New: Latest on Kroenke, Rams and NFL in STL

[bluecoconuts]

Two quotes from: http://www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archives/2011/12/4761_nfl_establishes.html

• As under G-3, teams can repay the loan with club seat money they normally would have had to share with the league. They can now also use incremental regular ticket revenue, defined as the difference between ticket sales in the new stadium and average sales in the last three years of the old one.

Teams looking to build new stadiums without paying for them themselves are, naturally, thrilled — since this is money that they wouldn't normally get to keep anyway, it's effectively a grant, not a loan. (Unless club seat and ticket sales come in below projections, in which case they're on the hook for the difference.)

Don't they then get a smaller cut from the revenue sharing?

 

[ChrisW]

Don't they then get a smaller cut from the revenue sharing?

I think there's multiple ways of paying it back. I've heard that the shared revenue can be used as well.

 

[blue4]

Couple of thoughts on various posts over the last three pages or so. .

I'm not sure St Louis has the hotel space for a SB. I'm not sure what the criteria for that is.

Our situation is very different from the Vikings. I don't know of anyone who actually thought they were leaving.

I don't buy into the Stan is a victim of STL insincerity, as I haven't seen any sign of him being much sincere himself. As bluecoconuts pointed out, actually trying to work with STL before immediately holding the gun to our head would have resulted in a better deal for him here IMO. Sure, it would have taken longer, but I think he could have wrangled just about what he wanted just by owning that LA land he bought a couple of years ago. IMO, he's viewed STL as his safety net.

If one of the NFL teams doesn't snap Peacock up after this is over, it would be a big waste of talent IMO. The guy has taken an unwilling owner, a hostile state senate and a leery county tax base and he's getting close to knocking out Goliath. For FREAKING FREE. Unbelievable.

I have to say the video monitors in a rendering do not cause me much concern. This stadium's design and being on the riverfront looks like an instant iconic facility to me.

 

[iced]

No, I factored that into Stan's 450 million, because he has to pay that back. That article is also from January, it is not reall7y relevant today with different factors changing. I saw something the other day that said as much as 405 million (something around that) coming from the public. I'll have to go back and look for the article, but I saw it within the last few days. I'm assuming that is from the extension of the bonds and the PSLs (which go to the city I believe, not Stan), and after the county was pulled out from financing they said the owners input may have to go up.

That article was also directly from the task force - and I haven't seen anything that asks for more than $200 or $250 from Kroenke. Which is why I pointed out when you were trying to do the math for the bonds...

and I think I know what article you were talking about - which another key point, the bonds weren't $405.. It was $400 to $500 million, or so that article's guess was

Except there's a difference between parking your team plane at LAX and going on a public visit of the city, and buying land and developing a stadium. Nobody else (other than the Carson issue now) announced they were building a stadium, bought land, and got everything ready to build.

Exactly..

without the pressure by LA - no other owners would have their home markets working like this... hell even Spanos said had it not been for stan they'd spend another year working with San Diego

And yes, I know he can use that land for something else, but it's still far more than what other teams did so it's not really a good comparison.

It's a terrible comparison. Why? Because how many other owners are in real estate like stan? Completely changes the playing field

If Stan really wanted to get a great deal in St Louis then he would be better off working with them instead of trying to just create leverage and not do anything else.

Because this strategy had success before with arbitration? No.

Hence leverage - while also helping solving 2 fellow owners fix their stadium issues. Lot of people like to theorize that the owners talk a lot behind closed doors - better believe this has been brought up if that's the case.

Again, collectively whats best for all 32.

At the end of the day he's still paying at least 450 million dollars, still not owning the stadium, still not owning the land, still not operating the stadium, still not getting as much of the profits back to him, so what the freak is he doing? Are we all going to sit around and say the Stan is that bad of a negotiator? Yes the stadium got a facelift, but the things that people say are important to him, owning everything including the dirt, hasn't budged an inch.

I beg to differ on the profits - every team evenly splits the TV revenue and ticket sales are split 60/40 to home/away team...And that TV revenue is the one of the biggest sources, if not the biggest, of revenue for the NFL.

You really think the owners are going collectively do whats best for one business man instead of 32? Let Alone Kroenke himself? Please.

