Hekker First Down

[XXXIVwin]

Well, the NFL argued in court that they were sports entertainment and thus no one had legal standing to sue based on the Patriots cheating and depriving ticket holders of a fair contest.

To me, the NFL is simply acknowledging that the fans don’t have a “right” to see a contest with no cheating involved by the INDIVIDUAL TEAMS AND PLAYERS. Players might take steroids, teams might secretly tape practices— but the fans won’t get a refund if they do.

That’s a very different thing than the NFL implying they have a “right to predetermine outcomes.”

That court case in no way implies the NFL is fixed, for goodness sakes.

BTW, in this grand conspiracy theory— who is doing the predetermining? Goodell? A secret cabal of owners? Seriously— WHO is creating the conspiracy? And how-specifically- are they doing it? Is it just paying off the refs?

I seriously do not understand a plausible explanation for how the NFL could “steer” outcomes even if “they” wanted to. Each individual owner would want their own team to get the favorable treatment.

 

[dang]

I am a biased Rams fan and would have liked a better spot on Hekker's run but the real problem was the 3 and out series that preceded that play. If the Rams were able to stick it in the end zone for a TD after the fumble - the 2nd quarter would have had a completely different outcome. That series seemed chaotic and poorly executed. I think McVay wasn't satisfied with the outcome and wanted another chance to stick it in - and it didn't work out.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

The NFL is “fixed”. Lol. You guys do realize that the “NFL” is not it’s own living breathing entity-right? It’s comprised of 32 individuals who have spent hundreds of millions if not over a billion dollars to own a team. Not to mention the millions spent on coaching, scouting, marketing, etc.

So please spare me the BS that 32 individuals with the wealth and egos they have are going to be alright with a select few teams getting “preferential “ treatment based on some phony narrative. Seriously? You think these guys are ok losing fans, millions of dollars and market share so certain teams do well at their expense? Think about how silly that sounds.

The last time I looked they were making money hand over fist on TV contracts. No owners are losing money. Owning a professional team is a business decision. At the very least an owner can sell and make an enormous profit since the value of NFL franchises go up every year. Fixing certain games is how they can guarantee that it they continue to increase in value. It isn't 32 individuals. It is a conglomerate.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

The undefeated team coming back from 35-14 down and beats King Brees is a much bigger story and makes next week National game vs Seattle even bigger.
That's the bigger point, the ratings are already in for the Rams/Saints game regardless of who wins. Its viewership of next weeks games at risk based on the outcome.
Bloom is off the rose now that there are no unbeatens

Again, they are setting it up for the playoffs, and giving the fans what they want. Everyone loves Brees. Everyone I know outside of Ram fans still disrespect the Rams as. 10+ year losers. The media predominantly still gives the Rams the old, " They are good but what have they really accomplished" tag. The Rams proving ground will be in the playoffs, not in game nine. If they had defeated the Saints and they meet in the playoffs it wouldn't be as big of a story.

Does the league require stories for every game, playoff, or Superbowl? No. But if they can work an angle to build up a team they will. I said from the start that Kroenke taking over, moving the team back to L.A. and building his own stadium, would be rewarded. The question is when? I think if it happens the same year the Rams move to Inglewood it will be too obvious. It has to happen before that, with a deep attention grabbing playoff run or a Superbowl. NFL wants that place packed when it opens and for several years to follow. They need to grab the L.A. market. By the looks of the Green Bay game it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Mackeyser]

To me, the NFL is simply acknowledging that the fans don’t have a “right” to see a contest with no cheating involved by the INDIVIDUAL TEAMS AND PLAYERS. Players might take steroids, teams might secretly tape practices— but the fans won’t get a refund if they do.

That’s a very different thing than the NFL implying they have a “right to predetermine outcomes.”

That court case in no way implies the NFL is fixed, for goodness sakes.

BTW, in this grand conspiracy theory— who is doing the predetermining? Goodell? A secret cabal of owners? Seriously— WHO is creating the conspiracy? And how-specifically- are they doing it? Is it just paying off the refs?

