Here is an interesting article from the Lions

[Aulac]

Moderator: Please do not merge this thread

Here is an interesting article from the Lions

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2021/01/31/detroit-lions-jared-goff-matthew-stafford-sean-mcvay/

I want folks here to focus on this quote from the article.

By now everyone probably knows how Sean McVay was able to prop up Goff and make him effective in the Rams’ offense. Using eye candy, play-action and a very quarterback-friendly scheme, McVay put Goff in a position to be successful. But even in that environment, Goff never fully developed. Yes, the McVay/Shanahan system has proved that it can make average quarterbacks look good due to the scheme, but does it perhaps hold back their development? By creating so many crutches for them, does it stunt their growth?

What are your thoughts on this quote?

 

[blackbart]

I think someone in Detroit is looking for a reason to be hopeful with Goff as their QB.

 

[Angry Ram]

If it's such a QB friendly scheme, then Jared should've flourished. Ultimately he's responsible for executing the scheme and he didn't hold up his end of the bargain being so turnover prone.

 

[Selassie I]

This may sound a bit harsh... but it fits here.

Have you ever been successful at making chicken salad out of chicken shit?

McSlay has been able to almost perfect it. It's amazing really.

 

[Kevin]

Moderator: Please do not merge this thread

Here is an interesting article from the Lions

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2021/01/31/detroit-lions-jared-goff-matthew-stafford-sean-mcvay/

I want folks here to focus on this quote from the article.

What are your thoughts on this quote?

McVay has criticized his own play calling a number of times. I don’t know if it goes as far as the Detroit writer says, but there is some truth to it.

 

[Dxmissile]

Moderator: Please do not merge this thread

Here is an interesting article from the Lions

https://touchdownwire.usatoday.com/2021/01/31/detroit-lions-jared-goff-matthew-stafford-sean-mcvay/

I want folks here to focus on this quote from the article.

What are your thoughts on this quote?

So I was gonna post this on its own but I think it’s relevant here. I know some are gonna try to blast me for this but hopefully y’all can look at the merit of my words. But I agree with that quote here’s why.

Back before we knew about the move back before anything when they was talking about drafting Goff I was against the move. I was against the move mainly because I saw that Goff wasn’t the type of QB that Fisher likes. Not because I didn’t like Goff. But Fisher was forced to take Goff.

Fisher isn’t a strong offensive minded guy but he’s old school he likes his qbs to be able to move around beat a blitz and scan the field. So he put a lot on their plates and he knew a rookie Goff wasn’t ready for that. A lot of people Gurley included called his offense middle school well to me that’s because he was trying to teach Goff the correct way to play the position. He gave him line call responsibilities to recognize blitz and make the changes at the line. So while the offense was stale and boring he was developing Goff the way Manning got threw in the fire.

Then the MOVE happened! Now everything that Fisher was doing was getting looked at under a microscope because of the pressures of the LA market. He couldn’t sit back and let Goff learn on the job he didn’t even want to start Goff but it’s LA they needed Goff to play. So the RAMS went out and hired a offensive Guru in McVay.

McVay basically scrapped everything that Fisher was teaching Goff no more line calls no more changing the play no more using his own eyes. MCVay was his eyes. I was blasted on this forum because I said that McVay was directing Goff I said that way before we heard about the playclock situation. Goff never got the chance to develope the skills a nfl qb needs he didn’t play in a pro style offense in college andhe didn’t get enough time with Fisher tbh.

I definitely believe McVay hurt Goff they put up big numbers and wins but Goff never got the chance to grow as a qb and when McVay system got learned when Gurley got hurt he got exposed for all the flaws that Fisher was trying to help him overcome. I got killed for saying Goff didn’t know how to read the field or defenses to be fair he was a rookie and not a lot can but I also recognized why Fisher didn’t want to start Goff he knew he wasn’t ready.

 

[Malibu]

If it's such a QB friendly scheme, then Jared should've flourished. Ultimately he's responsible for executing the scheme and he didn't hold up his end of the bargain being so turnover prone.