 

[beej]

It's grown from the initial proposal, yes, but what we saw yesterday and what we saw a few months ago doesn't show major changes. So you have to think that the leverage has done what it intended to do. There weren't radical changes, so what is changing is likely smaller details. That's stuff you don't need major leverage for to work out, that's part of the negotiations. If LA is a leverage play, then I don't see the point of continuing to push it, because I don't see much else changing. Unless St Louis is willing to give on the owner/operator aspect of it, which given the fact that they will own and operate it is a big selling point for public funds is unlikely, then I'm not sure what else Stan needs from St Louis.

He's going to keep pushing it because leverage only works as long as you're actually willing to follow through with the threat of moving. That's why this "might\might not" be leverage. I've gone out and found a different job before with better pay. And when I told the boss I was quitting for higher pay. It put it all on him to keep me. I was fine going or staying. sort of leverage, sort of not.

 

[iced]

no matter how you slice it @bluecoconuts , the numbers are not as high as yours

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...e2f516-dfb8-11e4-b6d7-b9bc8acf16f7_story.html

Bonds paying for the dome, which opened in 1995, are still being paid off. The plan for the new stadium calls for extending that bond debt, which could provide up to $350 million. Kroenke and the NFL would also be asked to help pay for the new stadium. Personal seat licenses would provide up to $130 million of the cost.

stadium cost: 985
985 - 480 = 505. take out the G4 loan, which is $200 to $250, and kroenke ends up paying $305 or $255.

 

[Dxmissile]

Couple of thoughts on various posts over the last three pages or so. .

I'm not sure St Louis has the hotel space for a SB. I'm not sure what the criteria for that is.

Our situation is very different from the Vikings. I don't know of anyone who actually thought they were leaving.

I don't buy into the Stan is a victim of STL insincerity, as I haven't seen any sign of him being much sincere himself. As bluecoconuts pointed out, actually trying to work with STL before immediately holding the gun to our head would have resulted in a better deal for him here IMO. Sure, it would have taken longer, but I think he could have wrangled just about what he wanted just by owning that LA land he bought a couple of years ago. IMO, he's viewed STL as his safety net.

If one of the NFL teams doesn't snap Peacock up after this is over, it would be a big waste of talent IMO. The guy has taken an unwilling owner, a hostile state senate and a leery county tax base and he's getting close to knocking out Goliath. For FREAKING FREE. Unbelievable.

I have to say the video monitors in a rendering do not cause me much concern. This stadium's design and being on the riverfront looks like an instant iconic facility to me.

We have more or the same hotel space than Indianapolis. Have you seen downtown st louis

 

[beej]

no matter how you slice it @bluecoconuts , the numbers are not as high as yours

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...e2f516-dfb8-11e4-b6d7-b9bc8acf16f7_story.html


stadium cost: 985
985 - 480 = 505. take out the G4 loan, which is $200 to $250, and kroenke ends up paying $305 or $255.

that seems like a no-brainer deal. He could take a fraction of the money he was going to spend in LA and buy all that ground that Paul McKee has been buying up, which is just across the highway from the new stadium and he would become Mr St Louis.

 

[rams2050]

Demoff essentially confirmed he is indeed looking to move to LA with his recent interviews, so I'd say that issue is settled. Yes, it could all be a bluff, but when someone keeps telling you something I think you start to listen.

This is soooooo NOT true. Demoff continues to hedge his bets, parse each word he uses, and obfuscate by various means those things that DO seem to come out relatively clearly. He is the ultimate #2 Man in the Organization -- doing just what his handler (#1 Man) wants him to do, and doing it in such a way that his audience, be it in LA or STL, is left to wonder what in the hell does he REALLY mean?

I'm telling you, no one can know if Stan truly wants to move to LA. The ONLY person who can possibly know this is Stan himself, and, perhaps, Mrs. Stan. And I'm not too sure he's even told her what he's thinking or up to in this regard.

For all intents and purposes -- and this is crucial to today's situation -- DEMOFF MAY ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT STAN TRULY DOES WANT TO MOVE.

But I reiterate: Does that mean that Stan wants to move?

