Gregg Williams is Done in the NFL (Audio)

[DR RAM]

Yeah, I think that is where the line is. I know I've been told to " Tear his head off! Rip his limbs off!" but those are statements of passion to get a team fired up, to get a team to give their all. But to say, "aim at that bad leg and see if we can rip an ACL" could be construed as something totally different. Intent is key here and I hope this doesn't lead to coaches having to be PC in the locker room.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking... All the the head crap, I don't think he literally meant hit the head, I think he was saying to mess with his mind, make him scared.. But I could be wrong there..

I didn't think it was bad until he mentioned the concussion and targeting an ACL... That's where he crosses the line in my opinion, telling them to be tough and knock the shit out of guys doesn't bother me. Telling them "Oh he had a concussion go hit his head, and he has an ACL probably, target that." is what bothers me and crosses the line in my book.

If he literally meant to target the head and try to give a concussion, then I don't like that either, but if he was saying target the head as in make them scared, I was told that in football and hockey... Make them think twice about coming into your zone... But by giving them a big hit, not a dirty hit trying to injure them.

That's where I fall on it too. All the initial take out the head stuff seemed to be saying, "control the head and you control the player". When he went into the ACL and concussion stuff, he crossed a line I frankly don't see him coming back across. With the audio going public, I just can't see the NFL's PR machine letting him back in.

Although I do still believe that Williams is not alone in this. Someone has to take the fall and Williams made himself an easy target with his arrogance.

Agreed.

 

[Ram Quixote]

That's where I fall on it too. All the initial take out the head stuff seemed to be saying, "control the head and you control the player". When he went into the ACL and concussion stuff, he crossed a line I frankly don't see him coming back across. With the audio going public, I just can't see the NFL's PR machine letting him back in.

Although I do still believe that Williams is not alone in this. Someone has to take the fall and Williams made himself an easy target with his arrogance.

Im sentiment exactly

@Selassie: I think there were always rumors that the bounty system use in NOLA was more than a simple pay for performance, but Im not sure the NFL ever had solid evidence. All the players represented it as a pay for performance scheme and the staff wasnt going to comment either way. This is it.

This was from January, right? I'm thinking this was the smoking gun and when the NFL received this, the whole investigation ramped up.

I think the release of this was intentional, to silence the last few apologists for the Saints' bounty system. Until now, we wondered what the NFL had on Williams to get him to capitulate so suddenly. This IS it. The rest of the dominoes fell accordingly.

 

[libertadrocks]

This was from January, right? I'm thinking this was the smoking gun and when the NFL received this, the whole investigation ramped up.

I think the release of this was intentional, to silence the last few apologists for the Saints' bounty system. Until now, we wondered what the NFL had on Williams to get him to capitulate so suddenly. This IS it. The rest of the dominoes fell accordingly.

You may be correct. The NFL wouldnt comment as to if they had this audio prior to today or not. My understanding is that this film maker unilaterally decide to come forward with what he had recoded.

 

[Angry Ram]

I find that audio very disturbing. It's one thing to try and make plays, but "kill the head?" What happened to that fraternity that the players had? Did the players/coaches during games when a major injury occured thought to themeselves "yes we killed him!"?

 

[-X-]

Florio on the audio

[flv]http://msnbc.vo.llnwd.net/e1/video/flash/s_nbc_nfl_pftliveflorioappeals_120405.flv[/flv]

 

[bluecoconuts]

I find that audio very disturbing. It's one thing to try and make plays, but "kill the head?" What happened to that fraternity that the players had? Did the players/coaches during games when a major injury occured thought to themeselves "yes we killed him!"?

Kill the head is more talking about the psychological aspect of the game. Scare them, make them hear footsteps, etc. That's nothing new in the game, that part of the audio (in my opinion) isn't really anything, the disturbing part to me was when they mention the ACL and concussions.

 

[-X-]

This was from January, right? I'm thinking this was the smoking gun and when the NFL received this, the whole investigation ramped up.

I think the release of this was intentional, to silence the last few apologists for the Saints' bounty system. Until now, we wondered what the NFL had on Williams to get him to capitulate so suddenly. This IS it. The rest of the dominoes fell accordingly.

I don't think so, Q.

@MikeSilver Sean gave me access to the audio. The NFL had no idea it existed. I wrote a story and Sean posted audio on his website. No smoke, no mirrors

 

[Stranger]

I find that audio very disturbing. It's one thing to try and make plays, but "kill the head?" What happened to that fraternity that the players had? Did the players/coaches during games when a major injury occured thought to themeselves "yes we killed him!"?

Kill the head is more talking about the psychological aspect of the game. Scare them, make them hear footsteps, etc. That's nothing new in the game, that part of the audio (in my opinion) isn't really anything, the disturbing part to me was when they mention the ACL and concussions.

That was my interpretation as well. I don't believe Gregg meant to be literal here, as some seem to be saying.