I seriously do not understand a plausible explanation for how the NFL could “steer” outcomes even if “they” wanted to. Each individual owner would want their own team to get the favorable treatment.

This has been gone over to death and I really don't fell like rehashing it again. A simple google search or clicking on the link, i think in this thread would do it.

But briefly,

1) for the NFL to specifically make the distinction that they are sports entertainment which is a LEGAL term specifically set aside for entertainment that LOOKS like sport, that's HUGE. If they wanted to defend the integrity of the game such that it was a contest even with the anti-trust exemptions then they COULD have made your case in court. I think it's telling that rather than saying, "individual incidents of cheating by New England Patriot employees do not constitute fraud on the part of the New England Patriots". Granted, such a step might put someone like Brady or Belichick in legal harm, but the NFL did not try to make that case or anything like it.

They chose to make the case that the NFL is ONE entity and it is in the business of sports entertainment and that all you are guaranteed with a ticket is a "seat at the show". What is conspicuously absent is any right to a fair contest. They went out of their way to make the legal argument that the NFL is one entity (which synergizes with their anti-trust exemption) and that all a fan is entitled to is "entertainment".

2) It only requires a few refs and a few calls to steer a narrative. The Patriots got a TON of help in 01, but in most instances, it may only take one call.

Honestly, when it matters enough to me to make a video or put together a really long report, I'll have already stopped watching. I'm firmly convinced that the NFL focuses on a narrative, but they have to remain flexible because a rash of injuries can make any plan not viable.

That said, just look at the Super Bowls pre and post 9/11. Before, the average margin of victory was 16pts. After, less than 9. Before, the NFL would routinely have to refund 4th quarter advertisers because of viewership going down. Now, the prime commercial spots are in the 4th quarter. Now, why would the NFL set themselves up to potentially have to refund a hundred million dollars or more during a blowout unless they already knew that the game was going to be close in the 4th quarter?

Is it fixed and scripted like WWE? No. Personally, I've never stated that which is why you'll hear critics refer to it as a "narrative" rather than scripting games. Often, they have to do nothing because it turns out like they want.

I really don't care what anyone believes. I see patterns. It's what made me the engineer I was and governs how I function.

I'd stop watching if it was scripted which it clearly is not. I will stop watching if this "narrative" business gets any worse.

And I'll say it again, the current narrative is that Brees "deserves" another ring and the NFL is still helping the Patriots and so that's the Super Bowl. Will the NFL have to help them? Who knows? But I'd be SHOCKED if any other teams were in the Super Bowl.

Most games have no or little interference, but if the NFL is going to continue to establish and focus on a narrative, then what we're watching is chaotic storytelling like those "pick your adventure" books. For the most part, the sport of football will still be what it is, but it will still be upsetting that a great season can amount to little or nothing.

Pretty sure that the idea was for Brees to have last year, but that fluke play at the end of the Minnesota game wasn't something that they could remove as the fluke part happened so late that a holding or other penalty would have been seen. So they switched to Philly with their narrative. It's not like they don't have a Plan B.

This is part of why I'm celebrating our season NOW. I have almost no faith that the Rams see the Super Bowl even as I hope for it.

I'd love to be wrong, but when I set my sights on something, that's kinda rare.

 

[Mackeyser]

Again, they are setting it up for the playoffs, and giving the fans what they want. Everyone loves Brees. Everyone I know outside of Ram fans still disrespect the Rams as. 10+ year losers. The media predominantly still gives the Rams the old, " They are good but what have they really accomplished" tag. The Rams proving ground will be in the playoffs, not in game nine. If they had defeated the Saints and they meet in the playoffs it wouldn't be as big of a story.

Does the league require stories for every game, playoff, or Superbowl? No. But if they can work an angle to build up a team they will. I said from the start that Kroenke taking over, moving the team back to L.A. and building his own stadium, would be rewarded. The question is when? I think if it happens the same year the Rams move to Inglewood it will be too obvious. It has to happen before that, with a deep attention grabbing playoff run or a Superbowl. NFL wants that place packed when it opens and for several years to follow. They need to grab the L.A. market. By the looks of the Green Bay game it hasn't happened yet.