Or, is Stan doing what is best for Stan's best interests by keeping Demoff out of this loop so that he has plausible deniability of Stan's real intention of remaining in St. Louis??

Or, and I still believe that this really is the case, are Demoff and Stan in this plot up to their eyebrows? With BOTH of them knowing that Stan wants to stay?

I tend toward believing the latter because Demoff, after all, did say, "Things are going to get a LOT worse (regarding the Rams and the stadium situation) before they get better." And Demoff said that NOT to a LA sports or business reporter, but to a STL reporter. As if he were advising the reporter to 'batten down the hatches, tough sailing ahead.'

And yet despite the dire warning he did finish up with this: "BEFORE they get BETTER!"

And what could be better than keeping the Rams here in a spiffy new stadium??

 

[blue4]

We have more or the same hotel space than Indianapolis. Have you seen downtown st louis

I work downtown. That's why I'm wondering. I don't know if they consider suburban hotels, but there's no way downtown itself could handle it. Suburban hotels, sure. I just wonder if it's a mileage range they consider.

 

[RamBill]

Dave Peacock, the point man of Missouri Gov. Jay Nixon’s St. Louis stadium task force, presented the St. Louis stadium plan to the NFL earlier this week. Peacock joined The Hollywood Casino Press Box on Friday to talk about the presentation and give an update on the project’s progress and the future of the NFL in St. Louis.

Listen to Peacock Talk STL Stadium

 

[blue4]

This is soooooo NOT true. Demoff continues to hedge his bets, parse each word he uses, and obfuscate by various means those things that DO seem to come out relatively clearly. He is the ultimate #2 Man in the Organization -- doing just what his handler (#1 Man) wants him to do, and doing it in such a way that his audience, be it in LA or STL, is left to wonder what in the hell does he REALLY mean?

I'm telling you, no one can know if Stan truly wants to move to LA. The ONLY person who can possibly know this is Stan himself, and, perhaps, Mrs. Stan. And I'm not too sure he's even told her what he's thinking or up to in this regard.

For all intents and purposes -- and this is crucial to today's situation -- DEMOFF MAY ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT STAN TRULY DOES WANT TO MOVE.

But I reiterate: Does that mean that Stan wants to move?

Or, is Stan doing what is best for Stan's best interests by keeping Demoff out of this loop so that he has plausible deniability of Stan's real intention of remaining in St. Louis??

Or, and I still believe that this really is the case, are Demoff and Stan in this plot up to their eyebrows? With BOTH of them knowing that Stan wants to stay?

I tend toward believing the latter because Demoff, after all, did say, "Things are going to get a LOT worse (regarding the Rams and the stadium situation) before they get better." And Demoff said that NOT to a LA sports or business reporter, but to a STL reporter. As if he were advising the reporter to 'batten down the hatches, tough sailing ahead.'

And yet despite the dire warning he did finish up with this: "BEFORE they get BETTER!"

And what could be better than keeping the Rams here in a spiffy new stadium??

I don't think we can take anything Demoff, the NFL, or the mayors of Carson or Inglewood say without a heaping pile of salt. Even Peacock isn't going to dole out bad news. We'll know when the owners walk out with the verdict from on high.

 

[RamBill]

Progress on stadium front, but will Kroenke play ball?
• By Jim Thomas

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/foot...cle_b3d3ce6c-bc82-5568-9f8e-6a632e18b3e7.html

While conceding there's a lot of work to be done, Dave Peacock and Bob Blitz expressed growing confidence that the St. Louis stadium plan will have all the boxes checked to meet NFL approval in the fall.

But as they pointed out on more than one occasion during a media update Friday, then it's up to Stan Kroenke and the Rams.

"We're gonna take it to a point, but we've got to be met halfway," said Peacock, the former Anheuser-Bush executive. "We've been clear from January, and we didn't change in this message, that we're trying to get somewhere in the $400 million range in public funding."

An additional $150 million will come through sales of personal seat licenses.

"And then we expect $450 million in team and league (money), which is private funding," Peacock said. "This will get us to a point, and then it's meet us halfway and this project progresses."

