Jared Goff vs Vikings (Analysis) ~Matt Waldman

[Scirca]

Matt Waldman:

Jared Goff's poise is better than you think

You may see some stats that show the disparity of Goff's production against contending teams and also-rans. First, will those analysts provide the same context for all starting quarterbacks and second, how much are dropped passes and fumbles factors into the equation if at all?

When it comes to No. 2, I'd bet very little.

Goff performed better than his box score, just like he did against the Seahawks. He stood in the pocket and hit tight-window throws on pivotal down and distance situations.

This 2nd and 11 is a positive play even if it isn't one in the box score. Goff displays the pocket presence to wait as long as possible in the pocket before eluding the oncoming defender.

The longer the quarterback can stand in the pocket before climbing for flushing, the less time and space the opponent has to change direction and adjust to the quarterback's move. Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson are well-known for waiting until the last moment. Goff does this well enough to spin around the back side, reset, and give only his receiver a chance at the target.

One of the bigger questions of those unfamiliar with Goff's game at Cal or, even last year, wondered if Goff could handle punishment from a physical defense. Here's another clip of evidence that indicates we should stop questioning his physical and mental toughness.

Three plays later, Goff remains poised despite Barr's earlier plaster job. He maneuvers the pocket with the same poise and patience that he's displayed against less physical teams.

Goff wasn't the problem today. The Rams receiving corps dropped the ball before and after the catch. Here's Cooper Kupp losing the ball at the 1.

Kupp has been one of my favorite rookie receivers from the 2017 class, but I've noted in this column past examples where Kupp has come up short in the red zone. I think he'll grow into a more reliable red zone target, but it has been a frustrating development for a player who even Vikings coach Mike Zimmer labeled as the Rams best receiver this year.

Here's Kupp drop on third down.

In the second half, the Vikings began peppering the Rams with A-gap pressure and I thought Goff responded well, even if he wasn't statistically productive.

The statistically-driven narrative will be that Goff isn't that good because the Rams don’t produce at the same high rate against strong defenses. However, Goff did his job; his receivers and line didn't.
















P.S My take: Jared Goff wasn't the reason we lost. He is already better than Wentz (use the eyeball test), just compare their games last night. Goff is progressing at an alarming rate, Greg Olson deserves more credit than he has been getting. Goff looked like Joe Montana last night. Goff's in just his 17th game is displaying the confidence and poise of an Aaron Rodgers on the road, in hostile Viking territory. He made some mistakes but no QB is perfect. Imagine him next year, or the year after that..... He does need to work on his throw on the run accuracy with Tom House and Adam Dedeaux @3DQB. I'd also like to see him add another 10-15 pounds.

 

[DaveFan'51]

Nice read, great analysis!

 

[Ram65]

Yes very good read. Posted the link in the Goff Observation thread. I rewatched the game but this slow motion really gives a better look at how Goff avoids pressure and stays composed. Took a hit and came right back.

 

[Scirca]

Yes very good read. Posted the link in the Goff Observation thread. I rewatched the game but this slow motion really gives a better look at how Goff avoids pressure and stays composed. Took a hit and came right back.

Watch how the media turns it into, Goff is trash, Gurley is the reason why they win. Goff is just game-manager who rides on Gurleys back. This game pissed me off so much, McVay was the reason why we lost this game. He was completely oblivious to what was happening last night. The defense couldn't stop them, and he kept giving them the ball back. Thelien was exposing the rookie, the pass rush was embarassing last night, and to top it all off, you don't even give Goff the chance to make something.. anything happen on 4th down all fucking game.... It made me sick to my stomach, and I still cannot get over it. As I was watching the Vikings-Redskins game last week, Gruden called two horseshit run plays in a row in the most important moment of the game(it was after the second pick Case threw, the defense game them a chance). If the franchise believed in Cousins, I have no doubt in my mind Gruden would have been fired after that game for that shit. In my mind, I was thinking, man I wonder if McVay would be stupid enough to do this shit next week against the Vikings, if they were in that situation, and there you fucking go, he does it too.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Like I said in the Goff Observation thread, of the 10 things that caused the loss, Goff might be somewhere around 8th.

 

[Ram65]

Watch how the media turns it into, Goff is trash, Gurley is the reason why they win. Goff is just game-manager who rides on Gurleys back. This game ticked me off so much, McVay was the reason why we lost this game. He was completely oblivious to what was happening last night. The defense couldn't stop them, and he kept giving them the ball back. Thelien was exposing the rookie, the pass rush was embarassing last night, and to top it all off, you don't even give Goff the chance to make something.. anything happen on 4th down all freaking game....

