Is Sam Bradford better than Nick Foles?

[RamseyF]

The funny thing is that when Kelly traded Shady McCoy, he was criticized. People said he should go back to college.
Now he's added a big dollar back up QB in Sanchez, signed not 1 but 2 free agent rb to more money than McCoy and traded his pro bowl qb for a high priced guy that will go 22 months between appearance in an NFL game. All the while he has done little to improve his defense which gave up almost 30 points per game in the final 4 games which at 1-3 knocked him out of the playoffs
So yeah the idea that it means something that Kelly wanted bradford? Please.
Oh and Tim Tebow has been seen working out in Philly too.....
Genius?

As for Foles vs Bradford, I'll take the actual, factual, 2013 pro bowl and top 5 QBR season over the guy who's career stats include an asterix because "If he had this or that, he MIGHT have been"

Wasn't just Kelly who wanted Sam. And he traded McCoy for defensive help and then signed Murray to replace McCoy.

And I really don't care about Kelly. He does have back-to-back 10-6 seasons coming out of college. I don't see how criticizing Kelly makes any kind of case. He is what he is, if you see that is bad, then that is your opinion. But others may see him as good.

But I respect your opinion. It's as good as mine or any other posters. I know I was wrong about Sam having trade value, I underestimated his value by at least two rounds, so I may not be totally objective. I guess I have some bias against Sam because of injury and it clouded my judgment. I credit Snead for making sure he got Bradford's true worth. He made a great trade. Bias plays into things, both for and against. Some people said no one would trade for Bradford and they were wrong. Maybe that kind of plays into things.

 

[RamseyF]

People over-emphasize the position.

Quarterbacks are an important part of a team, but the key word here is part.

I think Bradford may very well be a better fit in Philadelphia if he can stay healthy and I'm excited to see how he works out there. But I'm far more interested and hopeful that Foles is a better fit in St. Louis.

So, you are saying we're all wrong?

You know, you have a point. you may be 100% right on that.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

@RamseyF

It is just like any job. If you have the desire to do it then you pursue training in it. You can go to college or get an apprenticeship (which is more like what GMs did). You learn it. Some people are cut out to do only one job and others are capable of wearing many different hats. I don't think their job is that hard. I actually think it would be one of the most exciting and interesting jobs I could get. That doesn't mean that I think I could do any job out there. I wouldn't want to be a brain surgeon, nor do I think I am cut out for it. I really don't like the idea of cutting people open. Now could I be a neurologist? I think I could. Do I think that Snead could do my job? With a few years of training he could probably do it pretty well.

Just because fans are on message boards does not mean they are all dumbies. On the contrary, football fans come from all walks off life and often these boards are filled with very intelligent and successful people.

If NFL GM was a college major that was offered and there were enough jobs available in it that I thought I could get hired and make a living, when I went to school I certainly would have chosen it. But that is not how it works so I studied to be a Landscape Architect. Getting a job even as an NFL scout is very difficult if you don't have an in. It doesn't make it a difficult job. It just means that you have a way in. If I didn't have to work full time then maybe I could start a website to prove my skill but even then a guy that did just that like Lance Zeirlein had connections since his Dad was already in the business. And even at that, he landed a job with NFL network/.com and not an NFL team.

Getting a job and doing it well is far too often not about what you are capable of, but what credentials you have or who you know and the latter, unfortunately, carries far more weight.

 

[RamseyF]

It is just like any job. If you have the desire to do it then you pursue training in it. You can go to college or get an apprenticeship (which is more like what GMs did). You learn it. Some people are cut out to do only one job and others are capable of wearing many different hats. I don't think their job is that hard. I actually think it would be one of the most exciting and interesting jobs I could get. That doesn't mean that I think I could do any job out there. I wouldn't want to be a brain surgeon, nor do I think I am cut out for it. I really don't like the idea of cutting people open. Now could I be a neurologist? I think I could. Do I think that Snead could do my job? With a few years of training he could probably do it pretty well.

Just because fans are on message boards does not mean they are all dumbies. On the contrary, football fans come from all walks off life and often these boards are filled with very intelligent and successful people.