Of that $450 million, the St. Louis stadium group wants $250 million from Rams owner Stan Kroenke. If that's the case, the league will chip in $200 million from its G4 stadium loan program.

Add it all together, and you come up with the roughly $1 billion price tag for a riverfront stadium on the north edge of downtown.

Will Kroenke be willing to participate if the St. Louis stadium plan is indeed finalized?

"We have not had direct discussion with Stan Kroenke about that," Peacock said Friday. "But the league in our discussions, and Kevin Demoff when he sat through our meetings, are all very aware of our construct from the financing standpoint."

In other words, there can be no new stadium built without the private financing, and without a commitment that there will be an NFL team in St. Louis beyond the 2015 season. Kroenke seems intent on moving the Rams to Los Angeles, and has been working diligently on a $1.8 billion stadium project in Inglewood, Calif.

Peacock said getting the public piece of the money _ the $400 million _ in place by the fall is achievable.

"We can do it," he said. "There won't be money in an account come the fall, but there certainly should be a clear understanding of sources and how those sources can be released. But again, we want $450 million in private investment. So we have to be met halfway before there's any releasing of public money.

"We're not building a stadium and hoping a team comes, or stays."

 

[beej]

sounds like Peacock is to the point where is going to need some commitment. should get interesting.

 

[Dxmissile]

Yeah that is a good question but even if its let's say 15-20 miles then that should be more than enough most of the county hotels are within that mile range

 

[dbrooks25]

Dave Peacock coming up on 101 espn in the next few minutes.

 

[Hacksaw]

Well there has been a nice bump in StL stock the last couple of days since the meeting on the 22nd. Props!!

But what has changed? Do we know anymore than we did after the last meeting when Stan released his Inglewood plan and everyone freaked out? Stan is still pitching it. The financials on Carson and N Riverfront are still unknown.
I agree that Stan started this stadium race with the announcement of his purchase and then his plan to build an 80,000 seat stadium. This forced SD/Oak and especially StL to finally get off their butts and make noise. StL has made the most noise for sure and in a very short period of time too. Had they not fought him over the last 5 to 7 years since GF passed this thread or threat would not exist today.

Carson.
Spanos/ Davis threw together a plan designed to put a last gasp leverage play against SD / Oakland. Also and perhaps equally important, they did it to stop Stan from taking back a presumed 25% of SD's supposed market share in LA. Right.
The site had already been considered and it had a lot of ground work already done. This made for a quicker catch up but it seems fairly certain this was not their initial plan or desire. Still the latest rendering appears to be "doing LA right"
The toxic environmental issues not withstanding anything.
This plan hoses 2 fan bases and will cost the league a bent bylaw and roughly $400mm in G4 cash.
It also forces a realignment in 2 divisions that are extremely well established. Our team being one of them.

Inglewood
Perhaps Stan was looking for leverage himself,, and creating more options. As we've discussed ad-nauseum, he like to own his digs or at least control the revenue streams. Forbes doubles to triples the values. Huge fan base / population yada yada. The fact that LA could be used for leverage is proof in itself that the city is a prize.
Stan has the money, sees the money, exhausted what he thought was exhausting the possibilities and appears to want to return the Rams to their former hometown of nearly half a century. To not see that is simply turning a blind eye.
He has likely been working on this longer than we knew as evidenced by the fact that he is quite a ways ahead in the planning phase. And no contest in the funding phase.
He brings a total NFL sports experience to LA (City of Champions) which can house NFL Films, NFL west, the draft and many Superbowl's. A wourl class state of the art stadium that had some members of the league grinning. Doing LA right in spades.
Whether he get's the nod to go is ever changing though but IMO if he could have left yesterday, he would have.
LA doesn't need this stadium as much as many say StL does theirs so that should be considered too.

