New: Latest on Kroenke, Rams and NFL in STL

[dieterbrock]

Don't they have to alter flight patterns near a few stadiums during football games? And shouldn't the FAA be the ones coming up with these reports - not a rival in the great stadium race?

NY Giants/Jets stadium is a stone's throw away from Newark International airport and across the river from JFK Airport. If they can prevent traffic flow during game days, I cant see how LA cant

 

[ZigZagRam]

NY Giants/Jets stadium is a stone's throw away from Newark International airport and across the river from JFK Airport. If they can prevent traffic flow during game days, I cant see how LA cant

Hollywood Park is 2.5 miles from LAX, while MetLife Stadium is approx. 13.5 miles from Newark International.

Also according to Jim Thomas on the radio this morning, Hollywood Park is in the direct path of two of LAX's four runways. You won't be able to prevent that flow within 2.5 miles of LAX. Half of all incoming flights will be flying over the Hollywood Park stadium.

If the FAA does indeed clear the property then none of this really matters in the end though.

 

[ChrisW]

A team source told FOX 2 that even with all the news about the Rams possibly moving to Los Angeles, ticket sales and season ticket renewals for 2015 were ahead of 2014.

Good for the St. Louis fans if they are buying more season tickets. That'll take away Kroenke claiming bad fan support. #Fillthedome

 

[dieterbrock]

Hollywood Park is 2.5 miles from LAX, while MetLife Stadium is approx. 13.5 miles from Newark International.

Also according to Jim Thomas on the radio this morning, Hollywood Park is in the direct path of two of LAX's four runways. You won't be able to prevent that flow within 2.5 miles of LAX. Half of all incoming flights will be flying over the Hollywood Park stadium.

If the FAA does indeed clear the property then none of this really matters in the end though.

Maybe by car its 13.5 miles but on a direct line its 10 miles at most
Non starter IMO

 

[drasconis]

Hollywood Park is 2.5 miles from LAX, while MetLife Stadium is approx. 13.5 miles from Newark International.

Also according to Jim Thomas on the radio this morning, Hollywood Park is in the direct path of two of LAX's four runways. You won't be able to prevent that flow within 2.5 miles of LAX. Half of all incoming flights will be flying over the Hollywood Park stadium.

If the FAA does indeed clear the property then none of this really matters in the end though.

In the end I doubt there really isa safety concern that stops it or that the FAA wouldn't end up clearing it. I am curious as to the game experience though. I am wondering what the sound level is of those planes at that point in the path? Honestly have no clue, just curious if the noise might affect the game experience (not the game play).

 

[dieterbrock]

IMO, its the 3rd set and St louis leads 2 sets to 1

 

[ZigZagRam]

Maybe by car its 13.5 miles but on a direct line its 10 miles at most
Non starter IMO

The distance is one thing, but being in the direct approach of 2 of 4 runways is the bigger deal to in my opinion.

That's not a problem at MetLife.

 

[bluecoconuts]

In the end I doubt there really isa safety concern that stops it or that the FAA wouldn't end up clearing it. I am curious as to the game experience though. I am wondering what the sound level is of those planes at that point in the path? Honestly have no clue, just curious if the noise might affect the game experience (not the game play).

80,000 fans? You won't be able to hear a thing, plus it's not open air, it's a retractable roof, so it'll keep noise in even more.

 

[ZigZagRam]

80,000 fans? You won't be able to hear a thing, plus it's not open air, it's a retractable roof, so it'll keep noise in even more.

The retractable roof isn't a sure thing according to the stadium initiative.

Also, have you ever been to a Mets game at Citi Field? It's very distracting when planes are flying over, and it happens with much less frequency it Citi than it would in Inglewood. Not the same atmosphere but the crowd isn't roaring throughout a football game either.

It's a valid concern.

 

[bluecoconuts]

The retractable roof isn't a sure thing according to the stadium initiative.

Also, have you ever been to a Mets game at Citi Field? It's very distracting when planes are flying over, and it happens with much less frequency it Citi than it would in Inglewood. Not the same atmosphere but the crowd isn't roaring throughout a football game either.

It's a valid concern.

Levi's stadium is 3 miles away from San Jose international airport directly in the flight path for planes taking off, and the FAA said they'll work with them on the flight paths if needed (as in crowd noise doesn't cover it up)... I haven't heard anything from them since the season started, nor have I heard anything about it from fans.

LAX can have flights take off and land from the west if it's a huge problem, the important thing is that they take off into the wind, which is almost always from the west. However the way the run ways are oriented, the planes wont be directly overheard like they are for Levi's stadium, they'll be on the other side of the entire park, or slightly north.

