New: Latest on Kroenke, Rams and NFL in STL

[Moostache]

If the Rams are allowed to abandon St. Louis - and let's drop pretense here it would be a market abandonment NOT ANYTHING ELSE - I sincerely hope that St. Louis turns its back on the NFL like Pauly talking to Henry Hill at the end of Goodfellas...its time to take back our dignity from the abusive spouse. NFL keeps the Rams in St. Louis, or...

 

[iced]

Problem with your view on Shaw is that you have the 80's where the Rams were a competitive team except for 81' 82' and 87'. Then you have another stretch of years from 99 to 2006 where the Rams were again competitive. Like him or not but the fact is almost half of his 31 years served with the Rams produced winning teams. Yah less than 50% sucks but it's enough to say he wasn't completely clueless.

I think if you take a look at the roster moves from 90' until 94' you'd be hard pressed to find another period of time when the Rams were so unbelievably inept at identifying talented football players. It was too inept to believe that it wasn't part of a plan to drive fans away. Especially when GF's main argument was that she was going bankrupt if the team stayed in LA. She couldn't put a good team on the field or else the fans would buy tickets and fill the seats and her argument would fall to crap.

Look at the drafts since the team got here in the 90's.... Sure they hit on Tori Holt - look at how many they whiffed on

seriously - how do you whiff multiple times with multiple first round picks and not be incompetent? Let alone 2 years in a row...

Lawrence Phillips, Alex Barron, Robert Thomas, Damione Lewis, Trung candidate, Archuleta, tye hill, Jimmy Kennedy.. And these are just the first rounders.. they don't include players like Dominique Byrd, Claud Wroten, Joe Klopfenstein , Claude Terrell, etc. I can go on if you like but you may need a lot of eye bleach for that.

 

[12intheBox]

I honestly don't think it makes a lick of difference which city the Rams play in as far as how competitive the team is. All of this - players want to play in big markets is a thing of the past. It used to be that guys could get bigger endorsement deals in bigger markets - but the information age put that to bed. A guy can be as big of a star playing in Cincinnati as he can in New York - and we are seeing that play out in all sports today.

Even state taxes, cost of living, and the like don't seem to be big factors in free agency. Its about the football environment. Guys want to get paid, they want to play, they want to win, they want to be happy doing it.

I'm staying with the Rams no matter where they end up - though I make no secret that I'm rooting for them to stay in STL - and hoping that whichever city they call home that they get an awesome new stadium to play in - mostly at their owners expense.

 

[Legatron4]

I'm glad you'd stick if they don't..

So, does your route ever have you out this way?

Unfortunately, no. That would be incredible though. If I had enough money and found a good job, I would no doubt move there just for the Rams lol

 

[iced]

I see what you are saying about a certain group of people from LA. I will first say I know that there are a certain number of people in So-Cal who quit being Ram fans when Georgia moved the team. There are some in the "Bring back the LA Rams" group that I know disowned the team in '95 but are now jumping on the bandwagon. I don't associate with that group. Many of them are what I consider the "City first" type that we are discussing.
Secondly, In my 15 years of travels to STL for Rams games I have never seen or met 1 person who considers them self a football Cardinals fan. In addition, I have not read any post on this board or any other that a STL fan would continue to follow, or be a fan of the Rams if they are to move to LA.
In comparison, many Rams fans from So-Cal travel to STL each season to see the Rams play. Point being, there are many more fans from California who are loyal to the team regardless of where they play whereas fans from STL root only for the team that plays in STL.

I always found the "loyal to the city" type from LA interesting because as an LA fan you've never had a team to replace the Rams. The emotions you feel may not be the same as others. and I think a lot of "loyal to the city" and "loyal to the team" really comes down to ownership and the way they conduct themselves. It's not always about the product but who is being supported.

Also there have been some Fans on this board from St.Louis that have said they will follow the Rams wherever they go. And I wouldn't expect any others to admit it right now or immediately - wounds need to heal. And quite frankly with how Kroenke has conducted himself, if he moved I wouldn't be inclined to support him either. If he did move, clearly he would be contradicting everything he said about being "loyal to St.Louis", how much his "prior actions speak for themselves", and how "he can be trusted." I don't condone that type of bull shit, nor would I financially back it either.

