Miklasz leaving Post-Dispatch

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stop circumventing the profanity filter.

 

[Mojo Ram]

It was a joke. One that won't stand in the New Moral Order,

Nice.

 

[RamzFanz]

Well yes, hurting someone's feelings is harm. Do you not feel like an icehole when you do it? Do you not feel guilty? Are we now only counting physical harm?

Joke or not, it was insensitive and tactless. If he were to say, "Marathons aren't particularly complex, you can tell because Africans always seem to win them and they aren't known for their scholastic achievement." Would that be any different? It's still a "joke" and it's still wrong. And he would deserve every bit of backlash he got.

You're hurting my feelings with your tactless insensitivity!

How dare you compare baseball players to marathoners?!

 

[Mojo Ram]

stop circumventing the profanity filter.

 

[-X-]

The hell did you just call me?

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Well yes, hurting someone's feelings is harm. Do you not feel like an icehole when you do it? Do you not feel guilty? Are we now only counting physical harm?

Joke or not, it was insensitive and tactless. If he were to say, "Marathons aren't particularly complex, you can tell because Africans always seem to win them and they aren't known for their scholastic achievement." Would that be any different? It's still a "joke" and it's still wrong. And he would deserve every bit of backlash he got.

Fuck with getting your feelings hurt. People need to man up! I am trying to teach my son how to be a man and ignore stupid remarks that are only meant to hurt his feelings. I teach him that letting someone affect him with words is giving them control over his emotions. While society tells him that when people say bad things your feelings should be hurt and he should strike back by getting the kid kicked out of school. It's really screwed up. We need to teach people to be stronger not weaker.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. That is right. The world is turning into a big bunch of pussies. This is insane. It was a comment. I'd rather people quit being victims all the time. Society is evolving to think litigation and vindication is all that matters. If The Dominican Republic doesn't want to be called stupid then they need to work to change that image. If the guy that broke into my house doesn't want me to call him a criminal then he shouldn't have broken into my house. I am a middle class small town white guy. If someone called me a redneck, I would say yeah I am a little. I wouldn't get mad. I don't understand what has become of society. Does everyone suffer from low self esteem or something? There are far more important issues to be concerned with in the world.

 

[jrry32]

freak with getting your feelings hurt. People need to man up! I am trying to teach my son how to be a man and ignore stupid remarks that are only meant to hurt his feelings. I teach him that letting someone affect him with words is giving them control over his emotions. While society tells him that when people say bad things your feelings should be hurt and he should strike back by getting the kid kicked out of school. It's really screwed up. We need to teach people to be stronger not weaker.

It's not about manning up. It's about treating people with respect and decency. Yes, it's good to teach your son how to ignore stupid remarks and not let others get him down. However, I also hope you're teaching him not to get others down or attack others with his words. You seem like a good man, Elm, so I bet you are. That's what we need to instill in people. So those hurtful things aren't being said in the first place.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. That is right.

Words can definitely hurt you. I don't care who you are. Try telling that to people that have suffered legitimate emotional abuse from loved ones.

The world is turning into a big bunch of pussies. This is insane.

The world isn't turning into a bunch of "pussies." It's progressing. People are becoming more and more mindful about what they say and about what others say. Things that used to be tolerated are no longer socially acceptable. And bigotry is no longer being tolerated.

That's progress. It's progress that people face backlash for making insensitive comments. It's not because people are pussies. It's because people no longer want to accept the type of hatred that was prevalent 50 years ago. Society is trying to move past that. Racism is still out there but society is no longer allowing it to be out in the open and accepted to the same degree.

That all said, I'd hesitate to call Cowherd's comment racist.(because it targeted a country rather than a race) It was just insensitive.

It was a comment. I'd rather people quit being victims all the time.

That's what you're not getting. People aren't being victims. I'm not a victim. I'm not from the DR. But I still think it's wrong. You're completely missing the boat here. It's no longer the victims speaking out. It's the bystanders that aren't tolerating this type of bullshit anymore. The people that stood by idly in the past and didn't speak up while people were victimized. Those people no longer are accepting it. They're standing up and saying, "This is wrong."

And I love that. People can call it "political correctness" or the "pussification of America." I call it progress. The bystanders aren't tolerating the bigotry, the insensitivity, the hatred, they're pushing back and standing up for those being victimized.