Either way, I don't think it's a big enough concern to either stop from being able to build, or convince them otherwise. I never heard anyone complain about flights when going to the Forum (on the north side of the property) either.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Honestly, I don't know details, but I've never had to circle or anything around LAX waiting to land, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but you'd have to imagine the circle would be much wider than 3 miles out, it's not like these planes can take turns that sharp, so (and just a guess) they'd probably rather them circle over the ocean, assuming weather allows it (which there's probably a better than 95% chance it does).

However wind direction does have final say over takeoff/landing direction, and there have been times that they have reversed it, but it's something they really dislike doing, only if there are extremely high winds would they do that, and it's more likely they'd have both landings and takeoffs done over the ocean than the city.

OK... that's just not true.

I live near one of the largest airporst in the nation and winds change direction constantly.

Flipping from taking off toward the south and moving it to the north is accomplished in half and hour and is a very regular occurence. In many cases. that changes happens two... three times a day!

Airports are very used to it and it is NOT tied to wind velocity. I've seen them change it at 5 MPH.

As far as noise, I remember going to events at the old Shea Staduim, right in the path of incoming AND outgoing from LaGuardia... yes, it is extremely annoying!
You can't have a conversation with the person sitting next to you.

These are facts....

 

[Rmfnlt]

The distance is one thing, but being in the direct approach of 2 of 4 runways is the bigger deal to in my opinion.

That's not a problem at MetLife.

Correct.

Comparing 13 (or even 10) miles to 2.5... comparing direct path to off-path...

It's simply apples and oranges.

If that stadium is 2.5 miles from the runway and, depending on wind pattersn (and no, I do not believe the FAA can "work" with them on wind patterns, planes need that for lift... maybe there's a pilot here that can add more color to this), I can assure you that it will be very, very loud and nowhere comparable to MetLife.

Your comparison to CitiField is much closer and - yes - it's a major pain in the ear.

 

[rick6fan]

I'm no expert on flight patterns, and I don't know exactly where the proposed stadiums are, but this website tracks all flights in and around LAX. Someone with more time than me might be able to determine something from this.

 

[bluecoconuts]

OK... that's just not true.

I live near one of the largest airporst in the nation and winds change direction constantly.

Flipping from taking off toward the south and moving it to the north is accomplished in half and hour and is a very regular occurence. In many cases. that changes happens two... three times a day!

Airports are very used to it and it is NOT tied to wind velocity. I've seen them change it at 5 MPH.

As far as noise, I remember going to events at the old Shea Staduim, right in the path of incoming AND outgoing from LaGuardia... yes, it is extremely annoying!
You can't have a conversation with the person sitting next to you.

These are facts....

LAX takes off to the west and lands from the east, they're pretty open about not liking to change that because it's a lot of work and it causes delays. Most airports in California are oriented from west to east due to the way the winds blow. Comparing the winds in Los Angeles to the winds in New York is pointless because they are vastly different, the winds in the north east are much more erratic than in the south west.

You can see for yourself.
http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-101.13,31.52,289


As for LAX going off of wind and not liking to change it, here's an article, right from them:

Wind is the determining factor. Airplanes have to take off and land into the wind. That is why runways at LAX and most other Southern California airports run east to west, said Richard Cox, manager of Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON), the radar facility on Imperial Highway that works with the LAX control tower.

Planes Head West

Usually, planes approach LAX along three major lanes from the east, north and south, with a few approaching from the Pacific Ocean. They are directed into two landing files that descend from the east over Inglewood or Lennox to the airport, Andersen said.

For takeoffs, the normal pattern is for planes to head west over the ocean. Those that have eastern destinations go north or south to flight paths that do not interfere with incoming traffic.

The Palmdale center regulates the flow of incoming planes above 13,000 feet and more than 40 miles away; TRACON tracks the planes between 5 and 40 miles away; and the Los Angeles control tower handles them once they are within 5 miles.

"And we all keep an eye on the weather," Andersen said. "We'll coordinate well in advance. We might say, 'Tomorrow we'll probably be turning the airport around at noon.' "

If the wind starts coming out of the east, reaches at least 10 knots and remains constant, the Los Angeles control tower makes a decision that involves Burbank airport, Ontario airport, John Wayne Airport and the control center at the El Toro Marine Air Station in south Orange County. The intricate process of reversing and rearranging air traffic, which started about 9 a.m. Thursday, takes about 15 minutes, officials said.

"Imagine a string of airplanes for 200 miles," said Dick Deeds of the Air Line Pilots Assn. "Sometimes at L.A. it's as long as 800 miles from the east. And all of a sudden those airplanes can't land for a while. It starts compressing like a spring."

A Headache for Controllers

The airport turnaround procedure is more of a headache for controllers than for pilots, Deed said, but pilots prefer the usual landing and takeoff approaches because they are used to them.