I'm thinking year 2 in the new stadium.

But that's the cynical pattern watcher.

The fan (who's right FAR less often than the cynical pattern watcher) wants us to persevere and win it all THIS year, even if it means playing playoff games in that pit that is the Coliseum.

 

[XXXIVwin]

2) It only requires a few refs and a few calls to steer a narrative.

Is it fixed and scripted like WWE? No.

I'd stop watching if it was scripted which it clearly is not.

Thanks for the detailed and convincing response, Mac. I don’t have a dog in this fight, I just find it an interesting topic.

I think your point about the NFL legally classifying itself as “entertainment” is indeed valid and yes, potentially concerning.

I wish, though, that you would try to answer my questions— namely WHO exactly is setting the alleged “narrative,” and WHAT exactly are they doing to further this alleged narrative?

Let me put it this way— if the referees were collectively “reminded” on numerous occasions that close games are better than blowouts— well, that seems plausible. But pressuring refs to favor one team over another (to me) seems less plausible, since there is the risk of a referee refusing the bribe. Worse still, a tainted ref could become (ahem, ha ha) a whistleblower.

The incentive to push close games is obvious. The incentive to have compelling stories is obvious. What’s far less clear to me is WHO would establish the desired storyline and HOW they would accomplish pursuing it.

Nobody thinks coaches are pressured to forfeit games, right? Nobody thinks players are pressured to make mistakes on purpose, right? So the entire theory rests on corruptly influencing (multiple) referees— right??

Nobody who believes in this “narrative” theory seems willing or able to answer this question.

 

[-X-]

Illuminati.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I'm thinking year 2 in the new stadium.

But that's the cynical pattern watcher.

The fan (who's right FAR less often than the cynical pattern watcher) wants us to persevere and win it all THIS year, even if it means playing playoff games in that pit that is the Coliseum.

I agree about playoff games not being so great in the Coliseum. But how urgently does the NFL want that market? Grab it while it's fresh and new. Winning big now would help to sell out the stadium before it's finished. Being good now keeps the Rams to L.A.exciting.


I do believe that if the roster sucked or the offense like when Fisher was the coach that the league could only do so much.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Think about this too. The NFL wanted the massive L.A. market and branding. The colosseum wouldn't do and traffic in L.A. is atrocious. How fortuitous that one of the biggest real estate dealers and developers in the country just so happens to be lined up to buy the Rams when Georgia passes. I don't think that was an accident. Stan not only had capitol to finance the project he had the experience, brains, and connections to make it all work.

Big business leaves nothing to chance.

 

[jacktheripper85]

Again, they are setting it up for the playoffs, and giving the fans what they want. Everyone loves Brees. Everyone I know outside of Ram fans still disrespect the Rams as. 10+ year losers. The media predominantly still gives the Rams the old, " They are good but what have they really accomplished" tag. The Rams proving ground will be in the playoffs, not in game nine. If they had defeated the Saints and they meet in the playoffs it wouldn't be as big of a story.

Does the league require stories for every game, playoff, or Superbowl? No. But if they can work an angle to build up a team they will. I said from the start that Kroenke taking over, moving the team back to L.A. and building his own stadium, would be rewarded. The question is when? I think if it happens the same year the Rams move to Inglewood it will be too obvious. It has to happen before that, with a deep attention grabbing playoff run or a Superbowl. NFL wants that place packed when it opens and for several years to follow. They need to grab the L.A. market. By the looks of the Green Bay game it hasn't happened yet.

Everyone loves Drew Brees? Really? How about “America’s Team” the Dallas Cowboys. It’s a fact that when the Cowboys (whether we like it or not) generate the highest ratings of any team when they are doing well. So....what’s your narrative for them not being in the Super Bowl in like 20 years and hardly being in the playoffs?