Lot of LA fans quit being Fans based on what Georgia did - I'd expect the same courtesies extended since St.Louis would truly be getting a shaft. Don't think Georgia had a nice stadium on the table like Riverfront Stadium when she bolted did she?

Point being, there are many more fans from California who are loyal to the team regardless of where they play whereas fans from STL root only for the team that plays in STL.

Again, you don't know that - another broad assumption based on limited substance.

This board is the only place where I've met people from LA that actually actively follow the Rams. Based on that logic ^, should I easily conclude that LA fans quit caring about the Rams the moment they left? I mean hell whenever I ran into a fan in the LA area, I always asked them if they still followed the Rams - think maybe one said they do; most others either just lost interest in football or were more casual like "if I'm watching TV and they're on." Me on the other hand, I intentionally swapped apartment complexes just so I could sign up for Direct TV and get sunday ticket.

Regarding your point, " been faithful and loyal to a poor product", I found your choice of words interesting. I think that being fanatical about a team and being a consumer of an NFL product 2 different things. A Fan has uncritical enthusiasm for their team. A consumer has expectations and sometimes conditions on what they buy. If someone wants a high quality NFL product (team) that has a high winning percentage, then have them go find another team that meets those expectations and stop complaining about the Rams and their performance the past 10 years.
You can't have it both ways ; you can't be a loyal fan and then assign conditions to it.

I'm not talking about the hard core fans - I'm talking about the one's that are more Casual. Every fan base has fans that are extremely hardcore and loyal to the end. But those don't make up the entire fanbase, just a part of it.

In the world of the NFL, winning translates to fanship, fanship translates to money... The teams that are consistently bad year in year out have had their fan bases' loyalty "questioned" - think Raiders, Lions, Jaguars,etc and aren't raking in the big bucks like the teams that are consistently winning or had a culture of winning (Packers, Steelers, etc.)

A winning team makes the difference between a Casual fan showing up and one not. Not many people, especially in today's economy, want to or can afford to shell out the type of money it costs today to just go to a game (especially with TV's and technological advances). Even "cheap" games today go for atleast $100 a ticket for somewhat decent seats, and not many people go to games alone.

No one is assigning conditions - but if your casual fans haven't had any reason..I don't know what to tell you if you can't see the correlation between seeing team performances like the Linehan years - from coaches and players bickering on the side lines to being blown out by half time. Not sure about you but that's not what a lot of fans, especially ones with less wiggle room financially, are going to be inclined to spend their time and money on.

^ Keep in mind we're not talking about just bad - epically, or historically bad..No other team in history was as bad as the Rams were over 3 or 5 years

 

[Hacksaw]

Unfortunately, no. That would be incredible though. If I had enough money and found a good job, I would no doubt move there just for the Rams lol

We'll if you do PM me and I'll hook you up.

 

[iced]

All fans / people are different. Some don't talk to their ex's and some would stay loyal to the franchise no matter where they played. Others only like the team that represents their hometown or region. A lot of it comes from who's playing where/when your growing up. The above referenced fan thing is not an absolute condition, but it does exist. Some fans will not follow if jilted, some won't because they aren't horns first and the other will because they are.

I've often wondered how my reaction would be.... And I've gone from all extremes of potentially losing interest in football completely to cheering them on from afar... But there's no question it'd be very different, especially if/when St.Louis got a new team in. But based on how Kroenke has been acting throughout this whole process and after his big statement preaching to loyalty to st.louis, I could easily see myself losing interest. The analogy of breaking up with an ex is a good one - and how I feel about it honestly.

It's one thing if Peacock doesn't come through with the financing - it's another if the NFL feels there is a viable stadium plan on the table and he goes anyway. It's not like San Diego's plan, nor is the city acting like Oakland. We want to keep our team.

 

[Legatron4]

We'll if you do PM me and I'll hook you up.

