no self respect being perfectly fine with dealing with minions. People kind of portray them as a poor, downtrodden group easily lead and manipulated. They'll believe things like the Rams and the Chargers organizations being on the same footing without ever glancing at a record or playoff berths. Spanos in particular is portrayed as a down on his luck shyster who couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Meanwhile, Stan Kroenke's wealth, omnipotence, and power apparently is unparalleled in the NFL. He can see the results of lawsuits before they happen. He can browbeat other billionaires unchallenged. He can leap tall buildings in a single bound. A man who makes Goldman Sachs look like rank amateurs in the stadium game.

To me, it's a 50-50 shot between Carson and Inglewood. There is no telling whether other owners will buy Stan's power play. And there is no guarantee that Stan wins any lawsuit he files. My own personal opinion used to be 60-40 chance Stan wins and moves. It's about 55-45 now. Not due to what's going on in St Louis. Without solid finance being released, it's effectively still in the theory stage. It's because Carson seems to be moving much more than I ever thought it would, and the Spanos/Davis team genuinely SEEMS to have better sympathy from the NFL. I get the sense that everything equal, they'd prefer Carson. It really is the only way they keep the St Louis market, which may not be the largest but it ain't chump change either.
Anyway just my impressions, not pointed at any person or news organization in particular.

Agree.

It's an easy retort to anyone who says Kroenke's plan might not work... or Spano's plan might work...

The easy retort is to say Spanos simply is no competition for Kroenke... in fact, none of the other owners are competition for Kroenke... he's just that much smarter than all of them. By saying nothing, Kroenke forwards the mysterious personna that he's the "smartest guy in the room"... but, is he? How do we know? Or, better yet, how do we know he's "that much smarter" than these other owners?

I've seen enough of Jerry Jones to say that, on the surface, he sounds like a total buffoon. And I mean total buffoon! But, clearly, the man knows how to make deals. Clearly, despite what comes out of his mouth in public, he is smart... very smart.

So, I think taking any of these owners at face value is dangerous. To me... they are all extemely bright individuals (with a few exceptions) who understand more than we think.

My problem with Carson is the environmental mess it's sitting on. I believe that is MUCH larger than anyone is letting on... and, ultimately, it will kill that deal. Just a hunch.