LaMarcus Joyner

[PFaulk]

Lets put it into perspective. Joyner is not a 6th round pick. He is a 2nd round pick and in general 2nd rounders are instant contributors. They may not be superstars all the time but the idea is that they can come in and play at a high level or start. Joyner is not battling for the starting corner job, or for the starting safety job for that matter. He is battling for the slot corner position, by default. If Gaines doesn't injure his foot Joyner isn't even in the conversation as the slot. He becomes the 4th or 5th corner. I actually think Roberson is ahead of him on the outside. So he is the backup slot corner. The intention was that he would be the main slot corner when drafted.

He has a bit of proving to do and so far he is not making doubters look bad.

I dunno. I'm an FSU fan, so I'm biased, and I was thrilled when we drafted him.

But I still think he has a lot to give us. Nickel is becoming more and more of an important position in today's NFL. Teams are passing more, 3 WR looks are becoming more of a base package these days, seems like. So is a nickel on defense.

I dunno if he has "become the 4th or 5th corner." It seems to me like with the injury to Gaines, he's positioned to be the team's starting nickelback. Maybe he loses the gig, guess we'll see.

I like him. I still think he's got a great shot to contribute very positively this to team. I'm not sweating a rookie year. But I guess we'll see.

 

[PFaulk]

Well, all rookies don't get better. Some just prove that the NFL is too much for their abilities. Many don't cut it. Even second rounders.

That doesn't seem to be the case here, at least not yet.

What seems to be the case here is that he has an opportunity to play in the nickel package. How well he does, how long he can keep it going? Guess we'll see.

I'm optimistic.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I tend to think they overdrafted Joyner a bit--not by much, but I think Snisher were a bit jealous of the Honey Badger pick by the Cards, & were hoping Joyner would fit that role for us. But I do think he's got loads of talent, & hits like a truck--he could still be a great contributor for us, as long as GW makes sure he's not overmatched in height / speed from game to game.

Interesting take. Right now Joyner looks like a backup Safety that they are trying to squeeze into a different role because 1. they cast him in that role from the start with their proclamations 2. he does have some ability

I think he was overdrafted by about a full 3 rounds. I think Fisher loved his personality and his grittiness. Maybe he saw some Courtland Finnegan in him. Joyner is supposedly a great clubhouse presence but his field skills lack. He is not good against big strong guys and he can be outquicked by smaller guys. He is strong against the run but really lacking against the pass.

That pick will always be a head scratcher for me.

 

[TheDYVKX]

Not at all concerned about Joyner's size. Others have succeeded with those limitations, Antoine Winfield comes to mind. Tyrann Mathieu recently. Joyner doesn't have really any less ability than they do.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I dunno. I'm an FSU fan, so I'm biased, and I was thrilled when we drafted him.

But I still think he has a lot to give us. Nickel is becoming more and more of an important position in today's NFL. Teams are passing more, 3 WR looks are becoming more of a base package these days, seems like. So is a nickel on defense.

I dunno if he has "become the 4th or 5th corner." It seems to me like with the injury to Gaines, he's positioned to be the team's starting nickelback. Maybe he loses the gig, guess we'll see.

I like him. I still think he's got a great shot to contribute very positively this to team. I'm not sweating a rookie year. But I guess we'll see.

No offense but that explains a lot. And yes many of us like to see our schools players do well, especially with our own NFL team. It is not fun to see them in a lesser role in the Pros.

 

[rams56]

Lets put it into perspective. Joyner is not a 6th round pick. He is a 2nd round pick and in general 2nd rounders are instant contributors. They may not be superstars all the time but the idea is that they can come in and play at a high level or start. Joyner is not battling for the starting corner job, or for the starting safety job for that matter. He is battling for the slot corner position, by default. If Gaines doesn't injure his foot Joyner isn't even in the conversation as the slot. He becomes the 4th or 5th corner. I actually think Roberson is ahead of him on the outside. So he is the backup slot corner. The intention was that he would be the main slot corner when drafted.

He has a bit of proving to do and so far he is not making doubters look bad.

I get your points but I don't agree with your assertion that he wouldn't be in the conversation for the nickel spot. I think especially in early down sub packages he is on the field before Gaines or Johnson in the slot. Yes Gaines may be a better cover corner...but Joyner is much more physical against the run and a better blitzer. His ability to drop a running back in his tracks after sorting threw traffic cannot be understated. Much more physical than either of other two and that physicality itself may cause turnovers.

Go Rams.........

 

[PFaulk]

No offense but that explains a lot. And yes many of us like to see our schools players do well, especially with our own NFL team. It is not fun to see them in a lesser role in the Pros.

None taken, just being frank.

I'm not particularly surprised that Joyner hasn't been given an outside position in a base 4-3 defensive look, I never anticipated that for him.