All in all, I think had many here heard that audio BEFORE this PR explosion, then there would have been very different interpretations. When I hear the audio, I hear a man who is trying to get his troops ready for war, and who is willing to say just about anything to motivate. I'm not one who condones this style, however.

I don't agree with Florio's take, by the way. But at least he points out that the timing of the release of this audio is on the same day that the Saints are meeting with Goodell - this couldn't have been accidental.

 

[Ram Quixote]

I find that audio very disturbing. It's one thing to try and make plays, but "kill the head?" What happened to that fraternity that the players had? Did the players/coaches during games when a major injury occured thought to themeselves "yes we killed him!"?

Kill the head is more talking about the psychological aspect of the game. Scare them, make them hear footsteps, etc. That's nothing new in the game, that part of the audio (in my opinion) isn't really anything, the disturbing part to me was when they mention the ACL and concussions.

That was my interpretation as well. I don't believe Gregg meant to be literal here, as some seem to be saying.

All in all, I think had many here heard that audio BEFORE this PR explosion, then there would have been very different interpretations. When I hear the audio, I hear a man who is trying to get his troops ready for war, and who is willing to say just about anything to motivate. I'm not one who condones this style, however.

I don't agree with Florio's take, by the way. But at least he points out that the timing of the release of this audio is on the same day that the Saints are meeting with Goodell - this couldn't have been accidental.

If it's not accidental, how convenient for the NFL, to have this not solicited audio come out, that the NFL didn't know existed.

Sorry. It's near impossible for me to believe much that the NFL machine puts out, not since SB36, not since Spygate.

And yet, why wouldn't they admit they had heard this before? Because of the timing of the release.

You gotta admit, this audio as smoking gun makes a whole lot more sense than some player (Shockey) breaking ranks to squeal on his former team.

 

[-X-]

Antonio Pierce's take...

[espn]7782557[/espn]

 

[Anonymous]

I find that audio very disturbing. It's one thing to try and make plays, but "kill the head?" What happened to that fraternity that the players had? Did the players/coaches during games when a major injury occured thought to themeselves "yes we killed him!"?

Kill the head is more talking about the psychological aspect of the game. Scare them, make them hear footsteps, etc. That's nothing new in the game, that part of the audio (in my opinion) isn't really anything, the disturbing part to me was when they mention the ACL and concussions.

That was my interpretation as well. I don't believe Gregg meant to be literal here, as some seem to be saying.

All in all, I think had many here heard that audio BEFORE this PR explosion, then there would have been very different interpretations. When I hear the audio, I hear a man who is trying to get his troops ready for war, and who is willing to say just about anything to motivate. I'm not one who condones this style, however.

I don't agree with Florio's take, by the way. But at least he points out that the timing of the release of this audio is on the same day that the Saints are meeting with Goodell - this couldn't have been accidental.

If it's not accidental, how convenient for the NFL, to have this not solicited audio come out, that the NFL didn't know existed.

Sorry. It's near impossible for me to believe much that the NFL machine puts out, not since SB36, not since Spygate.

And yet, why wouldn't they admit they had heard this before? Because of the timing of the release.

You gotta admit, this audio as smoking gun makes a whole lot more sense than some player (Shockey) breaking ranks to squeal on his former team.

Why does the NFL need a "convenient" thing like this?

There was no serious questioning of what they did.

And besides, to indulge conspiracy theories... EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE that they colluded, so what. Why would we care. The truth is the truth and why would that be suppressed. I mean Greg W was stupid enough to pay out bounties with a documentary film guy's camera running...why would I ever care about the motives for releasing it?

Honestly, like I said, going after the messanger is just kind of ineffectual.

 

[Ram Quixote]

I find that audio very disturbing. It's one thing to try and make plays, but "kill the head?" What happened to that fraternity that the players had? Did the players/coaches during games when a major injury occured thought to themeselves "yes we killed him!"?

Kill the head is more talking about the psychological aspect of the game. Scare them, make them hear footsteps, etc. That's nothing new in the game, that part of the audio (in my opinion) isn't really anything, the disturbing part to me was when they mention the ACL and concussions.

That was my interpretation as well. I don't believe Gregg meant to be literal here, as some seem to be saying.

All in all, I think had many here heard that audio BEFORE this PR explosion, then there would have been very different interpretations. When I hear the audio, I hear a man who is trying to get his troops ready for war, and who is willing to say just about anything to motivate. I'm not one who condones this style, however.

I don't agree with Florio's take, by the way. But at least he points out that the timing of the release of this audio is on the same day that the Saints are meeting with Goodell - this couldn't have been accidental.

If it's not accidental, how convenient for the NFL, to have this not solicited audio come out, that the NFL didn't know existed.

Sorry. It's near impossible for me to believe much that the NFL machine puts out, not since SB36, not since Spygate.