A job or a place? Lol

 

[blue4]

I see what you are saying about a certain group of people from LA. I will first say I know that there are a certain number of people in So-Cal who quit being Ram fans when Georgia moved the team. There are some in the "Bring back the LA Rams" group that I know disowned the team in '95 but are now jumping on the bandwagon. I don't associate with that group. Many of them are what I consider the "City first" type that we are discussing.
Secondly, In my 15 years of travels to STL for Rams games I have never seen or met 1 person who considers them self a football Cardinals fan. In addition, I have not read any post on this board or any other that a STL fan would continue to follow, or be a fan of the Rams if they are to move to LA.
In comparison, many Rams fans from So-Cal travel to STL each season to see the Rams play. Point being, there are many more fans from California who are loyal to the team regardless of where they play whereas fans from STL root only for the team that plays in STL.

Regarding your point, " been faithful and loyal to a poor product", I found your choice of words interesting. I think that being fanatical about a team and being a consumer of an NFL product 2 different things. A Fan has uncritical enthusiasm for their team. A consumer has expectations and sometimes conditions on what they buy. If someone wants a high quality NFL product (team) that has a high winning percentage, then have them go find another team that meets those expectations and stop complaining about the Rams and their performance the past 10 years.
You can't have it both ways ; you can't be a loyal fan and then assign conditions to it.

I love these "I'm a better fan then you" posts. The feeling one must get from saying, "the way I'm a fan of this football team is so much better than that guy's way."
I'm a city first fan. Proud of it. It means I respect my fellow citizens enough to stop supporting a billionaire who screwed them over.

Perhaps that's not the way you meant it, but that's how it came out.

 

[Pancake]

Look at the drafts since the team got here in the 90's.... Sure they hit on Tori Holt - look at how many they whiffed on

seriously - how do you whiff multiple times with multiple first round picks and not be incompetent? Let alone 2 years in a row...

Lawrence Phillips, Alex Barron, Robert Thomas, Damione Lewis, Trung candidate, Archuleta, tye hill, Jimmy Kennedy.. And these are just the first rounders.. they don't include players like Dominique Byrd, Claud Wroten, Joe Klopfenstein , Claude Terrell, etc. I can go on if you like but you may need a lot of eye bleach for that.

Those guys were bad but what about these 1st round guys who were also selected while Shaw was with the Rams? Owens, Dickerson, Gray, Lyght, Gilbert, Bettis, Carter, Pace, Wistrom, Jackson, Long...

Your kind of cherry picking some of the worst years and leaving out the other 14 winning years I mentioned. I think your forgetting about Martz and Zigmunts role during those years. I'm not sure that Shaw had his hands in that mess as much as those two did.

I'm not a Shaw fan but like I said he has shown he was capable in the past. The only reason I even pointed that out is because you seem to not believe the Rams were purposely torn down in the early nineties in order to justify a move.

 

[D L]

Secondly, In my 15 years of travels to STL for Rams games I have never seen or met 1 person who considers them self a football Cardinals fan. Point being, there are many more fans from California who are loyal to the team regardless of where they play whereas fans from STL root only for the team that plays in STL.

Really? Criticizing STL fans becuase we don't root for the football Cards? Completely biased and unfair standard you are setting.

It's easy for you to sit there and say St. Louis fans are city first when LA hasn't had a team in the last 20 years. If another team came to LA a few years after the Rams left. Do you still think there would be as many LA Rams fans as there are now? It's posts like these where I have a serious problem with the LA crowd.

 

[BuiltRamTough]

Unfortunately, no. That would be incredible though. If I had enough money and found a good job, I would no doubt move there just for the Rams lol

We're all hardcore fans but really you would move for them? It's just a football team. As much as I want them to come to LA, if they stay in STL I would be sad and depressed for a month then get over it. We're taking our love for the Rams tooo far, that's a dangerous thing. The NFL keeps winning Bc us fans are suckers. Don't let them shit on us even more, have some pride. Besides there's a 60inch HD TV that we could all use to get our kick, the home experience is amazing.

My point is there's more to life then sports.

 

[Hacksaw]

A job or a place? Lol

Or some fine ladies?

 

[Legatron4]

We're all hardcore fans but really you would move for them? It's just a football team. As much as I want them to come to LA, if they stay in STL I would be sad and depressed for a month then get over it. We're taking our love for the Rams tooo far, that's a dangerous thing. The NFL keeps winning Bc us fans are suckers. Don't let them crap on us even more, have some pride. Besides there's a 60inch HD TV that we could all use to get our kick, the home experience is amazing.

