Dick Vermeil Learned this^ so can Fisher! Hopefully with the same results!!!!
Jeff Fisher
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Personally, Bri, I think threads like this are unproductive and a little insulting. What you've essentially done is tell everyone that you're right, they're wrong, and people who don't believe you're right are just blind to the facts due to excessive homerism or fanaticism. I'm gonna go ahead and take a pass on the question and just say that (again), massive amounts of injuries has (again) destroyed what the youngest team in the league is capable of doing. When you go from youngest team to injury-depleted-youngest team and have to play even younger and/or more inexperienced backups, then you're essentially fucked. The one constant in Fisher's tenure here so far is that all of his QBs have been ineffective, injured, or had some kind of a fatal flaw that severely limited what the offense as a whole could do in the passing game.
I've studied the Titans' teams he's coached and I see similarities. He had a 13 year stretch once where he had only 3 non-winning records while going to the playoffs (and SB) 6 times. During that time though, two years in a row (2004, 2005), his record took a sharp decline and resulted in two of the three losing records. Because during those two years (tell me if this sounds familiar), there was a pretty significant cap problem with the Titans which led to the release of several players, in addition to having an unprecedented amount of injuries across the board - not the least of which caused him to use 3 different QBs during the season and 2 the following season. Once that got sorted out he got them back to .500 and then the playoffs two years in a row. Those aren't the actions of a shitty coach.
Admittedly his brand of football is more reliant upon defense and special teams, and the margin for error is less than that of a team that can air it out with regularity, but that in and of itself doesn't make him a bad coach or wrong for the job. All it means is that he can't afford injuries to key players on a scale like we've been witnessing. And he ESPECIALLY can't afford to have it at QB. It's a fact that better QB play, or even a better QB, could have yielded him almost a dozen more wins over the course of his time here. I've seen QB play cost this team games for almost 4 years now and can safely assume (without being blind) that a Steve McNair type QB, or even an in-his-prime Kerry Collins could have gotten him a few winning seasons here.
Wanna blame him for not getting a QB? Okay, do that. But I'm not prepared to blame him for betting on Bradford when he took the job here. All I can really blame him for is his hit-and-miss drafting and lack of foresight. That's still not enough to say he's wrong for the job. It just means he's close to becoming shit out of luck.
I've studied the Titans' teams he's coached and I see similarities. He had a 13 year stretch once where he had only 3 non-winning records while going to the playoffs (and SB) 6 times. During that time though, two years in a row (2004, 2005), his record took a sharp decline and resulted in two of the three losing records. Because during those two years (tell me if this sounds familiar), there was a pretty significant cap problem with the Titans which led to the release of several players, in addition to having an unprecedented amount of injuries across the board - not the least of which caused him to use 3 different QBs during the season and 2 the following season. Once that got sorted out he got them back to .500 and then the playoffs two years in a row. Those aren't the actions of a shitty coach.
Admittedly his brand of football is more reliant upon defense and special teams, and the margin for error is less than that of a team that can air it out with regularity, but that in and of itself doesn't make him a bad coach or wrong for the job. All it means is that he can't afford injuries to key players on a scale like we've been witnessing. And he ESPECIALLY can't afford to have it at QB. It's a fact that better QB play, or even a better QB, could have yielded him almost a dozen more wins over the course of his time here. I've seen QB play cost this team games for almost 4 years now and can safely assume (without being blind) that a Steve McNair type QB, or even an in-his-prime Kerry Collins could have gotten him a few winning seasons here.
Wanna blame him for not getting a QB? Okay, do that. But I'm not prepared to blame him for betting on Bradford when he took the job here. All I can really blame him for is his hit-and-miss drafting and lack of foresight. That's still not enough to say he's wrong for the job. It just means he's close to becoming shit out of luck.
My take on Fisher;
Fishers problem is he's trying to set the approach.
Fisher needs to find that offensive guy who can get results. Fuck the approach.
- Good leader of men
- Fits the model Stan wants, Patriots way
- Seems a better talent evaluator with defensive personnel
- Needs an offensive mind on staff. Too much data to suggest it's all injuries, personnel, etc.
Fishers problem is he's trying to set the approach.
Fisher needs to find that offensive guy who can get results. Fuck the approach.
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IMO, Fisher's main problem is the main problem of several NFL coaches around the league with losing records.
He doesn't and hasn't had a quality QB on offense.