Can't execute any scheme as good when you don't have the right personel. Hard to throw deep with 3 possession receivers. Hard to throw deep when the OL is one of the worst pass blocking lines in the NFL.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Can't execute any scheme as good when you don't have the right personel. Hard to throw deep with 3 possession receivers. Hard to throw deep when the OL is one of the worst pass blocking lines in the NFL.

Hard to throw deep if you are unwilling to give your WRs a chance to make a play.

Hard to throw deep if you're focus is on Cooper Kupp.

 

[TexasRam]

That same system Aaron Rodgers was in last year. Forcing them to draft a new QB. But we are to believe it propped him up?

Yet they rebuilt the Oline and he’s back to MVP form.

Systems are useless without personnel.

Did Wilson start throwing 5 TD’s a game because of the system or because DK Metcalf was going bananas? Did the system all a sudden stop propping him up or did they get injuries and better defenders such as Ramsey start shutting DK down?

Way to much credit given to systems.

How did Martz system do in SF and Chicago with different players?

There is no such thing as a system that props up an offense by virtue of the system itself. To suggest that Goff was an average QB that was propped up by a system like weekend at Bernies and leading the highest powered offense in the league over two years is quite a stretch of reality.

 

[dieterbrock]

He's not even on the team anymore and we still get new Goff threads?
Goff isnt as bad as some people make him out to be, he's not as good as some people think he is/was.
McVay lost the confidence in him, and he saw an opportunity to replace him and he took it.
Doesnt matter if it was 6 months in the making or 6 minutes.

 

[JIMERAMS]

Hard to throw deep if you are unwilling to give your WRs a chance to make a play.

Hard to throw deep if you're focus is on Cooper Kupp.

well woods had more targets than Krupp did so? Pressure up the middle kills the deep balls and we seen it all year long

 

[Merlin]

I imagine that teaching a QB to be calm and continue reads when he moves off his spot is difficult. Goff is gonna have to want that and work through it this offseason. And then Detroit needs to continue focus on that in camp.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Give it up. McVays main problem is that his offense was figured out and Goff could not take it any further to counter the defense. From there McVays favorite offense was stopped. So he redesigned it, pared it down based on what Goff could do well.

It’s McVays changes that salvaged the offense. But he knows it will not get him to a Super bowl as is. So Goff reached his limits and McVay needed more. So it was time to find a QB that could do more.

If you want a better idea of what McVay wants then watch Wolford’s snaps. Jourdan said once he saw Wolford operate his offense he knew that something had to be done, even if it meant the undersized Wolford starting instead of Goff next year, which he was prepared to let happen.

 

[poLARizing]

So I was gonna post this on its own but I think it’s relevant here. I know some are gonna try to blast me for this but hopefully y’all can look at the merit of my words. But I agree with that quote here’s why.

Back before we knew about the move back before anything when they was talking about drafting Goff I was against the move. I was against the move mainly because I saw that Goff wasn’t the type of QB that Fisher likes. Not because I didn’t like Goff. But Fisher was forced to take Goff.

Fisher isn’t a strong offensive minded guy but he’s old school he likes his qbs to be able to move around beat a blitz and scan the field. So he put a lot on their plates and he knew a rookie Goff wasn’t ready for that. A lot of people Gurley included called his offense middle school well to me that’s because he was trying to teach Goff the correct way to play the position. He gave him line call responsibilities to recognize blitz and make the changes at the line. So while the offense was stale and boring he was developing Goff the way Manning got threw in the fire.

Then the MOVE happened! Now everything that Fisher was doing was getting looked at under a microscope because of the pressures of the LA market. He couldn’t sit back and let Goff learn on the job he didn’t even want to start Goff but it’s LA they needed Goff to play. So the RAMS went out and hired a offensive Guru in McVay.

McVay basically scrapped everything that Fisher was teaching Goff no more line calls no more changing the play no more using his own eyes. MCVay was his eyes. I was blasted on this forum because I said that McVay was directing Goff I said that way before we heard about the playclock situation. Goff never got the chance to develope the skills a nfl qb needs he didn’t play in a pro style offense in college andhe didn’t get enough time with Fisher tbh.