Society is evolving to think litigation and vindication is all that matters. If The Dominican Republic doesn't want to be called stupid then they need to work to change that image.

Change what image? They aren't stupid. They just don't have resources. They're a poor country. What have the people of the DR done to deserve being called stupid by a jackass like Cowherd?

If the guy that broke into my house doesn't want me to call him a criminal then he shouldn't have broken into my house.

Except the DR didn't break into anyone's house. All they did was have a lot of their citizens be great at baseball. They did something right. They didn't do something wrong.

I am a middle class small town white guy. If someone called me a redneck, I would say yeah I am a little. I wouldn't get mad. I don't understand what has become of society. Does everyone suffer from low self esteem or something? There are far more important issues to be concerned with in the world.

Someone walks up to you and calls you a dumb redneck in front of your neighbors. Your neighbors say that you're not a dumb redneck, tell the guy who called you that that he is an asshole, and then tell him to leave the neighborhood. Would you say that your neighbors are acting like victims and being pussies?

That's what you're essentially doing here. Cowherd insulted the DR. People (not from the DR) thought it was wrong, defended the DR, and spoke out against Cowherd. And then people respond by claiming Americans are turning into pussies and acting like victims and then rant about political correctness.

I am glad people are speaking up.

There being more important issues is a weak argument. There are almost always going to be more important issues. Doesn't mean that you can't call a spade a spade.

 

[Mojo Ram]

There are Icehole's in this thread.

 

[Oldgeek]

It is only cause for dismissal if you are a white male. I can talk scat about my race because I'm black. It may be overly simplifying things but it seems the case most of the time. Can you imagine what the outcry would have been if instead of a movie called White Chicks had been called Black Chicks and starred two white guys in makeup? Why is that not wrong?

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

That's what you're not getting. People aren't being victims. I'm not a victim. I'm not from the DR. But I still think it's wrong. You're completely missing the boat here. It's no longer the victims speaking out. It's the bystanders that aren't tolerating this type of bullcrap anymore. The people that stood by idly in the past and didn't speak up while people were victimized. Those people no longer are accepting it. They're standing up and saying, "This is wrong."

And I love that. People can call it "political correctness" or the "pussification of America." I call it progress. The bystanders aren't tolerating the bigotry, the insensitivity, the hatred, they're pushing back and standing up for those being victimized.

That makes sense now that you say it that way. However it is being taken too far IMO. There is a new target every week anymore. Sure some of it is deserved but a lot of it is overboard. A guy shoots someone and has a rebel flag so now the rebel flag is wrong? What? Someone uses a gun and then all the politicans want to ban guns. It really seems that the end goal is to remove rights and control people. How about just not allowing whackos to have guns? The gun didnt shoot anyone of its own free will. The gun doesn't think. I feel controlled and I am not out in the media talking but even on a forum I am very conscious of what I say because some icehole may take it the wrong way, even if that is not how I meant it. I got into a bit on Ramstalk a few weeks ago for using the word thug. What I consider a thug and what someone from the city considers a thug could be two different things. A few said that it doesn't matter how I intend it, what matters is that it is now deemed derogatory towards African Americans. I am friends with African Americans and they use the word thug. Thug doesn't mean black person or the N word. A thug is a person who is comfortable being perceived as a dangerous criminal element and probably does engage in criminal activity. The guy that broke into my house is a thug...........and he is white. That kind of crap is too much. This whole thing about the bystanders trying to stand up for everyone seems kind of like the Faith Militant on GoT. People are overdoing it. I am allowed to say thug if I want. I am allowed to say anything I want.

BTW you are right. Our son does not say anything bad that could get him in trouble or can be conceived as mean toward other students. He is a very good kid and hopefully when he is an adult he is more used to this new culture and doesn't slip up and say something that lands him in jail or ruins his career.

Cowherd was not being malicious. That is the bottom line.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

It is only cause for dismissal if you are a white male. I can talk scat about my race because I'm black. It may be overly simplifying things but it seems the case most of the time. Can you imagine what the outcry would have been if instead of a movie called White Chicks had been called Black Chicks and starred two white guys in makeup? Why is that not wrong?