Officials designate the last airplane that will depart to the west and the first that will arrive from the west. Some planes are placed on holding patterns; others are held on the ground. Air space is reconfigured so that incoming flights from the east skirt LAX to the north and south, and approach from over the ocean. Departures are routed on eastward takeoff paths that vary, depending on the weather and the volume of air traffic, Cox said.

"It's not like they go as far as the Harbor Freeway every time and then turn," he said. "It all depends on the amount of traffic."

Cox and Andersen said the procedure is complicated and infrequent but poses no danger to travelers. It's toughest when the wind changes and strengthens suddenly, Andersen said.

"If it picks up to 15 to 20 knots we've got to do it quickly," he said. "Sometimes we'll have less than five minutes."

One advantage of the normal east-to-west pattern is that takeoffs, which are noisier than landings, occur mostly over the ocean. Turning the airport around increases noise over Lennox and Inglewood. But airport officials say they do not receive more complaints on such days.

"People know that it usually happens in a storm," said airport spokeswoman Pat Schoneberger. "Most of them know it's for safety and there's nothing we can do about it."

Most people in the area also know the rhythms of the airport well enough that they are not fazed when landing and takeoff directions change, officials said.

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-01-06/local/me-176_1_head-west


So while I was wrong about it being high winds, that's because I figured since they rarely do it, it must require a higher threshold than 10 knots, so the winds in Southern California are apparently more stable than I thought. I've flown out of LAX probably over 100 times, and I'm near the area all the time as well, and I've personally never seen them reverse direction. Obviously it happens, but not often.

LAX is not a problem.

 

[Rmfnlt]

I'm no expert on flight patterns, and I don't know exactly where the proposed stadiums are, but this website tracks all flights in and around LAX. Someone with more time than me might be able to determine something from this.

Cool site!

Now, all we need to do is locate exactly where the stadium is on that map. Certainly looks like prevailing winds are out of the west and it looks like incoming are right over Inglewood.

The terrorist thing is silly to me... but being in a flight path that close is more serious and a very real nuisance, IMO.

 

[ZigZagRam]

Cool site!

Now, all we need to do is locate exactly where the stadium is on that map. Certainly looks like prevailing winds are out of the west and it looks like incoming are right over Inglewood.

The terrorist thing is silly to me... but being in a flight path that close is more serious and a very real nuisance, IMO.

Look a few miles due east and you'll see the race track.

Just saw one plane fly over the forum at 1100 ft.

 

[ZigZagRam]

Another from Dallas flew less than a block south of where the stadium would be at 1,000 ft.

 

[iced]

The terrorist thing is silly to me... but being in a flight path that close is more serious and a very real nuisance, IMO.

I think the terrorist thing is a legit concern -- for home land security; but not as a deterrent for the development of a stadium.

And anyone who doesn't think a Super Bowl near one of the busiest, if not the busiest, airports in the Nation would be an attractive target to terrorists are kidding themselves (did people forget what kind of terrorists we're fighting?)... that being said, that's why we have security measures and teams in place. We don't live in fear, nor should we.

The flight path and noise is curious to me - i'd like to know how that would affect the noise and the game (if any)

 

[Rmfnlt]

LAX takes off to the west and lands from the east, they're pretty open about not liking to change that because it's a lot of work and it causes delays. Most airports in California are oriented from west to east due to the way the winds blow. Comparing the winds in Los Angeles to the winds in New York is pointless because they are vastly different, the winds in the north east are much more erratic than in the south west.

You can see for yourself.
http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-101.13,31.52,289


As for LAX going off of wind and not liking to change it, here's an article, right from them:



http://articles.latimes.com/1989-01-06/local/me-176_1_head-west


So while I was wrong about it being high winds, that's because I figured since they rarely do it, it must require a higher threshold than 10 knots, so the winds in Southern California are apparently more stable than I thought. I've flown out of LAX probably over 100 times, and I'm near the area all the time as well, and I've personally never seen them reverse direction. Obviously it happens, but not often.

LAX is not a problem.

OK... you're stretching things.

Did you actually read that article? If you had, you would have seen this extremely important tidbit:
Airplanes have to take off and land into the wind

That's not a conditional statement... that's a fact.

That "That is why runways at LAX and most other Southern California airports run east to west".

Because those are the PREVAILING winds. Prevalent... most of the times.

However, as soon as the winds change (and I'm sure they do from time to time there), the planes MUST be redirected to take off into the wind.

The real point here is... Inglewood appears to be east of the airport (close priximity) and the prevailing winds are out of the west.

So, most times, planes would be landing right over that stadium. Yes, it will be loud.

Regarding danger... ask any pilot, the most dangerous points in a flight are take-off and landing.

Landing over a stadium filled with 60,000+ people is a risk.

 

[ZigZagRam]

Just had three more in the span of 2 minutes fly over Hollywood Park at 1,000-1,200 feet.

Two more in a span of 30 seconds.

This is riveting.