If he had one, then he and this team would look a helluva lot better. IMO, people have been blinded and haven't seen that this team has actually shown some creativity on offense. They just haven't had anything at the most important position on the field to make a go of it.
I'm on board BUT one thing you didn't mention is can he probably mange his coaching staff? And Hc is a leading g of men, not just the players but the whole organization under him coaching staff included. He has shown alot of error in that department. Remember when Walton was our dc and it took like 10 games for him to pull the plug and say hey, this 10yds off coverage every play ain't working. Even with Shotty and his play calling and not getting tavon into the offense, and now with cignetti. He just needs to leave the offense alone but get competent ppl to run it their way, not his.
Sorry but no. He may be a good guy. Maybe even a great guy. Like him as a person.
But the game is passing him by and he's too entrenched in his own ways and creative OCs just don't seem to wanna work with him when Cigs is the best you can do.
His results have gotten worse each year. Stability? Means squat when stable is a great D but a 6 win team with an offense from the 60s.
Time for him to just go.
But the game is passing him by and he's too entrenched in his own ways and creative OCs just don't seem to wanna work with him when Cigs is the best you can do.
His results have gotten worse each year. Stability? Means squat when stable is a great D but a 6 win team with an offense from the 60s.
Time for him to just go.
That's what I was thinking @Athos. Some keep saying "we need to keep Fisher for stability."
What?!?! Staying "stable" at 4-12 or 7-9 seasons is not what the fans want. Thank you but we don't need that kind of "stability" from Jeff Fisher.
Elmgrovegnome
Legend
Does he have to prove he still can do it? Because he proved he could in the past despite most posters calling him a .500 coach.
From 99 to 2010 his record was
13-3
13-3
7-9
11-5
12-4
5-11
4-4
8-8
10-6
13-3
8-8
6-10
We haven't had a coach with tht kind of success since the 70s. He had a nice 5 year run with McNair. Then a lull and got back on track. He had several coaches move on and he had QB issues late in his time there. If his record indicates anything, he should be due for a big upswing.
Elmgrovegnome
Legend
Yeah you are right. And I like Fisher, but I struggle with him passing on so many QBs in the draft. If a team is ever in position to draft a good QB, they should do it if possible, even if they have a QB, as long as they believe he is an NFL starting caliber QB. They can sit him and let him learn and have a great backup who can challenge the starter. If a team needs a QB they absolutely should never pass on one if they have a chance to draft a guy that they feel is an NFL starting QB, even if he has to sit a year.
So, did he and Snead totally screw the evaluations on Carr, Bortles, Bridgewater, or couldn't they bring themselves to prioritize the QB position over all else, which most coaches and GMs have learned to do years ago?
He tried to fix that mistake this past offseason, so I think he gets it now. So he should get a shot at fixing it again. Landing a good OC and capable QB have to be his priorities, even if he thinks Mannion is the future. Fitzpatrick or Glennon coupled with Martz would score enough points, coupled with this defense to win. One easy fix in one offseason. One good OC he trusts and a capable veteran QB that just has to be competent, like Foles was early in the season.
I have a number of issues with Fisher and what you've stated are just two of many. Can't fault him for sticking with Bradford. Would have done the same thing in his shoes. Can't fault him for 2013. Nothing you can do when you lose your QB for the year. However, I do fault him for 2014 and this year. We had an opportunity to draft a QB to hedge our bets in 2014 and we didn't. We risked it all on Bradford and we lost. And then we risked it all on Foles and we lost. In my opinion, Fisher is responsible for both of those failures. Especially Foles.
This is a business. A tough business. And when you make massive mistakes like Foles this deep into your tenure, it's impossible for me to have any sort of belief that he can fix it and right the ship.
The drafting hasn't been bad (pending Greg Robinson and the 2015 Draft). We've definitely made mistakes in FA. And we need a lot more help at WR than I thought we would coming into the year. And this all worries me. Because Fisher has struggled on the offensive side of the ball thus far in terms of personnel.
But again, that's just a couple issues I have. I don't even care about the penalties. I think they're a meaningless. Some teams play disciplined, some teams don't. There's noc orrelation to winning or losing tied to how often you're penalized. The things that bother me the most are his coordinator decisions and game management decisions. Gregg Williams was a great hire. And had he not been suspended, maybe things would have been different. However, Walton and Blake Williams were both duds. Schottenheimer over Hue Jackson was a colossal error. And then he couldn't attract any decent OC this off-season. It's hard to swallow that.