If NFL GM was a college major that was offered and there were enough jobs available in it that I thought I could get hired and make a living, when I went to school I certainly would have chosen it. But that is not how it works so I studied to be a Landscape Architect. Getting a job even as an NFL scout is very difficult if you don't have an in. It doesn't make it a difficult job. It just means that you have a way in. If I didn't have to work full time then maybe I could start a website to prove my skill but even then a guy that did just that like Lance Zeirlein had connections since his Dad was already in the business. And even at that, he landed a job with NFL network/.com and not an NFL team.

Getting a job and doing it well is far too often not about what you are capable of, but what credentials you have or who you know and the latter, unfortunately, carries far more weight.

I didn't say we were all dummies, just that where we are now we don't have enough experience to be a GM. I was just pointing out that you don't consider it that hard and maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. I though you were saying you could go in an turn the Browns or Raiders around right now. This instant.

But now we have some agreement. If someone got a job, worked his way through the ranks and garnered that experience, then one day he'd be qualified to be GM. I agree with that. we have common ground there.

And that's why I mentioned the Bradford has no trade value because it shows how wrong we are right now. With experience we would learn and know that he had trade value, a #1 value.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Well, what you or I think doesn't matter. We kind of need some proof.

Did you think Sam had trade value? Or were you one of those who said no one would give anything for him?

Anyway, you win. I know where you are coming from, it's a good discussion and you know where I am coming from.

Not trying to win. Just discussing. Even Snead said he was not even planning on trading Sam. But at the combine a reporter asked the question and then some teams inquired, but it really wasn't even serious at the time. Now if Snead really thought he could trade Bradford for what he got then I think he would have pursued it sooner. I know I would have. I felt just like you that nobody wanted Sam/contract/knee. I know I didn't want it for the Rams. It was handcuffing the team. Apparently Snead felt the same way as you and I do. He didn't want Sam/contract/knee. That is why he only wanted to pay Sam 5 million instead of the 12. You think like a GM too. Chip Kelly has had some good seasons but the jury is still out on his GM moves since he just recently got the GM power he craved. He will either rise or burn because of them. As far as the Browns wanting Sam, well I don't really care what they do. That team is a mess and they were even dumb enough to draft Manziel because Johnny sent a text telling them he would wreck the league and a fan on the street told the owner that the Browns need Manzeil. That is not a good way to run a team.

 

[RamseyF]

. As far as the Browns wanting Sam, well I don't really care what they do. That team is a mess and they were even dumb enough to draft Manziel because Johnny sent a text telling them he would wreck the league and a fan on the street told the owner that the Browns need Manzeil. That is not a good way to run a team.

well, though many a Rams fan wanted Manziel last year. But, like criticizing Kelly or the Browns, what does that prove? I guess you are saying since they are a mess, the fact that they wanted Bradford mean nothing.

And the other guy went after Chip Kelly so as to show he's a mess, too.

That leaves the other team(s) that offered a #1. Snead said " a few". So, to me, and I could be reading too much into it, that means at least 3. So, if we find out that, say, the Broncos wanted Bradford to backup Manning this year and take over the year after that? Would that mean they they are a mess? I cannot say that it was the Broncos. But it was someone. That's why going after kelly's or the Browns' credibility really goes nowhere.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I didn't say we were all dummies, just that where we are now we don't have enough experience to be a GM. I was just pointing out that you don't consider it that hard and maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. I though you were saying you could go in an turn the Browns or Raiders around right now. This instant.

But now we have some agreement. If someone got a job, worked his way through the ranks and garnered that experience, then one day he'd be qualified to be GM. I agree with that. we have common ground there.

And that's why I mentioned the Bradford has no trade value because it shows how wrong we are right now. With experience we would learn and know that he had trade value, a #1 value.

Well you misunderstand me a bit. After playing GM for 40 years I think I have interned enough that I could actually do that job pretty well. I have been studying it since I was a kid and once the internet was invented the flood of information about the teams and moves they make has made learning the job that much easier.

Sure there are parts of it that we are not privy to or that we don't get to read about it because they just are not interesting enough for reporters to write stories about. So, yes there would be a learning curve with those areas.

Some fans watch the games and don't care about the offseason and many others follow the offseason very intently, almost as fervently as they watch the games. I have always loved the offseason. Being an NFL GM would be the one job at the top of my list as the best possible job to have.