My point is there's more to life then sports.

I mean, sure. To be able to see my team play live every week and be apart of it would be amazing. Life is short, might as well dedicate it to something.

 

[RAMbler]

I haven't forgotten, I just get confused as to why there is still so many LA fans after she shafted you. I realize this is a poor analogy, but to me it's like stalking your ex wife after she cheated on you and told you to get lost, you aren't good enough.

That is certainly how I would take the Rams leaving. Why would I follow, or why would you follow, a team that pisses on you as a fan and on your city? Especially a Stan Kroenke owned team, as he was one of the people who pissed on you. If the Cardinals come back here, it needs to be someone other than a Bidwell as owner.

Of course, IMO, YMMV, etc.

If you can't see it, then you will never see it. The team did not piss on us, the owner did. We love the Rams. We hate the woman...... that simple.

We love the Horns first and will follow them anywhere....., Period. Can't make it any simpler then that.

GO RAMS !!!

 

[blue4]

If you can't see it, then you will never see it. The team did not pee pee on us, the owner did. We love the Rams. We hate the woman...... that simple.

We love the Horns first and will follow them anywhere....., Period. Can't make it any simpler then that.

GO RAMS !!!

I'll never see it. You are probably right about that. I can see that mentality if they stay in your town after threatening to leave, but if they move? The mind can only compartmentalize or overlook so much. At least in my case.

 

[RAMbler]

I'll never see it. You are probably right about that. I can see that mentality if they stay in your town after threatening to leave, but if they move? The mind can only compartmentalize or overlook so much. At least in my case.

I can respect that. But for me.... I'll bleed blue & gold til the very end.

 

[RamFan503]

I can imagine what it felt like to lose a team - however i take issue when someone say's St.Louis is city first and not loyal to the team.... That would be the exact opposite of what Peacock has been doing and saying. "Stan can move to LA if he wants - go ahead, just don't take our team." sounds loyal to the team to me

As to Shaw - I never followed the LA saga (too young, was 10 when they moved)...However I don't think Shaw intentionally destroyed the team - I don't think he knew how to build one or sustain one. Look at how he ran the team after Vermeil left - right back into the ground again.

I don't think his intentions were malicious as much as they were incompetent

I'd wholeheartedly agree that Shaw was incompetent as far as building an NFL team. He had no business being in a position of running and NFL franchise. So in that end, I would agree. What they did though was get rid of anyone that would stand in the way of Georgia's lifestyle and also those that were star players before the move if their contracts were in the offing at the time. Many of us have voiced our disdain for the Ziggy Shaw circus act that followed the Rams to St Louis and St Louis fans suffered along with us through much of those early guaranteed sell out early seasons in the Lou. '99 was catching lightning in a bottle and not about Shaw being even a decent prez.

I also don't find anything the St Louis fans nor Peacock having done as being anything but loyal to the Rams. That is what sucks the most in my opinion.

 

[8to12]

Really? Criticizing STL fans becuase we don't root for the football Cards? Completely biased and unfair standard you are setting.

It's easy for you to sit there and say St. Louis fans are city first when LA hasn't had a team in the last 20 years. If another team came to LA a few years after the Rams left. Do you still think there would be as many LA Rams fans as there are now? It's posts like these where I have a serious problem with the LA crowd.

Don't put words in my mouth. I wasn't criticizing anyone. I was making arguments in opposition to Legatron's assertion that STL needs the Rams more than LA.

If I offended you I am sorry. I try to be respectful to those in STL who may possibly lose the team to relocation. Maybe today I overstepped my bounds. It was not my intention.

 

[nighttrain]

Don't put words in my mouth. I wasn't criticizing anyone. I was making arguments in opposition to Legatron's assertion that STL needs the Rams more than LA.

If I offended you I am sorry. I try to be respectful to those in STL who may possibly lose the team to relocation. Maybe today I overstepped my bounds. It was not my intention.

I grew up in LA a Rams fan, moved to Iowa in 96, a year after the Rams
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