I have concerns about our O line

[CoachO]

Dude, that's not necessary. We all have separate opinions. That's the case with any board. Thing that separates this board from others is that we can listen and learn from other opinions that are different than our own. Everyone has something to bring to the table here.

I was just pointing out my perception of what he was trying to say. dont take it so personally.

 

[fancents86]

It happens, simple as that man. I'll take rookies who can become great at their craft rather than a mediocre vet who will only last a couple years.

 

[iced]

you sound like the poster boy for "these players will never get any better than the day they got here" crowd.

Lol come on now coach. This is the friggin' show me state.

Brian Quick proved me wrong last season - Jason Smith proved me right. Which one are we getting?

Pardon me for taking the cautious route and waiting before anointing him as a solid fix to the position.

By the way never at any point did I say he's reached his ceiling and we should ditch him.

 

[iced]

http://ramsondemand.com/threads/rams-lt-greg-robinson-recovering-from-toe-surgery-wagoner.35570/

Robinson, whom Fisher has already declared is his starting left tackle moving forward, apparently dealt with the toe injury the final couple of weeks of the season

Not the whole season. So like I said, the toe is not the reason for his play all season long. He had some good games, some bad games - but nothing on tape that makes me think he's the answer... particularly against seattle.

We have 1 touchdown in the last 3 games @ Seattle, and a big reason of that is not being able to protect the QB or run the ball.

 

[Memento]

Not the whole season. So like I said, the toe is not the reason for his play all season long. He had some good games, some bad games - but nothing on tape that makes me think he's the answer... particularly against seattle.

We have 1 touchdown in the last 3 games @ Seattle, and a big reason of that is not being able to protect the QB or run the ball.

No, it's not the only reason. But he didn't play for four straight games, played at guard for three more games until Jake Long got injured in the third game. Then he got thrown into the fire during the remainder of the season. You're right in that he had good games and bad games. But not being settled into one position (which he is this year), not being fully healthy around the end (which he is this year), not coming out of a solid pro-ready system (which he is this year), not having the guys around him to succeed (which he hopefully has this year), and - most importantly - being a redshirt-sophomore rookie (which he isn't this year) cost him more than any part of his talent.

And one man does not make an entire offensive line. Don't forget that we were starting Wells, Long, and Joseph at one point, as well as Barksdale, who badly regressed from his dominant 2013 season. It takes a five-man unit. It takes a strong five-man unit with depth, and if you don't have that, then you're not going to be able to run or pass on everyone. Hopefully, we have that now. Hopefully we don't start guys like Barnes, Jones, and Reynolds at the start of the season, guys who should be quality backups, but should never be Opening Week starters for you.

My hope for the Opening Week line is Robinson - Brown - Rhaney - Saffold - Havenstein. Donnal and Wichmann give us quality young backups who will compete for jobs. Jones gives us a Swiss Army knife who can fill in anywhere (something that is more useful as a backup than as a starter). Reynolds and possibly Barnes (if we keep ten offensive linemen) give us backups with experience.

There are going to be growing pains. Even guys like Fredrick and Smith of the Cowboys had growing pains. But I'd rather have rookies making rookie mistakes and growing and gelling together as a line than having stopgap veterans.

That's the point I'm trying to make. We're again one of the youngest teams in the league. We have more talent than I can remember having in any year since 2006, maybe even more on the defensive side. Let's enjoy the ride.

 

[RamFan503]

I don't think it's a case of automatically thinking that W4P. The same source that says they are great a run blocking also says they're crappy at pass blocking. If you believe the first part why wouldn't you believe the second part. In addition, If they were such great run blockers AND they were great pass blockers too, don't you think they would have been rated much higher and probably have been drafted earlier?

Who's projecting them to start? Certainly not any of the pundits andwhen you think about what Fisher said about still wanting to bring JB back (at what would be a pretty high price for a backup, I'm not sure even Fisher is looking at them being starters. I thnkk he just took the "best of the rest" myself.

I disagree. First off, there aren't many rookies that come into the league as great NFL level pass blockers. Sure there are a few but... Another point is that Havenstein hasn't exactly been asked to do much pass pro. Think about it. Wisconsin was 4th in the nation running the ball but 118th in passing. I would guess that much of the ? about his pass pro are because the pundits don't even know.