North Riverfront Stadium
A huge improvement over the EJD. I almost want them to stay because of the old school look of the place, the grass, the open air and it really cleans up a funky part of StL town in a nice way. Why the heck hadn't it been cleaned this up before this if it is so important to everyone?
NRS appears to have scaled up (like Carson did in a big way) since the Inglewood proposal made them look scrawny.
The improvements to NRS are cool, but the boat docks we're the bomb and they are gone now.
The NRS appears from what I reading to be necessary for StL to keep their big boy pants on. Being from LA I don't feel that but I believe this is part of the reason why StL fans take their 3 big league sports teams more seriously than LA fan. Sports are probably more important to StL fan.
The funding thing is the bugaboo and even KD didn't have an answer to that today. There is nothing much to offer Stan due to the financial structure and strength there, and if the latest financial plan is the final target plan, then the NFL is coughing up another $200mm (w Carson that pushing $2/3 BB in loans) with Stan kicking in twice that. Gotta fix that guys. Don't go CVC or it will be too late if it already isn't.


StL and Carson will have some time now to get the dollar ducks in a row if and if they are able to, StL could be happy, SD / Oakland not so much, and despite what you might think, LA fan (especially Ramfan) not so much either.
The fact that the NFL can go about screwing fans anywhere has been exposed. We are all paying attention as their leverage game was also exposed and they even admitted it.

Obviously for the league it is more financially attractive to let Stan walk and get paid the NFL relocate fee and save the $600mm+ in one descicion. Whether it's better for Stan I can't guess as I'm not privy to his level of revenues.
From the emotional / pain level POV , the fewest fans to get hurt today would be to blow off LA again which I somewhat expect will happen.
Secondarily, and not dissing you guys in StL, the next fewest fans getting dinged is if only the Rams move. This also helps keep the screws to SD and Oak to get something done in those towns respectfully now that those teams got their cities attention.

Lastly, I noticed Peacock seems to be getting credit for some of Nixon's doings too. Nixon appointed Peacock to form the task force, the MO. legislature canned Silvey's bill (for now) not just Peacock and he worked to remove the county from the equation. Not to take anything away from Peacock, but Nixon should be given credit where credit is due.

 

[Isiah58]

Progress on stadium front, but will Kroenke play ball?
• By Jim Thomas

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/foot...cle_b3d3ce6c-bc82-5568-9f8e-6a632e18b3e7.html

While conceding there's a lot of work to be done, Dave Peacock and Bob Blitz expressed growing confidence that the St. Louis stadium plan will have all the boxes checked to meet NFL approval in the fall.

But as they pointed out on more than one occasion during a media update Friday, then it's up to Stan Kroenke and the Rams.

"We're gonna take it to a point, but we've got to be met halfway," said Peacock, the former Anheuser-Bush executive. "We've been clear from January, and we didn't change in this message, that we're trying to get somewhere in the $400 million range in public funding."

An additional $150 million will come through sales of personal seat licenses.

"And then we expect $450 million in team and league (money), which is private funding," Peacock said. "This will get us to a point, and then it's meet us halfway and this project progresses."

Of that $450 million, the St. Louis stadium group wants $250 million from Rams owner Stan Kroenke. If that's the case, the league will chip in $200 million from its G4 stadium loan program.

Add it all together, and you come up with the roughly $1 billion price tag for a riverfront stadium on the north edge of downtown.

Will Kroenke be willing to participate if the St. Louis stadium plan is indeed finalized?

"We have not had direct discussion with Stan Kroenke about that," Peacock said Friday. "But the league in our discussions, and Kevin Demoff when he sat through our meetings, are all very aware of our construct from the financing standpoint."

In other words, there can be no new stadium built without the private financing, and without a commitment that there will be an NFL team in St. Louis beyond the 2015 season. Kroenke seems intent on moving the Rams to Los Angeles, and has been working diligently on a $1.8 billion stadium project in Inglewood, Calif.

Peacock said getting the public piece of the money _ the $400 million _ in place by the fall is achievable.

"We can do it," he said. "There won't be money in an account come the fall, but there certainly should be a clear understanding of sources and how those sources can be released. But again, we want $450 million in private investment. So we have to be met halfway before there's any releasing of public money.

"We're not building a stadium and hoping a team comes, or stays."

To me, this is the most interesting aspect of the entire process.

The Riverside stadium cannot be built without Stan Kroenke. This individual can (and very well might) singularly block the entire project. All the pretty pictures and the plans are for naught if Stan elects to say "nope." The NFL may try to block him from moving to LA, but if Stan abides by the NFL's wishes then he can simply go back to the dome on his year-to-year lease. Why would he do this?