On top of that, I hate the way he manages the game. I don't like his overly conservative style. I know our offense sucks but I still hate the way he consistently wastes possessions.
Frankly, I think time is up. Four years is a long time in the NFL and the team has gotten worse in terms of record each year. Fisher made a massive mistake in Foles when he could not afford it. And there were options available. I'm tired of losing. I'm tired of feeling like so many other teams have better head coaches. I'm tired of watching guys like Arians, Harbaugh, Carroll, etc. coach circles around Fisher.
Look at the team Arians took over. I know Fisher had it worse. Which is why I never busted his balls in 2012 or 2013. I knew how much work this team needed. But Arians took over a Cardinals team with a good defense and WRs but absolutely atrocious QB play, OL play, and HB play. Look what he built. The guy traded a 6th round pick for a QB that is currently in MVP discussions. Say what you will but that wasn't luck. It's not a coincidence that Fisher keeps making mistakes at the QB position (and has since McNair left) while a guy like Arians struck gold like that. I don't think Fisher has an eye for QBs.
It bothers me that I have sat through a decade plus of losing and I look at other teams/coaches able to turn teams into playoff contenders over night. Four years is enough for me. I don't want to sit through another QB mistake. I don't want to sit through another losing season. The Rams need to make a change. I recognize the risks. Fisher isn't a terrible HC. He's not Spags or Linehan. He's not in over his head. He's not incompetent. But he's also not good enough to turn this team around fully and get them over the hump. I'd rather take my chances on another coach. I'd love for us to hire Hue Jackson. I want to see the Rams try to clear that hump.
We all know how stubborn I am. We all know how opinionated I am. Yes, I want it my way. I think I know what's best for the team even when I don't. I am always trying to think like a GM and plan ahead. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. But I love this team. I invest everything I have emotionally into this team year after year. I find a way to make myself optimistic about this team every single season. I do my best to remain patient and loyal to our guys until they prove they can't get the job done (don't always succeed but I try). But it's getting harder and harder to deal with this. I can take the Rams trying to get better and failing. I can't take the Rams not giving a shit. Many of you will disagree but I feel that the Rams sticking with Jeff Fisher means they don't care about getting over that hump and trying to win. That's not something I can accept. I've sat through some truly dismal seasons but I won't sit through another year where we actually have talent and see it go to waste.
Because I love this team, I think they have to make a change. Continuity for continuity's sake is not the right plan. You can only stick by a guy that can't deliver wins for so long. What has Fisher done to earn a 5th year? This team overachieved in 2012. It achieved about what it was capable of in 2013.(I'd say overachieved if you consider Bradford's injury) But I strongly feel like this team has underachieved each of the past two years and Fisher's decisions are to blame for it.
That is just taking a look at a good period of his record. When people say he is a .500 coach they look at the entire record, not just his best period. He is 165-155 overall (.516).
It has now been 7 season since he was over .500 and 11 seasons since he won a playoff game, those are pretty long droughts.
It is nice to say "he is due", but that is the sort of talk they love in Vegas....
No question if we had quality performance at QB, we'd be better. No disagreement there.
Yet, with Fisher's offensive track record over 20 seasons, is he really that unlucky finding "the right one"?
How much better would this team be with a top 16 offense? Tampa has one with a rookie QB. The Jets are top 16 with Ryan Fitzpatrick. Houston is top 16 with Brian Hoyer and TJ Yates.
And... guess what? Philadelphia is top 16 with former Ram - Sam Bradford.
If Fisher had a top 16 offense, we'd have 2 more wins. One could argue, potentially 3-4 more wins.
I agree a quality QB will help, but there's something else going on here than just that.
(And... I'm in the keep Fisher camp)
Well, you're kind of agreeing with me but expanded on it a little. And it seems you were in a talkative mood when you did. lol. So I'm gonna reply this way and we'll look at it a little more in-depth. You say you fault him for 2014 by not drafting a QB to "hedge his bets." Why would he have done that? Bradford was injured in 2013 for half a season due to a fluke injury while being pulled down out of bounds. What head coach hedges his bets by drafting a replacement QB after their starter gets hurt one time? It just doesn't happen very often. And risking it all on Foles? When did we do that? We traded for him to get rid of the now two-time injured-knee Bradford, then re-signed Keenum and drafted a QB in the third round. That's not risking it all. Did YOU know Foles was going to struggle so hard when they traded for him?