 

[LesBaker]

The last time I looked they were making money hand over fist on TV contracts. No owners are losing money. Owning a professional team is a business decision. At the very least an owner can sell and make an enormous profit since the value of NFL franchises go up every year. Fixing certain games is how they can guarantee that it they continue to increase in value. It isn't 32 individuals. It is a conglomerate.

You offer not a single shred of evidence, and if this was even close to the truth at some point it would leak.

And again, if it's fixed why do you waste your time watching it?

Everyone loves Brees

Well according to your theory the Saints were given a SB because of Katrina, yet those two events were FIVE YEARS apart.

This is called creating conspiracy where there is none.

Think about this too. The NFL wanted the massive L.A. market and branding. The colosseum wouldn't do and traffic in L.A. is atrocious. How fortuitous that one of the biggest real estate dealers and developers in the country just so happens to be lined up to buy the Rams when Georgia passes. I don't think that was an accident. Stan not only had capitol to finance the project he had the experience, brains, and connections to make it all work.

The LA market was empty for 21 years, and for a bunch of good reasons.

So according to you..........the NFL planned, over two decades ago, to allow Kroenke to buy part of the Rams from Georgia figuring on her demise her children would sell it to Kroenke and he would move the team back.

You're assumption that the NFL planned this, and with the guy who was in large part responsible for the Rams LEAVING the market is just silly.

Not a single layer of this makes even the slightest sense. You're just making things up off the top of your head and presenting them as facts or probabilities when they aren't anything remotely close to that.

This just ruins threads.

 

[den-the-coach]

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

You offer not a single shred of evidence, and if this was even close to the truth at some point it would leak.

And again, if it's fixed why do you waste your time watching it?



Well according to your theory the Saints were given a SB because of Katrina, yet those two events were FIVE YEARS apart.

This is called creating conspiracy where there is none.



The LA market was empty for 21 years, and for a bunch of good reasons.

So according to you..........the NFL planned, over two decades ago, to allow Kroenke to buy part of the Rams from Georgia figuring on her demise her children would sell it to Kroenke and he would move the team back.

You're assumption that the NFL planned this, and with the guy who was in large part responsible for the Rams LEAVING the market is just silly.

Not a single layer of this makes even the slightest sense. You're just making things up off the top of your head and presenting them as facts or probabilities when they aren't anything remotely close to that.

This just ruins threads.

They are all probabilities. If Your neighbor has sex with your wife, and nobody tells you, does that mean it never happened?

And I explained the Katrina thing already. The story was that the city is rising from the ashes. The Saints are an inspiration in that process and a symbol of hope and rebuilding.

And why do I watch. It’s kind of like watching a show that you’ve been watching for many years. Even when the writing gets redundant and the show gets predictable, you still watch hoping for some of the fun and excitement that got you hooked to begin with. If the NFL continues to push their manipulation they will eventually lose me as a fan.

And I’m hardly ruining this thread. Don’t read my contributions to it and you be fine. I have had a few likes on my remarks so some appreciated it.

Maybe you do not want to believe the manipulations. Kind of like finding out that your favorite player is actually a jerk.

I don’t want it to be like this either. I don’t think the league should ever do anything to even raise a question as to the leagues standing for fair play and honesty. I used to believe that it was all fair play. When Goodell burned the tapes and didn’t kick Belichick out of the NFL forever, I started to see the business side of things and started to question what was real. I’ve only found more and more occurrences since then to make me belief that we are being duped.

 

[dieterbrock]

Again, they are setting it up for the playoffs, and giving the fans what they want. Everyone loves Brees. Everyone I know outside of Ram fans still disrespect the Rams as. 10+ year losers. The media predominantly still gives the Rams the old, " They are good but what have they really accomplished" tag. The Rams proving ground will be in the playoffs, not in game nine. If they had defeated the Saints and they meet in the playoffs it wouldn't be as big of a story.