I can't find much on how Brown did in pass pro but Louisville allowed quite a few sacks. How much of that was due to having two freshman QBs? I dunno. But he will likely not see the Tackle position except while he is playing along side of him. Will he start? Guess we'll see. But my guess is no.

As to your question though. The reason why some talking heads may say a player is great at run blocking but not at pass pro and be right on one but not on the other is because they simply don't have much to go on in one area but do in another - as is likely the case with Havenstein.

 

[iced]

No, it's not the only reason. But he didn't play for four straight games, played at guard for three more games until Jake Long got injured in the third game. Then he got thrown into the fire during the remainder of the season. You're right in that he had good games and bad games. But not being settled into one position (which he is this year), not being fully healthy around the end (which he is this year), not coming out of a solid pro-ready system (which he is this year), not having the guys around him to succeed (which he hopefully has this year), and - most importantly - being a redshirt-sophomore rookie (which he isn't this year) cost him more than any part of his talent.

he missed the first 4 games because he wasn't ready to play, not cause of injury. I remember fisher at one point describing his head "spinning"

and the link you gave me said he wasn't injured til the final couple of weeks. Early on he just wasn't ready mentally to play

And one man does not make an entire offensive line. Don't forget that we were starting Wells, Long, and Joseph at one point, as well as Barksdale, who badly regressed from his dominant 2013 season. It takes a five-man unit. It takes a strong five-man unit with depth, and if you don't have that, then you're not going to be able to run or pass on everyone. Hopefully, we have that now. Hopefully we don't start guys like Barnes, Jones, and Reynolds at the start of the season, guys who should be quality backups, but should never be Opening Week starters for you.

Nope but it's telling when Barksdale was the best player on the line last year.

My hope for the Opening Week line is Robinson - Brown - Rhaney - Saffold - Havenstein. Donnal and Wichmann give us quality young backups who will compete for jobs. Jones gives us a Swiss Army knife who can fill in anywhere (something that is more useful as a backup than as a starter). Reynolds and possibly Barnes (if we keep ten offensive linemen) give us backups with experience.

I'm good with that line, unless Donnal and Wichmann can compete for the center job.

There are going to be growing pains. Even guys like Fredrick and Smith of the Cowboys had growing pains. But I'd rather have rookies making rookie mistakes and growing and gelling together as a line than having stopgap veterans.

That's the point I'm trying to make. We're again one of the youngest teams in the league. We have more talent than I can remember having in any year since 2006, maybe even more on the defensive side. Let's enjoy the ride.

I'm fine with rookie mistakes - like penalties, maybe a hold.. and I can't evaluate the new guys until they hit the field - they only "knowns" are saffold and robinson. I'd love to see robinson make a leap, particularly in pass pro. There's no doubt he can move people - but he needs to get better in his foot work and his overaggressiveness/over extending. just my 2 cents anyway

 

[Memento]

he missed the first 4 games because he wasn't ready to play, not cause of injury. I remember fisher at one point describing his head "spinning"

and the link you gave me said he wasn't injured til the final couple of weeks. Early on he just wasn't ready mentally to play



Nope but it's telling when Barksdale was the best player on the line last year.


I'm good with that line, unless Donnal and Wichmann can compete for the center job.


I'm fine with rookie mistakes - like penalties, maybe a hold.. and I can't evaluate the new guys until they hit the field - they only "knowns" are saffold and robinson. I'd love to see robinson make a leap, particularly in pass pro. There's no doubt he can move people - but he needs to get better in his foot work and his overaggressiveness/over extending. just my 2 cents anyway

Yes, I know that he wasn't ready to play in the first four games. I never said that it was injury.

Have to disagree on that. Saffold was the best player on that line, and statistics showed it.

Doubt that either of them will be centers; they're too tall for the position. But don't discount Rhaney. Everyone at Rams Park apparently loves him, and it's telling that they kept him on IR when he got hurt instead of releasing him via injury settlement like so many others.

I can agree with that. Robinson does need to make a huge leap from last year. I have total faith that he'll do that. He's a great kid, a hard worker, and above all, incredibly gifted. I know that he'll be a top ten left tackle at least after the end of this season.

 

[DaveFan'51]

Boudreau has a bunch of work ahead the next three months before camp starts, but I'm confident he will find the right combination to develop an exceptional O-Line. We also need to remember, our O-Line will be going against the best D-Line, and a very strong front-7 each practice. So, I really think they will be prepared once the regular season starts. Baptism by fire for the young guys.