Massive mistake? I mean, a mistake in hindsight is just a mistake in hindsight. They don't have to keep going with him next year.
That's a legit concern that I brought up about his hit-and-miss drafting. We only made some mistakes in FA because those guys ended up getting injured (I assume you're talking about the O-line acquisitions). I mean, shit happens. Better to have tried and lost than to not have tried at all.
That's a good point about his coordinators. A little too much nepotism involved in his choices on both sides of the ball. Schottenheimer over Hue Jackson though? Was Hue Jackson wanting to sign with the Rams? How do we know how that meeting went? Would it also be a colossal error if it turned out he wasn't even an option? And how was he the hottest prospect at the time anyway? He had limited experience as OC (did not do well his first two tries), was just fired as HC, and the Bengals ended up hiring him as secondary coach. His best success was as OC for the Raiders in 2010 and they had good running game with a poor passing game, so how was he different/better than Shotty at the time? Did something happen with him after being HC of the Raiders that the inner circle was aware of, which subsequently made him fruit of the poisonous tree? There's a lot we don't know about that situation to just point fingers and say bad decision.
Yes. Look at that team that Arians took over. A team recently removed from playing in a Super Bowl that flopped around with guys like Kevin Kolb and Derek Anderson. If it's so freaking easy to just sign a decent QB like Palmer, then why didn't we do it in the 2012 offseason too? Because there weren't any, and we allegedly had our Franchise QB already on the roster. We've been relegated to play guys like Clemens and Hill and Davis because we lost our starting QB. How did Arians do when he lost Palmer? He went 5-5. And he'd continue to rack up .500 records if he had to keep playing those guys too. It's been my contention (and the contention of others) that this team has consistently been one QB away from being a winning Franchise the past few years. You haven't convinced me otherwise.
I gotta get ready for work now though, so I'll pick up where I left off later. Basically, we're not that far apart on most things though.
Elmgrovegnome
Legend
I don't count the beginning of coaches tenures with bad teams. He walked into the worst roster maybe of all time on this team. However, it is pretty glaring what the lack of a decent QB has done, and he had that for a period in Tennessee too. It speaks volumes.
But back to my post. I will take an 8 game run like that. Tennesse fans wish he was back because they liked the ups and downs better than straight out losing. However, that will stop for them now that they have their QB.
Smart head coaches do it. New England has done it multiple times. Andy Reid is known for doing it. Bruce Arians has done it (on top of signing a quality backup). The Redskins did it with Cousins. It's really not out of the ordinary for a team to draft a QB to have behind their starter. The Packers used to do it pretty much every year under Holmgren and found a few gems due to it.
And let's be frank, there were people on this board that were in favor of drafting a QB if they were available in the right spot.
I disagree. We risked it all on Foles. Keenum was what he was. They drafted Mannion clearly with no intention to play him this year. It was Foles or bust. And no, I didn't think he'd be this bad. I've never been a Foles fan but I thought he could at least be mediocre for us.
When this has been a consistent problem since 2013, it's hard to give him a pass.(impossible for me to give him a pass)
I actually agree. The OL plan wasn't a bad plan. It just worked out terribly. I actually think it was an intelligent move.
We don't. But he interviewed for the job and then accepted a job as a position coach. I doubt he turned it down.
BTW, I loved Hue Jackson at the time. If you saw what he did in Oakland, the man was brilliant. Made Jason Campbell and Darren McFadden look like legitimate starters and had a team with very little talent competing. He got fired because he made a power grab after Al's death. It was a mistake. But that man did amazing things with that Raiders team.
Either ways, the fact that Fisher interviewed Hue and was willing to hire Williams back after Bountygate indicates to me that he didn't care about a poisonous tree.(if there was one)
Why didn't we in 2012? We had Bradford. No reason to at that point. But it's not like there's been nothing out there the past few years. We've just fucked up.
And frankly, Arians was doing fine with Drew Stanton. It wasn't until he was forced to start Ryan Lindley that they really struggled. Which makes sense considering Lindley is Keith Null bad.
The issue with your contention is that Jeff Fisher has only showed that he can't make the right decision about the QB position while in St. Louis. Why should I bet on him getting it right this time? Fool me once...
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