Who needs to wait for the media when we have LAchamp right here.

I think it was a team loss. After rewatching the game the Rams made more mistakes than the Vikings and the Vikings made more plays. At first I thought it was on McVay. One thing I wish I saw were shorter routes/throws when the Vikings where getting pressure. Is that on Goff or McVay?

 

[fearsomefour]

Matt Waldman:

Jared Goff's poise is better than you think

You may see some stats that show the disparity of Goff's production against contending teams and also-rans. First, will those analysts provide the same context for all starting quarterbacks and second, how much are dropped passes and fumbles factors into the equation if at all?

When it comes to No. 2, I'd bet very little.

Goff performed better than his box score, just like he did against the Seahawks. He stood in the pocket and hit tight-window throws on pivotal down and distance situations.

This 2nd and 11 is a positive play even if it isn't one in the box score. Goff displays the pocket presence to wait as long as possible in the pocket before eluding the oncoming defender.

The longer the quarterback can stand in the pocket before climbing for flushing, the less time and space the opponent has to change direction and adjust to the quarterback's move. Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson are well-known for waiting until the last moment. Goff does this well enough to spin around the back side, reset, and give only his receiver a chance at the target.

One of the bigger questions of those unfamiliar with Goff's game at Cal or, even last year, wondered if Goff could handle punishment from a physical defense. Here's another clip of evidence that indicates we should stop questioning his physical and mental toughness.

Three plays later, Goff remains poised despite Barr's earlier plaster job. He maneuvers the pocket with the same poise and patience that he's displayed against less physical teams.

Goff wasn't the problem today. The Rams receiving corps dropped the ball before and after the catch. Here's Cooper Kupp losing the ball at the 1.

Kupp has been one of my favorite rookie receivers from the 2017 class, but I've noted in this column past examples where Kupp has come up short in the red zone. I think he'll grow into a more reliable red zone target, but it has been a frustrating development for a player who even Vikings coach Mike Zimmer labeled as the Rams best receiver this year.

Here's Kupp drop on third down.

In the second half, the Vikings began peppering the Rams with A-gap pressure and I thought Goff responded well, even if he wasn't statistically productive.

The statistically-driven narrative will be that Goff isn't that good because the Rams don’t produce at the same high rate against strong defenses. However, Goff did his job; his receivers and line didn't.
















P.S My take: Jared Goff wasn't the reason we lost. He is already better than Wentz (use the eyeball test), just compare their games last night. Goff is progressing at an alarming rate, Greg Olson deserves more credit than he has been getting. Goff looked like Joe Montana last night. Goff's in just his 17th game is displaying the confidence and poise of an Aaron Rodgers on the road, in hostile Viking territory. He made some mistakes but no QB is perfect. Imagine him next year, or the year after that..... He does need to work on his throw on the run accuracy with Tom House and Adam Dedeaux @3DQB. I'd also like to see him add another 10-15 pounds.

I hate when someone says "the eyeball test" that usually means they don't have proof of what they are saying.
I don't care how Wentz is progressing. They are both talented and growing. I like our guy. Don't need endless comparisons.
Good break down.
Not bad for a "trailer" (blue font)
He is right about Olson. He will get OC looks this offseason and he must be retained long term. Would give him a nice raise and what he wants to keep him in the fold.

 

[GoodBadUgly]

I agree Goff is tough. That question has been answered.

I discount most of this positive review of Goff, when I can't find one reference to his being a 2-read (in some cases less) QB at this stage of his development. I'm fairly sure this will improve, and he's shown signs of it already on plays earlier this season, but most of the time it is as if he is counting on the design of the play and his read on the D (pre-snap) to determine where he's going before the snap and doesn't seem to adjust.

The perfect example of this is when he throws deep into triple coverage (if Woods doesn't make a great defensive play, it's an INT) while Gurley is in the flat with NOBODY in front of him. It's anywhere from a 25 yard gain to a TD with a simple flick of the wrist and he never even gazes his way. This is my problem with Goff. Keeping fingers crossed he improves quickly, because we will never move the ball consistently when teams realize they just have to fool him pre-snap.

 

[Scirca]

I agree Goff is tough. That question has been answered.

I discount most of this positive review of Goff, when I can't find one reference to his being a 2-read (in some cases less) QB at this stage of his development. I'm fairly sure this will improve, and he's shown signs of it already on plays earlier this season, but most of the time it is as if he is counting on the design of the play and his read on the D (pre-snap) to determine where he's going before the snap and doesn't seem to adjust.