Maybe the reason that there is so much turnover with NFL GMs is because of the way people have to go about getting in position to get the job in the first place. Only hiring people you know doesn't always get the best candidates to groom for a position. And just having desire doesn't mean someone is the best candidate to climb the ladder and hold the final spot.

But that is neither here nor there. I don't see any of it changing as long as I am around.

 

[RamseyF]

Well you misunderstand me a bit. After playing GM for 40 years I think I have interned enough that I could actually do that job pretty well. I have been studying it since I was a kid and once the internet was invented the flood of information about the teams and moves they make has made learning the job that much easier.

Sure there are parts of it that we are not privy to or that we don't get to read about it because they just are not interesting enough for reporters to write stories about. So, yes there would be a learning curve with those areas.

Some fans watch the games and don't care about the offseason and many others follow the offseason very intently, almost as fervently as they watch the games. I have always loved the offseason. Being an NFL GM would be the one job at the top of my list as the best possible job to have.

Maybe the reason that there is so much turnover with NFL GMs is because of the way people have to go about getting in position to get the job in the first place. Only hiring people you know doesn't always get the best candidates to groom for a position. And just having desire doesn't mean someone is the best candidate to climb the ladder and hold the final spot.

But that is neither here nor there. I don't see any of it changing as long as I am around.

okay, fair enough. I didn;t intentially misread you, but I got that part wrong

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

well, though many a Rams fan wanted Manziel last year. But, like criticizing Kelly or the Browns, what does that prove? I guess you are saying since they are a mess, the fact that they wanted Bradford mean nothing.

And the other guy went after Chip Kelly so as to show he's a mess, too.

That leaves the other team(s) that offered a #1. Snead said " a few". So, to me, and I could be reading too much into it, that means at least 3. So, if we find out that, say, the Broncos wanted Bradford to backup Manning this year and take over the year after that? Would that mean they they are a mess? I cannot say that it was the Broncos. But it was someone. That's why going after kelly's or the Browns' credibility really goes nowhere.

Now you have to put in into perspective. The Broncos (fan rumor) would be dealing from a position of power. They have a QB and could give Sam more time to heal. But there is no evidence that they offered a first rounder. The reports were that it was Buffalo and Cleveland. Buffalo fired a very successful coach. The most successful coach they have had since Marv Levy and they replaced him with a Rah Rah blowhard in Rex Smith, who has done little as a head coach but is a very good DC, albeit on one of the best run organizations in the NFL. Is all of Rex's success with the Ravens as a DC accredited to him or the GM and players since that franchise never seems to have a down year? They are fine without Rex.

So you have 'Paint my truck with a Bills logo and my team is gonna punch you in the mouth Rex Ryan' and the Disfunctional Browns wanting to give up firsts for Sam....and Chip. Just saying it is not a ringing endorsement for Bradford suitors.

 

[RamseyF]

Now you have to put in into perspective. The Broncos (fan rumor) would be dealing from a position of power. They have a QB and could give Sam more time to heal. But there is no evidence that they offered a first rounder. The reports were that it was Buffalo and Cleveland. .

I realize that it was a fan rumor. But there was no evidence of this "I don't think Snead even really thought Sam could bring what he did."

To be fair, all of us offer up things with no evidence.

edit: The Bills don't have a #1 pick. It would have had to be next-years #1

 

[Faceplant]

Man, the season can't get here soon enough........

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

okay, fair enough. I didn;t intentially misread you, but I got that part wrong

BTW there is no really any exact way to pull off this GM and head coaching gig. There are all kinds of GMS and all kinds of head coaches. It is a job beriddled with opinions, which is something that fans about with.

 

[Zaphod]

So, you are saying we're all wrong?

You know, you have a point. you may be 100% right on that.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just stating my own opinion. This is the ultimate team game and I really think some players fit certain systems better.

To put it in perspective, I played a lot of hockey and I eventually ended up minding the net. Now, a lot of people over-emphasize that position, but seriously, who wants to be in there all game right? I loved to skate, I loved to fore-check and get physical, and later on I really loved playing defense and playing to my own goalie's strengths. So that's when I started dressing like the stay puffed marshmallow man. Your lose your goalie somehow and you have a guy who fills in, but you can tell he'd rather be out there skating. He's thinking about taking that puck up the ice, right? He's not thinking about being set and taking the right angles, predicting the play, and working to his own team's strengths. So that's when I very begrudgingly took it up. It turned out that I really enjoyed it, and found the mental acuity that it requires, as well as the demand of constantly taking the angle and being ready throughout the game (lower stance for a goalie is a lot like horse stance and I would train for it with horse stance a lot).