Although I'm an FSU fan, I try and keep things realistic (no, I am not always successful, haha). After a little while, I knew where the worm was turning with Alex Barron. I never projected a starting role for Chris Weinke (and I'm a little unsure of why he's a coach, but that's a story for another day).

But I do think Joyner has something.

You're of course free to dismiss my opinion as that of a college fan zealot if that's your preference. No skin off my nose, so to speak.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Not at all concerned about Joyner's size. Others have succeeded with those limitations, Antoine Winfield comes to mind. Tyrann Mathieu recently. Joyner doesn't have really any less ability than they do.

Strengths
Very good run instincts -- is quick to step downhill. Keenly makes subtle, pre-snap adjustments (nice anticipation and play recognition). Outstanding overall production in all facets. Good competitive playing speed -- runs as fast as he needs to. Very good football-playing demeanor -- confident and opportunistic. Played big and produced timely, game-changing plays vs. Clemson (sack, interception and forced fumbles). Times up the blitz very well and plays bigger than his size. Has contributed as a gunner and displayed good short-area burst in the return game. Exceptional work ethic and leadership traits. Respected, vocal team leader with an infectious attitude that can unite a locker room. Has been extremely durable and never missed a game despite aggressive style of play and diminutive stature.
Weaknesses
Average athlete. Tight-hipped and rounds off breaks -- not sudden. Lacks foot speed to carry receivers vertically from the slot and is seldom placed in situations where he can be distressed in downfield coverage. Lacks size and stature for press coverage. Can be out-quicked by shifty slot receivers. Marginal recovery speed and catch-up burst when he gets caught peeking. Struggles to match up with size and speed in man coverage. Makes mental mistakes too much in banjo coverage and struggles to sort out bunch sets. Does not have a body ideally built to withstand a 16-game season.
Draft Projection
Rounds 4-5
Bottom Line
A good college football player lacking ideal physical traits for the NFL game. Functioned well as a short-hole, nickel zone corner for a national championship team and was well-schemed to play the ball in front of him and turned loose to attack. Classic 'tweener who could compete in situational packages, but is vulnerable to be mismatched against. Will need to make his mark on special teams and in the return game to carve a role. Has a make-it attitude and winning mentality that could allow him to overcome his physical limitations. Compares favorably to Panthers 2009 seventh-rounder Captain Munnerlyn.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/lamarcus-joyner?id=2543492

I don't think he is nearly as skilled as Mattheiu or Winfield. Size is not the only thing to compare. This is one scouting report that seems to reflect what we see in camp.

I hope he can prove me wrong and become the best slot corner in the game. I just don't think he can.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

You're of course free to dismiss my opinion as that of a college fan zealot if that's your preference. No skin off my nose, so to speak.

No, that is not what I intended. If guys look like they are improving then you see it. I don't see it in Joyner so far. Now couple that with his limitations from college and it doesn't give me a lot of hope.

If I was a FU fan I might have a bit more hope, especially after seeing him as a team leader and a very successful college player.

 

[PFaulk]

If I was a FU fan I might have a bit more hope

Somehow I doubt it!

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I get your points but I don't agree with your assertion that he wouldn't be in the conversation for the nickel spot. I think especially in early down sub packages he is on the field before Gaines or Johnson in the slot. Yes Gaines may be a better cover corner...but Joyner is much more physical against the run and a better blitzer. His ability to drop a running back in his tracks after sorting threw traffic cannot be understated. Much more physical than either of other two and that physicality itself may cause turnovers.

Go Rams.........

Oh he was in the conversation. Fisher said from the start that he was the Nickle. Joyner has his shortcomings in coverage. He is great against the run and as a blitzer. He hits like a truck. He sounds like a situational player more than a full time starter.

 

[Memento]

Honestly? I loved the pick. I loved that we traded up for him and only gave up a fifth round pick. And you know what? I still love the pick.

I'm going to let the regular season play out because I saw Joyner flash last year. Plenty of times. And not just as a hitter. I have the feeling that he'll be just fine come regular season.

 

[TheDYVKX]