I was thinking about how this ^ D-Line of ours will help the NEW O-Line, Glad you brought it up!!
The same thing was said last year, But for various reasons, it didn't work out!
I'm hoping for better luck this year!!

 

[junkman]

I have it in my mind already that day 1 of camp, Haverstein will be running with the 1s. I bet that Donnal makes a real run at starting LG. OL from Wisconsin and Iowa just tend to be good guys to have in the trenches.

But sad truth of the matter is, we'll have no idea where any of these guys are on the depth chart until they go to camp and (shout out to) @CoachO starts feeding us camp reports.

 

[Alan]

BonifayRam forgetting that some swords have two edges:
HC Fisher did Alan.

IMO the statement by Fisher on JB using "still" & "interest" is just plain weak Alan. If the desire to bring JB back into the family I sure would have chosen much better words than those few.

If JB were to return & IMO (its doubtful) what that return will do is move Garrett Reynolds out of the #1 ORT to the #1 ORG. JB would be inserted into #1 ORT.
But that will not last long because Havenstein will bench JB early. That will now put JB in the best NFL position for him. Being the top reserve @ ORT. That's why I don't see JB returning they know he wants starting $$$ & he will not be a Ram starter for too long! They do not want to pay him starting $$ & JB does not want to be paid back up $$$. Just that simple.

I really believe they have planned to keep a heavy OL bevy in number on the master roster this season maybe as high as 11.

That same lukewarm answer/lack of verisimilitude could pertain to him saying he'd drafted one or more starters on the O-line too. Or he's trying to keep the price down for JB by pretending he doesn't have all that much interest. Frankly, I am long past believing anything he says and I can't find anyone else who thinks any of them will be starters. All I read is that they'll contend for a starting psoition which is what they say about 90% of all newly drafted players.

Yeah, I agree with you that JB's probable starting spot would be at RT and that he would probably be the starter. What I disagree with is that signing him would have any affect on Garrett Reynolds place in the O-line pecking order. I think he was brought in to be a backup at both the RT and RG positions. As in what Adam Caplan is saying here:
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5377/garrett-reynolds
Reynolds appeared in 10 games (four starts) as a versatile reserve for Detroit last year. He can play both guard and right tackle, and knows OL coach Paul Boudreau's scheme from their time in Atlanta. Reynolds' signing should not impact whether the Rams bring back free agent RT Joe Barskdale. I'd be willing to bet that even though he came in on a two year contract, he won't be a Ram next year if any of our draftees turn out well. None of that money is guaranteed.

3/18/2015: Signed two-year, $2.2 million contract. The deal included an initial roster bonus of $249,999. Another $2 million is available through incentives based on playing time and Rams wins. 2015: $750,000, 2016: $1.05 million (+ $150,021 roster bonus), 2017: Free Agent

As for your "planned to keep a heavy OL bevy in number", I agree with that completely. In fact, I think that's his whole strategy for filling the holes on the O-line. Draft a bunch of marginal players with some upside and hope one or two turn out OK. That sure isn't the strategy I would use.

It's hard not to agree with that purple stuff though. That's a situation that would work for us CAP wise but have we really improved the talent level on our O-line? I have my doubts there. I think they're just different colored clones. I did a little research as per @DaveFan'51 's request and I have read some good things about his performance in practice in regards to run blocking blocking. Good run blocker but JB is pretty good in that department himself. Continually beaten like a drum in one-on-one pass blocking drills though. As advertised.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1737653/rob-havenstein
"Height limits him to right tackle, where he can deliver consistently enough as a run blocker to compete for a starting role but limitations as a pass blocker could leave his team searching for an upgrade."

Here's some what they say about at madison.com:

“I think by the end of the week, if he keeps going, he could be one of those guys that really sort of sets himself up to move up draft boards and be as high as a second-round draft pick.

"Havenstein was projected as a third-day pick before the week, so a jump to a second-round projection would be quite the feat for one week of work."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement though is it.

"The NFL success of past UW offensive linemen also probably helps Havenstein in the process.

After watching Senior Bowl practice Wednesday, Real GM’s Jeff Risdon said Havenstein isn’t very quick with his arms or hands and his technique isn’t always pretty, but “he’s got the function over form outcomes that do translate well to the next level.”

Lots of good comments about his showing overall though so I'm feeling slightly better and I'm hoping for the best.

As for the other three, hard to find much that is positive.