True. Thing is a black man can talk crap on the white race and it is okay. Steven A. Smith is racist and is on ESPN and nobody does anything. ESPN would be too afraid to fire him because then people would say they fired him because he was black. A police officer can shoot a black guy that was fighting for his gun and the country goes nuts. A black guy can shoot a black 5 year old boy and nobody cares. The only thing they care about is the race issue. Nobody knows the name of the guy who shot the boy. It is barely in the news. Its sad.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Wish I could continue this but I am leaving for Spina Bifida camp. My whole family volunteers for a week. The strange thing is that there are kids from all over the country and a few nationally that attend this camp. We all get along great and nobody is hawking around making sure everyone is politically correct. It's a nice place.

 

[fearsomefour]

And bigotry is no longer being tolerated.

Have to disagree here.
Only certain bigotry is being tolerated or even actively encouraged.
As for feelings being bruised there is a thousand miles of difference between someone suffering legitimate emotional abuse from a family member and someone making a joke. If a person is so fragile or damaged as to not be able to tell the difference or deal with the difference they are going to have a tough time dealing with life. In my part time thing I do working with amateur baseball players I have to be honest with parents from time to time. I have had to tell people, their son is not as good as they think he is, or, I don't want to work with their son, or, I don't train girls. I say this as straight forward but as tactfully as I can. I have no intent to hurt anyones feelings, but, I am going to say what I think. I am not going to lie. Have some gotten their feelings hurt? Yes.
How do I feel about it? It doesn't make me happy and I try to avoid it, but, that is apart of life.
As for society progressing lets look at another example.
The hysterical thing around peanut allergies and kids in school. It used to be if someone was so allergic or so at risk to have a reaction to something they would remove themselves from the situation. Now, entire schools are banning peanuts or peanut products because one kid is that allergic. That is not progress. That is cowardly administrators cowtowing to lawyers.
Are some kids allergic to peanuts? Yes. Should an entire school of hundreds of kids have to change what they do to appease one kid? Hell no.

 

[Prime Time]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States

Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and by many state constitutions and state and federal laws. Freedom of speech is not absolute; the Supreme Court of the United States has recognized several categories of speech that are excluded from the freedom, and it has recognized that governments may enact reasonable time, place, or manner restrictions on speech.

Criticism of the government and advocacy of unpopular ideas that people may find distasteful or against public policy are almost always permitted. There are exceptions to these general protections, including the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, speech that incites imminent lawless action, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising.

Within these limited areas, other limitations on free speech balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as rights for authors over their works (copyright), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on fighting words), or the use of untruths to harm others (slander). Distinctions are often made between speech and other acts which may have symbolic significance.
--------------------------------------
In a business, in the NFL, and on internet forums however, freedom of speech is determined by the owners. ESPN has every right to fire, suspend, or fine an employee who's cashing their paychecks. That employee also has the right to sue ESPN if he or she feels they were treated unfairly or there was bias against them.

What Cowherd said was ill-timed and inappropriate, imo. He could have chosen a better way of expressing his opinion. However, I don't know what was in the man's heart at the time he spoke those words and neither do any of you. What someone's motivation is, is only known to them. Any mind-readers here?

But this is America - 2015 - where you'd better parse your words carefully or you might get suspended, fired, sued, or have your reputation ruined. Thought-crime is finally here. George Orwell was a prophet but his prediction of 1984 was premature.

 

[-X-]

What Cowherd said was ill-timed and inappropriate, imo. He could have chosen a better way of expressing his opinion. However, I don't know what was in the man's heart at the time he spoke those words and neither do any of you. What someone's motivation is, is only known to them. Any mind-readers here?

Agreed.

But apparently context doesn't matter because words can get you the axe regardless of your intentions. And thanks for putting up the limitations of freedom of speech to illustrate that. There are some great points being made in this thread from the side I've landed on in this debate; including, but not limited to, double standards and over-sensitivity. If The New Moral Order gets its way, you won't be permitted to say anything even remotely off-color without having to stand trial in the court of public opinion - or worse - without incurring the very real possibility of jeopardizing your livelihood. That's where we're headed?

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd like to be able to fuck up once in a while without recourse, if that's okay.

 

[bluecollarram]

It's like being in the mafia or eating at the "Y"
One slip of the tongue and you're in deep shit:shades:

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd like to be able to freak up once in a while without recourse, if that's okay.[/QUOTE]

 

[Akrasian]

Cowherd is a professional communicator, very well paid to make his employer money by bringing in the ratings/ad revenue. Part of the cost of having such a job is that you do need to be careful not to cause such distress that it might reduce ad revenue, or upset a major advertiser or client. It's the downside of his chosen career - but it's far from unique in that industry.