Well, he may not have the 24 votes needed to relocate, but realistically all he needs is 9. With 9 votes, he can block San Diego from leaving as well. I find it very hard to believe that Kroenke didn't go into this venture with at least 9 votes. In this situation, no team relocates and LA doesn't get a team for 2016. Stan knows that he is the only owner who (allegedly) doesn't want to make a deal with his current city. Maybe San Diego or Oakland gets something done with more time, and then Carson is more precarious. Maybe Stan thinks with more time he can get the votes he needs the following year with more lobbying. Who knows? But the fact is that if SK doesn't want the new STL stadium built, then it doesn't get built. And the longer he remains a "free agent," renting the dome from year to year, the more tiresome the STL fan base will get with the constant speculation about the Rams leaving.

I recognize most people would consider this "cutting off your nose to spite your face." Not sure what makes SK more money - the dome or the new stadium. I'm just saying that Stan losing his bid doesn't automatically equal new stadium. I also do not believe that he will sell the team. Owning an NFL team is like finding a golden ticket from Willy Wonka. There are far fewer teams than men who want to own them. You cannot just say, "sell the Rams and buy the Broncos or the Raiders," like he can control those things. No one can guarantee that he would be the top bidder or be assured of acquiring another team. And since I believe he very much likes being in this club he's bought his way into, I think Rams fans everywhere are stuck with Mr. Kroenke for the near future.

The other issue that hasn't been talked about much concerns the new Atlanta stadium. It already is going to cost half a billion dollars OVER its original $1B estimate.

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2015/04/atlanta_falcons_new_stadium_co.html

The reason I mention this is because it seems the STL stadium proposal is stretched pretty tight and if they do put together a financing plan it seems like it is going include feeling under the couch cushions for loose change. It is pure speculation on my part, but it seems like a similar five hundred million dollar cost overrun on the Riverside stadium could doom the project as well. If nothing else, it would seem that such an overrun could best be absorbed by the Inglewood plan as opposed to the STL plan. Then again, maybe there are protections in place for such a contingency and this is not a big deal.

Does anyone else think that if Stan has at least 9 votes, he will try to block the Chargers and/or the Raiders from moving to LA? Could we be having this same conversation next year at this time? God forbid.

Isiah 58

 

[Young Ram]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ell-la-stadium-plans-are-viable-very-exciting

Goodell: L.A. stadium plans are 'viable,' 'very exciting'
The return of the NFL to Los Angeles continues to gather momentum.

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell said Friday that the two stadium projects in the L.A. area are "viable" and that plans in Inglewood and Carson have a "great deal of potential to be successful."


"We had presentations earlier this week that are very exciting," Goodell told The Associated Press. "Not just for a return but to continue being successful going forward."

The NFL hasn't had a team in Los Angeles, the city's second-largest media market, since the Rams and Raiders left town following the 1994 season. Rams owner Stan Kroenke is connected to the $1.8 billion Inglewood project, while the Raiders and Chargers are working together on the $1.7 billion project in Carson.

The deadline to formally apply for a move to Los Angeles is January, though that window could be moved up, according to Goodell. No team can move unless the owners vote in favor of relocation. A vote could occur at the NFL Annual Meeting next March.

The Chargers and Raiders stressed that they will attempt to work out new stadium deals in their current home regions. In a joint statement released in February, the teams explained they "intend to move down two tracks simultaneously."

Meanwhile, a St. Louis-based stadium task force met with league officials on Wednesday, according to the AP. The group showed the NFL plans to build a new stadium along the Mississippi River at the cost of approximately $1 billion.

The question for Rams supporters in St. Louis is whether Kroenke can be swayed from his Los Angeles vision.

 

[Dick84]

I understand when people take me to task for saying I know Stan wants to move. I get it. Doesn't change my viewpoint, obviously.

The stuff I find positively hysterical is when people try to break down which deal is more financially lucrative to Stan.

HOW WOULD ANY OF US KNOW??????????????

Do you have the market research on both ends? Because I sure don't.

Read the Santa Clara numbers and find your own conclusions. LA has twice as many people and many big companies.