Here's the best comment I could come up with and it's by someone at the Bleacher Report so...
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...5-scouting-report-grade-for-rams-round-3-pick
"FINAL GRADE: 5.20/9.00 (Quality Backup)"

Of course we need quality backups but I think we just drafted 4 of them.

 

[Alan]

RamFan503 with three comments:
I disagree. First off, there aren't many rookies that come into the league as great NFL level pass blockers. Sure there are a few but... Another point is that Havenstein hasn't exactly been asked to do much pass pro. Think about it. Wisconsin was 4th in the nation running the ball but 118th in passing. I would guess that much of the ? about his pass pro are because the pundits don't even know.

I can't find much on how Brown did in pass pro but Louisville allowed quite a few sacks. How much of that was due to having two freshman QBs? I dunno. But he will likely not see the Tackle position except while he is playing along side of him. Will he start? Guess we'll see. But my guess is no.

As to your question though. The reason why some talking heads may say a player is great at run blocking but not at pass pro and be right on one but not on the other is because they simply don't have much to go on in one area but do in another - as is likely the case with Havenstein.

Here's two answers for your three paragraphs because 1 & 3 are pretty much the same:

True but, and this goes to both your first paragraph and your last one, I think they're relying on other factors when they make comments on things like pass blocking when they don't have much tape. Things like foot speed, athleticism, reaction times,technique (that, I assume, can be coached up but coming from a school well known for coaching O-line fundamentals might mean he's already at his ceiling there) and so on.

You can see some film of him trying to pass block here:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...5-scouting-report-grade-for-rams-round-3-pick

So who will be play RT?

 

[FrantikRam]

I think Barksdale will re-sign. And obviously Blalock is still in play.

Having 8 or so potential starters should allow us to work out a solid 5 to start on opening day....and if they are rookies, thats fine as they will have beaten out some veterans.

 

[Big Willie]

My two cents....

The Rams now have options. They have several young players with a lot of college experience and pedigrees from schools that employ a power run game. These players will make the Rams more stout in the run game (regardless of who is carrying the rock).

The Rams have competition. Who wants it the most? Competition should bring out the best in at least a few of these new players. Plus, the starters will know that another young player is waiting in the wings ready to take their spot.

If memory serves, Barksdale was a JAG and an underperformed before he got to STL; I believe Boudreau can make a player out of at least a couple of these young players.

With a team focused on a run-first approach, you want these types of linemen. The Rams should be a better running team which is what Fisher wants.

 

[FRO]

There is a difference between starting a rookie or two and having 4 out of your 5 linemen not starting an entire year. There will be rough patches. We will be better long term for doing this, but let's not act like all will be well.

 

[ReddingRam]

My two cents....

The Rams now have options. They have several young players with a lot of college experience and pedigrees from schools that employ a power run game. These players will make the Rams more stout in the run game (regardless of who is carrying the rock).

The Rams have competition. Who wants it the most? Competition should bring out the best in at least a few of these new players. Plus, the starters will know that another young player is waiting in the wings ready to take their spot.

If memory serves, Barksdale was a JAG and an underperformed before he got to STL; I believe Boudreau can make a player out of at least a couple of these young players.

With a team focused on a run-first approach, you want these types of linemen. The Rams should be a better running team which is what Fisher wants.

I just posted in another thread kind of the same thing. What we have here is a REAL competition. The best 9 guys standing are going to win the spots. I feel good about that. We aren't sticking with guys because of contracts or veteran respect. It's going to be a dog fight.

 

[Big Willie]

The OL last year was horrific. I will take rookies and their mistakes over injured players (Long), bad guard play, and subpar RT play from Barksdale (in last year of deal...players normally are better in contract years).

 

[Stel]

I think Reynolds was signed as an insurance policy. Didn't cost a lot (I think only his initial $250K bonus was guaranteed) and can play ROT or OG. Gave us a veteran who could fill in as a starter at our two open OL spots (I don't think OC was ever open) depending on the draft and other FA signings. If things go well and Havenstein is our Day 1 ROT and Jamon Brown is our Day 1 OG, Reynolds becomes the multi position back up. If the newbies aren't ready, or there is an injury, Reynolds will be the Day 1 starter and will stay until someone takes his job from him.

 

[jrry32]

I do too @brokeu91

 

[nighttrain]

I remember when Fisher took over, he cut 33 players from previous season ending roster, most of which never played in the NF again. We've come long way
train