I work for an outsourcing company that has a client that is a MAJOR internet company, making billions on internet advertising. My job is to create ad campaigns for companies that ad agencies bring to the client - I've done it for years. However, there are rules - if I violate certain standards and in doing so potentially lose the client an ad agency, I can be fired - I've seen it a couple times in the past 5 years. It's the nature of things - some mess ups can be tolerated, but if they upset the client enough, any job is at risk. Cowherd upset a major client of ESPN, and risked advertising revenue with bad publicity for the company. So he's gone, although another company is giving him a chance. If he keeps doing it enough, though, he'll end up doing sports radio in the 87th largest market or something.

People are thinking of this as a moral issue - it's a business issue first and foremost, with moral claims mostly being covering for business (since ESPN and every media company won't admit that it's about the advertising revenue LONG TERM.) Cowherd was let go because he was a short timer anyway, so the upside of keeping him was tiny, and because the bad publicity and angering of MLB had the potential of costing ESPN money. I wouldn't worry too much about him though - he makes several million a year, and presumably will make more at Fox.

 

[-X-]

Cowherd is a professional communicator, very well paid to make his employer money by bringing in the ratings/ad revenue. Part of the cost of having such a job is that you do need to be careful not to cause such distress that it might reduce ad revenue, or upset a major advertiser or client. It's the downside of his chosen career - but it's far from unique in that industry.

I work for an outsourcing company that has a client that is a MAJOR internet company, making billions on internet advertising. My job is to create ad campaigns for companies that ad agencies bring to the client - I've done it for years. However, there are rules - if I violate certain standards and in doing so potentially lose the client an ad agency, I can be fired - I've seen it a couple times in the past 5 years. It's the nature of things - some mess ups can be tolerated, but if they upset the client enough, any job is at risk. Cowherd upset a major client of ESPN, and risked advertising revenue with bad publicity for the company. So he's gone, although another company is giving him a chance. If he keeps doing it enough, though, he'll end up doing sports radio in the 87th largest market or something.

People are thinking of this as a moral issue - it's a business issue first and foremost, with moral claims mostly being covering for business (since ESPN and every media company won't admit that it's about the advertising revenue LONG TERM.) Cowherd was let go because he was a short timer anyway, so the upside of keeping him was tiny, and because the bad publicity and angering of MLB had the potential of costing ESPN money. I wouldn't worry too much about him though - he makes several million a year, and presumably will make more at Fox.

Well said.

The problem in this case, I guess, is the symbiotic relationship between business and morals. And it's a very slippery slope when it comes to regulating morals in the interest of good business; particularly when the business is the entertainment industry. Further when the entertainment industry employee's job is to BE controversial in order to lure viewers/listeners for the purpose of generating revenue (i.e. advertisers).

I think you're right though. Cowherd was a short-timer, so the decision was easy and makes ESPN look like they have strong moral convictions and a zero tolerance policy for verbal slip-ups. We all know they don't though. If Cowherd was at the top of his game, and the revenue stream as a result of his job was high, then a simple (albeit well-constructed) apology would have sufficed. I have no doubts about that. That's why ESPN should be very careful about how they manage these situations and where they draw the line. If they take this stance all the time, under any circumstance, then they're only gonna end up hurting themselves. They also run the risk of being accused of having double-standards if they let a bigger draw get away with the same thing in the future.

 

[Mojo Ram]

Can you imagine what the outcry would have been if instead of a movie called White Chicks had been called Black Chicks and starred two white guys in makeup? Why is that not wrong?

I used that exact same analogy in another thread somewhere to make the same point about how whacko things have become in terms of what's "socially acceptable" in the expression of art, film, tv, music, media etc whenever race is involved...

White people have openly become fair game for all(non-white) to mock and ridicule, and conversely, the common white folk have to censor themselves CONSTANTLY. The racial double-standard needle in this country is screaming.

 

[Dodgersrf]

I used that exact same analogy in another thread somewhere to make the same point about how whacko things have become in terms of what's "socially acceptable" in the expression of art, film, tv, music, media etc whenever race is involved...

White people have openly become fair game for all(non-white) to mock and ridicule, and conversely, the common white folk have to censor themselves CONSTANTLY. The racial double-standard needle in this country is screaming.

I agree, and the people crying foul, aren't even playing on a level field.