I definitely believe McVay hurt Goff they put up big numbers and wins but Goff never got the chance to grow as a qb and when McVay system got learned when Gurley got hurt he got exposed for all the flaws that Fisher was trying to help him overcome. I got killed for saying Goff didn’t know how to read the field or defenses to be fair he was a rookie and not a lot can but I also recognized why Fisher didn’t want to start Goff he knew he wasn’t ready.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5POJtZ13cY&t=630s


Sounds like Charles Robinson has a different take on it in terms of Goff development.

 

[rdw]

So I was gonna post this on its own but I think it’s relevant here. I know some are gonna try to blast me for this but hopefully y’all can look at the merit of my words. But I agree with that quote here’s why.

Back before we knew about the move back before anything when they was talking about drafting Goff I was against the move. I was against the move mainly because I saw that Goff wasn’t the type of QB that Fisher likes. Not because I didn’t like Goff. But Fisher was forced to take Goff.

Fisher isn’t a strong offensive minded guy but he’s old school he likes his qbs to be able to move around beat a blitz and scan the field. So he put a lot on their plates and he knew a rookie Goff wasn’t ready for that. A lot of people Gurley included called his offense middle school well to me that’s because he was trying to teach Goff the correct way to play the position. He gave him line call responsibilities to recognize blitz and make the changes at the line. So while the offense was stale and boring he was developing Goff the way Manning got threw in the fire.

Then the MOVE happened! Now everything that Fisher was doing was getting looked at under a microscope because of the pressures of the LA market. He couldn’t sit back and let Goff learn on the job he didn’t even want to start Goff but it’s LA they needed Goff to play. So the RAMS went out and hired a offensive Guru in McVay.

McVay basically scrapped everything that Fisher was teaching Goff no more line calls no more changing the play no more using his own eyes. MCVay was his eyes. I was blasted on this forum because I said that McVay was directing Goff I said that way before we heard about the playclock situation. Goff never got the chance to develope the skills a nfl qb needs he didn’t play in a pro style offense in college andhe didn’t get enough time with Fisher tbh.

I definitely believe McVay hurt Goff they put up big numbers and wins but Goff never got the chance to grow as a qb and when McVay system got learned when Gurley got hurt he got exposed for all the flaws that Fisher was trying to help him overcome. I got killed for saying Goff didn’t know how to read the field or defenses to be fair he was a rookie and not a lot can but I also recognized why Fisher didn’t want to start Goff he knew he wasn’t ready.

Good post. Goff still has the responsibility to watch film put in time and learn his job. Sure you can put some of the blame on circumstances of Fisher, the move, and the hiring of McVay but at the end of the day Goff has a job to learn. Sometimes it's not fair but ultimately it's his fault if he didn't learn what he needed to be successful.

 

[oldnotdead]

I've been saying it has been McVay retarding Goff's development for a long time. But it's not the scheme that is the problem. It was Sean's need to micromanage each play. He was in Goff's ear up until the last 15 seconds between each play essentially making the defensive reads. By the time the play is called and they get to the LS there is no time for Goff to really make proper reads. Many times he only had time to simply go with McVay's reads or they got a delay of game when he realized McVay was wrong and tried to read it himself with not enough time to do so.

McVay never really trusted Goff from day one then is surprised when he didn't develop? Give me a freaking break. I think this trade will benefit both sides. Holmes understands the need to build a decent o-line in front of Jared and I think he will do just that. Once he gets that o-line watch out because IMO Goff could very well become the franchise QB everyone envisioned.

McVay conversely won't feel the necessity to coddle Stafford who wouldn't accept it anyway. They already have a good relationship and IMO this offense will change in many important ways. The vertical game will return. Developing an inside power run attack will hold those LBs and make that play-action more effective.

I think this is going to go down as ultimately a WIN=WIN for both teams. The Lions simply need to be patient with Goff until they build the team around him. With Holmes and Ray Agnew both key former Rams their turn around could be dramatic.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5POJtZ13cY&t=630s


Sounds like Charles Robinson has a different take on it in terms of Goff development.

I don’t believe this idea that people will pay by losing their jobs if this move fails.