The perfect example of this is when he throws deep into triple coverage (if Woods doesn't make a great defensive play, it's an INT) while Gurley is in the flat with NOBODY in front of him. It's anywhere from a 25 yard gain to a TD with a simple flick of the wrist and he never even gazes his way. This is my problem with Goff. Keeping fingers crossed he improves quickly, because we will never move the ball consistently when teams realize they just have to fool him pre-snap.

You have to understand how progressions work. One of the problems with the progression system is that sometimes, you miss the open guy. Gurley is the checkdown on that play.
1. What look does the defense give you.
2. That look the defense gives you then determines your progression, and it's a high-to-low concept on that play-action. Gurley is the checkdown, you have to remember that. The Vikings blitz, and Goff doesn't have the luxury of going through all his reads while letting the play develop at the same time, while also accounting for the blitz, and having to remember his checkdown is open. You don't think Goff didn't see it on film when he got back to to sideline. It stands out because of how that game was going, but when you understand how progression systems work, it happens sometimes. That's one of the flaws of progression systems.

Also Goff isn't a 2 read QB, go watch the youtube video of the how the Vikings defended the Rams offense. Goff goes through his reads, sometimes back and forth, 1-2-3-2- and ends at 2. And that's just one example.

 

[Rmfnlt]

The perfect example of this is when he throws deep into triple coverage (if Woods doesn't make a great defensive play, it's an INT) while Gurley is in the flat with NOBODY in front of him. It's anywhere from a 25 yard gain to a TD with a simple flick of the wrist and he never even gazes his way. This is my problem with Goff. Keeping fingers crossed he improves quickly, because we will never move the ball consistently when teams realize they just have to fool him pre-snap.

2 things that give me hope (that this will improve):
1] Coaches and tape - we all know they will pour over all the plays and this one particular (among others) will be reviewed for improvement.
2] He's a rookie (yes, he is)

Time... patience... optimism...hope...

I used to say "hope is not a plan"... and, under Fisher, it wasn't. But one year (less than, actually) removed from Fisher, hope seems much more plausible now.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

Matt Waldman:

Jared Goff's poise is better than you think

You may see some stats that show the disparity of Goff's production against contending teams and also-rans. First, will those analysts provide the same context for all starting quarterbacks and second, how much are dropped passes and fumbles factors into the equation if at all?

When it comes to No. 2, I'd bet very little.

Goff performed better than his box score, just like he did against the Seahawks. He stood in the pocket and hit tight-window throws on pivotal down and distance situations.

This 2nd and 11 is a positive play even if it isn't one in the box score. Goff displays the pocket presence to wait as long as possible in the pocket before eluding the oncoming defender.

The longer the quarterback can stand in the pocket before climbing for flushing, the less time and space the opponent has to change direction and adjust to the quarterback's move. Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson are well-known for waiting until the last moment. Goff does this well enough to spin around the back side, reset, and give only his receiver a chance at the target.

One of the bigger questions of those unfamiliar with Goff's game at Cal or, even last year, wondered if Goff could handle punishment from a physical defense. Here's another clip of evidence that indicates we should stop questioning his physical and mental toughness.

Three plays later, Goff remains poised despite Barr's earlier plaster job. He maneuvers the pocket with the same poise and patience that he's displayed against less physical teams.

Goff wasn't the problem today. The Rams receiving corps dropped the ball before and after the catch. Here's Cooper Kupp losing the ball at the 1.

Kupp has been one of my favorite rookie receivers from the 2017 class, but I've noted in this column past examples where Kupp has come up short in the red zone. I think he'll grow into a more reliable red zone target, but it has been a frustrating development for a player who even Vikings coach Mike Zimmer labeled as the Rams best receiver this year.

Here's Kupp drop on third down.

In the second half, the Vikings began peppering the Rams with A-gap pressure and I thought Goff responded well, even if he wasn't statistically productive.

The statistically-driven narrative will be that Goff isn't that good because the Rams don’t produce at the same high rate against strong defenses. However, Goff did his job; his receivers and line didn't.
















P.S My take: Jared Goff wasn't the reason we lost. He is already better than Wentz (use the eyeball test), just compare their games last night. Goff is progressing at an alarming rate, Greg Olson deserves more credit than he has been getting. Goff looked like Joe Montana last night. Goff's in just his 17th game is displaying the confidence and poise of an Aaron Rodgers on the road, in hostile Viking territory. He made some mistakes but no QB is perfect. Imagine him next year, or the year after that..... He does need to work on his throw on the run accuracy with Tom House and Adam Dedeaux @3DQB. I'd also like to see him add another 10-15 pounds.