The point is that a lot of my teammates really made me out to be the most important player on the team, which is something your shrug off to them but take seriously yourself as you don't want to let anyone down, right? But to really describe it simply, my biggest accomplishment would always be earning shut outs, and I always felt those were only possible because of how my team mates played that night.

I won't be sad if Bradford works out well for the Eagles, but more than anything I hope that Foles works out well for us. I think he can and that's why they pursued a trade with the eagles.

 

[RamseyF]

So you have 'Paint my truck with a Bills logo and my team is gonna punch you in the mouth Rex Ryan' and the Disfunctional Browns wanting to give up firsts for Sam....and Chip. Just saying it is not a ringing endorsement for Bradford suitors.

why would you lump Kelly in with Ryan and the Browns? Chip made Foles. he improved Sanchez

 

[blue4]

Bradford is the better QB. I've watched a few of Foles games from 2013 and 2014. My impression of him was an average QB who was propped up by his supporting cast in 13 and was let down by his supporting cast in 14. That was my opinion of him before he was a Ram, not going to change just because he's a Ram now. I do think it was a good trade as we got a more health reliable starter and some better picks to help out the OL which is all we ever needed in the first place. All in all, the best possible outcome for the Rams. Much better than the plan I favored, trading a pick for Glennon. Even better than my fantasy plan of trading for Carr.

As for Bradford, the supporting cast he had in his time here was absolutely putrid. The coaching he had was awful. The offensive players at WR and OL along with the game planning and playcalling were most of the time disgraceful. There are actual people out there who still think Brandon Gibson was a playmaker. I don't see how anyone could say with certainty what Bradford could or could not do in that offensive setting. I mean, here we are for the 10th straight year worrying because we have no OL. The only time he ever had any talent to work with they were rookies and Cook and he had a 90.9 rating with 14tds and 4 picks. Quick hadn't even developed yet. 2015 will be the first time he'll have a smart offensive coach and talent around him to work with. If he doesn't succeed then, and stays healthy obviously, I'll be ready to talk about what he can and can't do.

 

[RaminExile]

Bradford is the better QB. I've watched a few of Foles games from 2013 and 2014. My impression of him was an average QB who was propped up by his supporting cast in 13 and was let down by his supporting cast in 14. That was my opinion of him before he was a Ram, not going to change just because he's a Ram now. I do think it was a good trade as we got a more health reliable starter and some better picks to help out the OL which is all we ever needed in the first place. All in all, the best possible outcome for the Rams. Much better than the plan I favored, trading a pick for Glennon. Even better than my fantasy plan of trading for Carr.

As for Bradford, the supporting cast he had in his time here was absolutely putrid. The coaching he had was awful. The offensive players at WR and OL along with the game planning and playcalling were most of the time disgraceful. There are actual people out there who still think Brandon Gibson was a playmaker. I don't see how anyone could say with certainty what Bradford could or could not do in that offensive setting. I mean, here we are for the 10th straight year worrying because we have no OL. The only time he ever had any talent to work with they were rookies and Cook and he had a 90.9 rating with 14tds and 4 picks. Quick hadn't even developed yet. 2015 will be the first time he'll have a smart offensive coach and talent around him to work with. If he doesn't succeed then, and stays healthy obviously, I'll be ready to talk about what he can and can't do.

A lot of people don't like to say it that way - and I have a lot of sympathy with them, because it looks like you're "throwing the team" under the bus to make excuses for one player. But I fear that's the way it was. Otherwise why haven't we had a winning season since forever? Because we've had too many poor players. The disappointing thing was we had a real talent at the QB position but couldn't get support around him. One thing that did annoy me was when people talked about Bradford's decision making - and that he never threw it down the field (which he did actually - and he did it pretty well when he did) - it was because guys weren't open. What the hey did people want him to do??