Strengths
Very good run instincts -- is quick to step downhill. Keenly makes subtle, pre-snap adjustments (nice anticipation and play recognition). Outstanding overall production in all facets. Good competitive playing speed -- runs as fast as he needs to. Very good football-playing demeanor -- confident and opportunistic. Played big and produced timely, game-changing plays vs. Clemson (sack, interception and forced fumbles). Times up the blitz very well and plays bigger than his size. Has contributed as a gunner and displayed good short-area burst in the return game. Exceptional work ethic and leadership traits. Respected, vocal team leader with an infectious attitude that can unite a locker room. Has been extremely durable and never missed a game despite aggressive style of play and diminutive stature.
Weaknesses
Average athlete. Tight-hipped and rounds off breaks -- not sudden. Lacks foot speed to carry receivers vertically from the slot and is seldom placed in situations where he can be distressed in downfield coverage. Lacks size and stature for press coverage. Can be out-quicked by shifty slot receivers. Marginal recovery speed and catch-up burst when he gets caught peeking. Struggles to match up with size and speed in man coverage. Makes mental mistakes too much in banjo coverage and struggles to sort out bunch sets. Does not have a body ideally built to withstand a 16-game season.
Draft Projection
Rounds 4-5
Bottom Line
A good college football player lacking ideal physical traits for the NFL game. Functioned well as a short-hole, nickel zone corner for a national championship team and was well-schemed to play the ball in front of him and turned loose to attack. Classic 'tweener who could compete in situational packages, but is vulnerable to be mismatched against. Will need to make his mark on special teams and in the return game to carve a role. Has a make-it attitude and winning mentality that could allow him to overcome his physical limitations. Compares favorably to Panthers 2009 seventh-rounder Captain Munnerlyn.

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/lamarcus-joyner?id=2543492

I don't think he is nearly as skilled as Mattheiu or Winfield. Size is not the only thing to compare. This is one scouting report that seems to reflect what we see in camp.

I hope he can prove me wrong and become the best slot corner in the game. I just don't think he can.

I can go find 5 different scouting reports that say the exact same things about Tyrann Mathieu. I'm at work so I don't have the time, but I could, because those were the same knocks on Mathieu. I don't know if I can find Winfield scouting reports, but I'm sure he had a lot of the same negatives as well coming out.

Whether he works out or not is not on him physically in my opinion, it's all mental. If he can get the mental game down, he will be great.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Honestly? I loved the pick. I loved that we traded up for him and only gave up a fifth round pick. And you know what? I still love the pick.

I'm going to let the regular season play out because I saw Joyner flash last year. Plenty of times. And not just as a hitter. I have the feeling that he'll be just fine come regular season.

Hope you are right and I am wrong.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Not at all concerned about Joyner's size. Others have succeeded with those limitations, Antoine Winfield comes to mind. Tyrann Mathieu recently. Joyner doesn't have really any less ability than they do.

Both players were taller and faster coming out of college. Winfield, was even a 4.3/40 guy and more teams are going with taller WRs nowadays. And Mathieu was more of a playmaker and had/has better ball skills.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I can go find 5 different scouting reports that say the exact same things about Tyrann Mathieu. I'm at work so I don't have the time, but I could, because those were the same knocks on Mathieu. I don't know if I can find Winfield scouting reports, but I'm sure he had a lot of the same negatives as well coming out.

Whether he works out or not is not on him physically in my opinion, it's all mental. If he can get the mental game down, he will be great.

Joyner graded at a 5.24

Mathieu - Grade 73.0
Analysis
Strengths
Fiesty turnover machine who lines up outside, in the slot and at safety when needed. Instinctual player with very good read-and-react ability, always seems to work his way into position to make a play on the ball. Does whatever it takes to make a stop, fights through blocks using hands and quickness, goes low or high and doesn’t let up after initial contact. Brings enough force despite his size to get ballcarriers off balance with a glancing blow. Constantly rips at the ball while making a tackle or when others have secured the stop. Fights for jump balls with taller receivers downfield. Regularly used as a blitzer due to his feel, quickness and tenacity. Very good vision and short-area quickness as a punt returner, can make the first man miss and cut back effectively against the grain. Will go outside if the space is there but also slalom through traffic up the field when necessary. Also has balance and strength to get through arm tackles. Will also be a strong tackler on coverage units if required.
Weaknesses
Mathieu’s issues with substance abuse will be the primary focus of NFL teams whenever he decides to pursue a career in professional football. Possesses below-average size for the position. Usually brings down ballcarriers of any size, NFL veterans might prove a bigger challenge. Quicker than fast, though his effort often masks average straight-line speed for his size. Must prove his ability to stay with larger receivers and tight end in man coverage, as they use their length advantage to separate and frame to shield him from the ball. Will take chances as a punt returner, grabbing the ball on a bounce or inside the 5-yard line.
NFL Comparison
Cortland Finnegan
Bottom Line
The 2011 Bednarik Award winner as the nation’s top defender was dismissed from LSU for multiple violations of team rules. Subsequently, he decided to enter a drug rehab center and ultimately ended up declaring for the draft instead of transferring. When on the field, the undersized but ultracompetitive turnover machine (six forced fumbles, two interceptions in 2011) brings the physicality of a bigger player in his tackles, no matter where he plays. Mathieu is also a game-changer as a punt returner, ranking fourth in the country last year with 16.2 yards per attempt and scoring two touchdowns.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/tyrann-mathieu?id=2540180

Winfield did prove difficult to find. Mathieu is a more complete player than Joyner

 

[rams56]

A few more random thoughts on this before I head into work.