Me likey

 

[Dieter the Brock]

I hate when someone says "the eyeball test" that usually means they don't have proof of what they are saying.
I don't care how Wentz is progressing. They are both talented and growing. I like our guy. Don't need endless comparisons.
Good break down.
Not bad for a "trailer" (blue font)
He is right about Olson. He will get OC looks this offseason and he must be retained long term. Would give him a nice raise and what he wants to keep him in the fold.

I sorta like the Goff / Wentz comparisons -- especially considering both are playing so well -- we're gonna watch these guys battle it out for Championships for the next 15 years

 

[SteveBrown]

Goff did all he could do...and it was good.
HE isn't R Wilson or Wentz....just like Brees couldnt have won the Vikings,either (with his legs).
Goff is good.

 

[Scirca]

Goff did all he could do...and it was good.
HE isn't R Wilson or Wentz....just like Brees couldnt have won the Vikings,either (with his legs).
Goff is good.

I guarantee you, Wentz wouldn't be placed above Goff if Kupp had made that catch against the Seahawks, who had a healthy Sherman, Chancellor, Earl Thomas, and Cliff Avril.

 

[SteezyEndo]

Goff is going to be leet as f. Seriously he has the tools.

 

[Ram65]

The perfect example of this is when he throws deep into triple coverage (if Woods doesn't make a great defensive play, it's an INT) while Gurley is in the flat with NOBODY in front of him. It's anywhere from a 25 yard gain to a TD with a simple flick of the wrist and he never even gazes his way. This is my problem with Goff. Keeping fingers crossed he improves quickly, because we will never move the ball consistently when teams realize they just have to fool him pre-snap.

Scirca explains why Gurley was the third option. Goff had little time to look over the field with the blitz coming. I didn't like the play call. At the time the Rams were moving the ball and this kinda stalled the drive or at least set up the stall. Look at that video which shows how the Vikings knew what the Rams were going to do on many plays. Looking at the video the Vikings had the Rams tendencies and had the perfect defensive shifts after Goff changed the play. McVay looked too predictable and Goff could not change things again with the crowd noise. I don't know if McVay needs to add some motion or Goff needs to get the Vikings to show their hand first at the line of scrimmage. That would be hard to do with the crowd noise. This was very revealing.

You have to understand how progressions work. One of the problems with the progression system is that sometimes, you miss the open guy. Gurley is the checkdown on that play.
1. What look does the defense give you.
2. That look the defense gives you then determines your progression, and it's a high-to-low concept on that play-action. Gurley is the checkdown, you have to remember that. The Vikings blitz, and Goff doesn't have the luxury of going through all his reads while letting the play develop at the same time, while also accounting for the blitz, and having to remember his checkdown is open. You don't think Goff didn't see it on film when he got back to to sideline. It stands out because of how that game was going, but when you understand how progression systems work, it happens sometimes.

Also Goff isn't a 2 read QB, go watch the youtube video of the how the Vikings defended the Rams offense. Goff goes through his reads, sometimes back and forth, 1-2-3-2- and ends at 2.

 

[Ramrasta]

Goff had an average performance, nothing to praise. He was going up against one of the tougher defenses in football but didn’t exactly prove much.

The receivers helped him very little this game but the offense stalled mostly due to us being one dimensional and making countless mistakes.

Does my eye test tell me Goff is better than Wentz? Hahaha, um... no, but it does tell me we have one of the better QBs in this league and he has not yet reached his potential.

 

[dieterbrock]

The perfect example of this is when he throws deep into triple coverage (if Woods doesn't make a great defensive play, it's an INT) while Gurley is in the flat with NOBODY in front of him. It's anywhere from a 25 yard gain to a TD with a simple flick of the wrist and he never even gazes his way. This is my problem with Goff. Keeping fingers crossed he improves quickly, because we will never move the ball consistently when teams realize they just have to fool him pre-snap.

No QB would have made that play
He got drilled as he was throwing the ball.
There was no time to look off that route as the pressure was coming right at him
Goff made his mistakes in the game, but that wasnt one them IMO
And if he doesnt get hit, the throw isnt short and who knows what happens, Woods did have a step

 

[Merlin]

Goff still needs to get better. He's come a long way, but he's not quite where we need him to be just yet. Good thing is there are a few more really tough games for him to condition himself for the playoffs in, and if we can win a couple of them this team will definitely get in.

Real happy with his development, but we got our butts kicked Sunday across the board offensively. Need the kid to play better and I'm confident if we have to go into Minnesota in the playoffs he will look a lot better.

 

[bwdenverram]

Watching this in slow mo you realize even more how poorly our OL really did perform. Golf made plays when the pocket constantly collapsed.