Haven’t they been following the league since McVay became a head coach? Haven’t they followed Snead’s successes since being paired with McVay? Haven’t they noticed how many McVay assistant coaches get hired by other teams? Fire McVay or Snead, and both have a job in like five seconds. They’d have their choice. Teams would fire their current coach if they thought they could land McVay. Same for Snead.


It’s a stupid notion. It’s one that angry Ram fans say that don’t like the trade and it’s one that talk show hosts say to make a bigger deal of the trade.

Demoff and Kroenke signed off on it. They wanted to build with the Patriots model. That doesn’t happen by dumping a coach after five years.

 

[Merlin]

That take by Charles Robinson is really good. I particularly like his comment re: McVay and his expectations of Goff becoming a great QB and putting his stamp on the offense. Of how that was a byproduct of greatness at the position. There was a window there where he thought Goff would be great.

What the Rams need to do THIS offseason is identify the forces that had them locking up guys early. This actually started with Ogletree in that awkward signing prior to Wade getting him on the field and them trading him. It's a trend and it's a problem They need to fix this. I love that they reward the players who deserve it. But implement a rule set you can all live with, which will fix that, and follow it.

And back to schemes... You can run any scheme you want if you have good enough players. Defensively for example you can run a Tampa 2 (which has been out of vogue for some time due to cover 3's emergence and better run support) you just need to have a great front that can stuff the run a man short. So McVay's offense being "figured out" or teams being able to get ahead vs him in scheme is much more impacting when they have subpar QBing. Because now you gotta adjust things to get the most from the QB, and how are you gonna do that when you also need to stay ahead of modern offenses with the routine adjustments.

 

[Mackeyser]

So I was gonna post this on its own but I think it’s relevant here. I know some are gonna try to blast me for this but hopefully y’all can look at the merit of my words. But I agree with that quote here’s why.

Back before we knew about the move back before anything when they was talking about drafting Goff I was against the move. I was against the move mainly because I saw that Goff wasn’t the type of QB that Fisher likes. Not because I didn’t like Goff. But Fisher was forced to take Goff.

Fisher isn’t a strong offensive minded guy but he’s old school he likes his qbs to be able to move around beat a blitz and scan the field. So he put a lot on their plates and he knew a rookie Goff wasn’t ready for that. A lot of people Gurley included called his offense middle school well to me that’s because he was trying to teach Goff the correct way to play the position. He gave him line call responsibilities to recognize blitz and make the changes at the line. So while the offense was stale and boring he was developing Goff the way Manning got threw in the fire.

Then the MOVE happened! Now everything that Fisher was doing was getting looked at under a microscope because of the pressures of the LA market. He couldn’t sit back and let Goff learn on the job he didn’t even want to start Goff but it’s LA they needed Goff to play. So the RAMS went out and hired a offensive Guru in McVay.

McVay basically scrapped everything that Fisher was teaching Goff no more line calls no more changing the play no more using his own eyes. MCVay was his eyes. I was blasted on this forum because I said that McVay was directing Goff I said that way before we heard about the playclock situation. Goff never got the chance to develope the skills a nfl qb needs he didn’t play in a pro style offense in college andhe didn’t get enough time with Fisher tbh.

I definitely believe McVay hurt Goff they put up big numbers and wins but Goff never got the chance to grow as a qb and when McVay system got learned when Gurley got hurt he got exposed for all the flaws that Fisher was trying to help him overcome. I got killed for saying Goff didn’t know how to read the field or defenses to be fair he was a rookie and not a lot can but I also recognized why Fisher didn’t want to start Goff he knew he wasn’t ready.

That's an interesting take... that Fisher was better for Goff's development and it's McVay that was holding him back.

I couldn't disagree more, but I see what you're saying and it's not without merit.

 

[Memphis Ram]

well woods had more targets than Krupp did so? Pressure up the middle kills the deep balls and we seen it all year long

Didn't Kupp come of the field quite a bit in 12 personnel? That might explain that part. Either way, I've been watching some of these games in All 22 and Goff has missed opportunities to go down field looking at Kupp.