Where is EG Gaines scouting report? Do you agree with they're assessment on him?

I think we know at this point anyway that Winfield and Mathieu are better cover men than joiner with better speed and taller.... yet none of them ...yes not even Winfield could or can play the run in the slot as well as him and as he learns the position the heart,instinct part , as well as play recondition may help cover the lack of elite foot speed. Maybe? What ya think? Well off to work I have enjoyed this debate...keep up good work everyone. ....

Go Rams..............

 

[Merlin]

I am not ready to write Joyner off just yet for a couple reasons...

First, the Rams are savvy with their DBs and had the guy targeted due to what he does well. Second, the dude loves football. This isn't a Jason Smith who got paid and isn't willing to do the work. He is ultra competitive and has the right mindset you want in a corner.

Williams doesn't exactly make it easy on these guys. His scheme is tough, and the guys who don't know it cold will not look good particularly in the secondary. I do understand the concern with his size and lack of athleticism for the position, but even though he doesn't have great speed and agility the guy brings other stuff to the table that should play well in an aggressive scheme.

So I'm still in wait and see mode with him, and have my fingers crossed. Hopefully we'll start seeing the Joyner some of us recall, who can flash all over the place when he knows wtf he's doing.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

A few more random thoughts on this before I head into work.

Where is EG Gaines scouting report? Do you agree with they're assessment on him?

I think we know at this point anyway that Winfield and Mathieu are better cover men than joiner with better speed and taller.... yet none of them ...yes not even Winfield could or can play the run in the slot as well as him and as he learns the position the heart,instinct part , as well as play recondition may help cover the lack of elite foot speed. Maybe? What ya think? Well off to work I have enjoyed this debate...keep up good work everyone. ....

Go Rams..............

I agree that Joyner is very good against the run and has high character. I don't agree that a situational player is worth a second round pick. However Fisher/Williams really value them. Mark Barron has limitations and is a situational player, Akeem Ayers is more of a pass rushing LBer, and Maurice Alexander seems to be much like Barron. No coincidence that Joyner is also a good pass rusher and all three are good against the run.

Maybe Fisher felt that Joyner's skills will put the D over the top. I think that is short sighted considering that NFL coaches will know how to exploit weaknesses on any team.

 

[TheDYVKX]

Joyner graded at a 5.24

Mathieu - Grade 73.0
Analysis
Strengths
Fiesty turnover machine who lines up outside, in the slot and at safety when needed. Instinctual player with very good read-and-react ability, always seems to work his way into position to make a play on the ball. Does whatever it takes to make a stop, fights through blocks using hands and quickness, goes low or high and doesn’t let up after initial contact. Brings enough force despite his size to get ballcarriers off balance with a glancing blow. Constantly rips at the ball while making a tackle or when others have secured the stop. Fights for jump balls with taller receivers downfield. Regularly used as a blitzer due to his feel, quickness and tenacity. Very good vision and short-area quickness as a punt returner, can make the first man miss and cut back effectively against the grain. Will go outside if the space is there but also slalom through traffic up the field when necessary. Also has balance and strength to get through arm tackles. Will also be a strong tackler on coverage units if required.
Weaknesses
Mathieu’s issues with substance abuse will be the primary focus of NFL teams whenever he decides to pursue a career in professional football. Possesses below-average size for the position. Usually brings down ballcarriers of any size, NFL veterans might prove a bigger challenge. Quicker than fast, though his effort often masks average straight-line speed for his size. Must prove his ability to stay with larger receivers and tight end in man coverage, as they use their length advantage to separate and frame to shield him from the ball. Will take chances as a punt returner, grabbing the ball on a bounce or inside the 5-yard line.
NFL Comparison
Cortland Finnegan
Bottom Line
The 2011 Bednarik Award winner as the nation’s top defender was dismissed from LSU for multiple violations of team rules. Subsequently, he decided to enter a drug rehab center and ultimately ended up declaring for the draft instead of transferring. When on the field, the undersized but ultracompetitive turnover machine (six forced fumbles, two interceptions in 2011) brings the physicality of a bigger player in his tackles, no matter where he plays. Mathieu is also a game-changer as a punt returner, ranking fourth in the country last year with 16.2 yards per attempt and scoring two touchdowns.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/tyrann-mathieu?id=2540180

Winfield did prove difficult to find. Mathieu is a more complete player than Joyner

Both players were taller and faster coming out of college. Winfield, was even a 4.3/40 guy and more teams are going with taller WRs nowadays. And Mathieu was more of a playmaker and had/has better ball skills.

If you guys say so. I just think you guys are by far jumping the gun on Joyner. He hasn't even played 16 games in his career yet. Let him play. I still think he compares favorably to both those players and will be a similar player to at least Mathieu.