Does the league require stories for every game, playoff, or Superbowl? No. But if they can work an angle to build up a team they will. I said from the start that Kroenke taking over, moving the team back to L.A. and building his own stadium, would be rewarded. The question is when? I think if it happens the same year the Rams move to Inglewood it will be too obvious. It has to happen before that, with a deep attention grabbing playoff run or a Superbowl. NFL wants that place packed when it opens and for several years to follow. They need to grab the L.A. market. By the looks of the Green Bay game it hasn't happened yet.

Well if they were following the script of the WWE, the Saints in your scenario would be the face (good guy) and the Rams would be the heel. (Bad guy). And the face always loses to the heel until they meet for the championship. So then Brees should have lost, so he could win in the playoffs...

 

[JonRam99]

Illuminati.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kCsGeQerq4

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Everyone loves Drew Brees? Really? How about “America’s Team” the Dallas Cowboys. It’s a fact that when the Cowboys (whether we like it or not) generate the highest ratings of any team when they are doing well. So....what’s your narrative for them not being in the Super Bowl in like 20 years and hardly being in the playoffs?

The NFL is pushing it far enough. They won’t put a fair to middllen team in the Super Bowl. They did it with the Giants years ago, but I doubt they go that route again. That was a you already David and Goliath story too. The juggernaut Patriots defeated by a team that barely made the playoffs at 9-7.

Teams still have to play. And they have to be good. If not they don’t get anywhere. But once a team is good enough, then it’s fair game. The league will pick a narrative to sell to the fans if they think there is reason.

I’ve also said that they don’t do it every year. If the Seahawks at their peak, played the Patriots a few years ago, then there was no need to fix an outcome. People would watch. But If Jacksonville played Atlanta in the Super Bowl you can bet there would be a bunch of trumping up of the game to build interest. Thing is the league would try to stop that matchup from happening because it’s not a big draw. So they would try to steer the results to have a more desirable opponent(s). It’s all about the money. The parity thing is just a cover up. They don’t want the equivalent of a Milwaukee Brewers vs Tampa Bay Rays World Series for their premier game to end the season.

 

[GoodBadUgly]

...
If Your neighbor has sex with your wife, and nobody tells you, does that mean it never happened?
...

First question I'd ask him is "How did you get her to do that?"

 

[LesBaker]

They are all probabilities.

Maybe you do not want to believe the manipulations.

Not one single thing you have mentioned is anything close to probable, in fact it's truly very nearly impossible to have this conspiracy you and others are claiming.

There is nothing to "believe", there is no evidence, and there is no manipulation.

People are just making this stuff up, plain and simple.

And I explained the Katrina thing already. The story was that the city is rising from the ashes. The Saints are an inspiration in that process and a symbol of hope and rebuilding.

Then why did the Saints go 3-13 the season after Katrina hit? Why did they "make them wait" five years before "giving them a Super Bowl". It's an outrageous claim with nothing to back it up except you want it to be true.

The city was recovered within a couple of years. There was no "rising from the ashes". I have in-laws that live there some of whom had their life drastically altered. The rebuild was completed while they Saints were going 10-6, 7-9 then 8-8. There is no rising from the ashes 5 years later, that's just a weird thing to claim.

 

[LesBaker]

They are all probabilities.

Maybe you do not want to believe the manipulations.

Not one single thing you have mentioned is anything close to probable, in fact it's truly very nearly impossible to have this conspiracy you and others are claiming.

There is nothing to "believe", there is no evidence, and there is no manipulation.

People are just making this stuff up, plain and simple.

And I explained the Katrina thing already. The story was that the city is rising from the ashes. The Saints are an inspiration in that process and a symbol of hope and rebuilding.

Then why did the Saints go 3-13 the season after Katrina hit? Why did they "make them wait" five years before "giving them a Super Bowl". It's an outrageous claim with nothing to back it up except you want it to be true.

The city was recovered within a couple of years. There was no "rising from the ashes". I have in-laws that live there some of whom had their life drastically altered. The rebuild was completed while they Saints were going 10-6, 7-9 then 8-8. There is no rising from the ashes 5 years later, that's just a weird thing to claim.