Anyway. Its in the past now and its all academic anyway because Nick Foles is the starting QB of the St Louis Rams. That - as people have said is an upgrade on Shaun Hill or Austin Davis as starting QBs for the past two seasons. Add into this we get a second round pick and the trade becomes a great one to make.

Best of luck to Sam Bradford. I genuinely hope he gets the success in this league that his talent and, from what people say his work ethic deserve. I feel sorry for the kid - but the Rams are going to be a better team and kick his butt if we play Philly any time soon.

 

[blue4]

A lot of people don't like to say it that way - and I have a lot of sympathy with them, because it looks like you're "throwing the team" under the bus to make excuses for one player. But I fear that's the way it was. Otherwise why haven't we had a winning season since forever? Because we've had too many poor players. The disappointing thing was we had a real talent at the QB position but couldn't get support around him. One thing that did annoy me was when people talked about Bradford's decision making - and that he never threw it down the field (which he did actually - and he did it pretty well when he did) - it was because guys weren't open. What the hey did people want him to do??

Anyway. Its in the past now and its all academic anyway because Nick Foles is the starting QB of the St Louis Rams. That - as people have said is an upgrade on Shaun Hill or Austin Davis as starting QBs for the past two seasons. Add into this we get a second round pick and the trade becomes a great one to make.

Best of luck to Sam Bradford. I genuinely hope he gets the success in this league that his talent and, from what people say his work ethic deserve. I feel sorry for the kid - but the Rams are going to be a better team and kick his butt if we play Philly any time soon.

And we have Keenum. I think from what I've seen (only 2 games for Houston) he is at worst equal to Hill and especially Davis. Plus, Foles is young. Maybe the run first, play action offense will suit him well. He is far and away better than Davis, Hill, or Clemons. Give him an OL and with this defense we can make the playoffs.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

why would you lump Kelly in with Ryan and the Browns? Chip made Foles. he improved Sanchez

The book is still out on Kelly. Not saying he is their equal. Just saying he made a similar decision. And he didn't actually make Foles. Once NFL defensive coordinators found Foles weaknesses they exploited them and that is how they slowed down Kelly's offense............which tells us that Chips theory that his offense can be run with any players is not exactly true. Even he knows that now because he got rid of guys that he felt did not buy in and acquired players that he felt fit the offense better.

I could be wrong about Kelly but I think he returns to college in two years. His style and ideas are a better fit there.

 

[LazyWinker]

and he traded McCoy for defensive help

On top of the Bradford trade Chip Kelly sent McCoy to the Bills for Alonso.

Just so I'm not going crazy, Chip Kelly really did straight up trade LeSean McCoy to the Bills for Kiko Alonso? Kelly also traded Foles, 2015 4th, and 2016 2nd to the Rams for Bradford a 2015 5th round, and conditional 2016 pick?

I think I would be able to wrap my head around this if both Alonso and Bradford didn't suffer ACL tears before the season started last year.

Both trades seem lopsided to me. Both the Bills and the Rams won in my opinion. The Bills get a back that is shifty and if his play doesn't decline he will likely be enshrined in Canton one day. The Eagles get a 3rd year linebacker that is coming off an ACL tear. He also has a history of making poor life decisions. I'm surprised the Eagles don't get any draft pick compensation on top of Alonso.

Rams get Foles, upgrade their 5th to a 4th and get a 2nd next year for Bradford. Not only do the Eagles get Bradford, who hasn't played in over a year, they inherit his contract.


IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!!!!!!! NONE OF IT MAKES ANY SENSE!!!!!!! SOMEONE PLEASE MAKE SOME SENSE OF THIS!!!!!! CHIP KELLY TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE THINKING!!!!!!

Rant over

 

[blue4]

The book is still out on Kelly. Not saying he is their equal. Just saying he made a similar decision. And he didn't actually make Foles. Once NFL defensive coordinators found Foles weaknesses they exploited them and that is how they slowed down Kelly's offense............which tells us that Chips theory that his offense can be run with any players is not exactly true. Even he knows that now because he got rid of guys that he felt did not buy in and acquired players that he felt fit the offense better.

I could be wrong about Kelly but I think he returns to college in two years. His style and ideas are a better fit there.

IDK 20 wins vs 12 losses with a playoff berth first two years isn't bad. He's going to prove a lot this year either good or bad. Barring injury of course. Always got to include that with You Know Who at QB.