And yet, why wouldn't they admit they had heard this before? Because of the timing of the release.

You gotta admit, this audio as smoking gun makes a whole lot more sense than some player (Shockey) breaking ranks to squeal on his former team.

Why does the NFL need a "convenient" thing like this?

There was no serious questioning of what they did.

And besides, to indulge conspiracy theories... EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE that they colluded, so what. Why would we care. The truth is the truth and why would that be suppressed. I mean Greg W was stupid enough to pay out bounties with a documentary film guy's camera running...why would I ever care about the motives for releasing it?

Honestly, like I said, going after the messanger is just kind of ineffectual.

I don't have a problem with the messenger. I just don't believe yesterday was the first time the NFL heard that audio. That's my target; just take a look at my sig. I've been tilting at the NFL for 10+ years now, for various issues. This business is just the latest to tweak my particular radar.

You let me worry about my effectiveness. I can take what you dish out, just don't beat it to death.

 

[Anonymous]

I find that audio very disturbing. It's one thing to try and make plays, but "kill the head?" What happened to that fraternity that the players had? Did the players/coaches during games when a major injury occured thought to themeselves "yes we killed him!"?

Kill the head is more talking about the psychological aspect of the game. Scare them, make them hear footsteps, etc. That's nothing new in the game, that part of the audio (in my opinion) isn't really anything, the disturbing part to me was when they mention the ACL and concussions.

That was my interpretation as well. I don't believe Gregg meant to be literal here, as some seem to be saying.

All in all, I think had many here heard that audio BEFORE this PR explosion, then there would have been very different interpretations. When I hear the audio, I hear a man who is trying to get his troops ready for war, and who is willing to say just about anything to motivate. I'm not one who condones this style, however.

I don't agree with Florio's take, by the way. But at least he points out that the timing of the release of this audio is on the same day that the Saints are meeting with Goodell - this couldn't have been accidental.

If it's not accidental, how convenient for the NFL, to have this not solicited audio come out, that the NFL didn't know existed.

Sorry. It's near impossible for me to believe much that the NFL machine puts out, not since SB36, not since Spygate.

And yet, why wouldn't they admit they had heard this before? Because of the timing of the release.

You gotta admit, this audio as smoking gun makes a whole lot more sense than some player (Shockey) breaking ranks to squeal on his former team.

Why does the NFL need a "convenient" thing like this?

There was no serious questioning of what they did.

And besides, to indulge conspiracy theories... EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE that they colluded, so what. Why would we care. The truth is the truth and why would that be suppressed. I mean Greg W was stupid enough to pay out bounties with a documentary film guy's camera running...why would I ever care about the motives for releasing it?

Honestly, like I said, going after the messanger is just kind of ineffectual.

I don't have a problem with the messenger. I just don't believe yesterday was the first time the NFL heard that audio. That's my target; just take a look at my sig. I've been tilting at the NFL for 10+ years now, for various issues. This business is just the latest to tweak my particular radar.

You let me worry about my effectiveness. I can take what you dish out, just don't beat it to death.

But see...the NFL has nothing to gain from this. I mean they weren't in any PR difficulty over this issue and were not in a position where they needed to defend or justify their actions.

 

[Ram Quixote]

But see...the NFL has nothing to gain from this. I mean they weren't in any PR difficulty over this issue and were not in a position where they needed to defend or justify their actions.

Give it a rest. There may come a time when I'll back off on my opinion, but we're not there yet.

And anyone else reading this thread knows precisely where you stand. :mrgreen:

 

[Stranger]

Antonio Pierce's take...

[espn]7782557[/espn]

Exactly!

 

[-X-]

But see...the NFL has nothing to gain from this. I mean they weren't in any PR difficulty over this issue and were not in a position where they needed to defend or justify their actions.

Give it a rest. There may come a time when I'll back off on my opinion, but we're not there yet.

And anyone else reading this thread knows precisely where you stand. :mrgreen:

. . . and this is the part where "agree to disagree" comes into play.

.

 

[libertadrocks]

Antonio Pierce's take...

[espn]7782557[/espn]

Exactly!

What Pierce says is very true.

The defensive players know who is hurt and where they are hurt. That's in the back of their mind when they're on the field.

People respond to incentives. Where Williams crossed the line was incentivising inflicting injury of the opponent. Without the bounties, players have little incentive to cause injury. They want to win. Their primary focus is bring down the opponent. With the bounties, the defensive player may change his tackle trajectory just enough to hit the players weakness rather than using fundamentally sound technique.

Also, Williams telling players to twist ankles and continue to make contact to opponents heads after the play is over is dirty.

I dont have a problem with pay for performance, although the NFL does. That's basically what helmet stickers are in college. I do however have a major problem with a coach, who is not out there sacrificing his body, putting money on the table, as an incentive, to potentially end a guys career.

Lets pose a hypothetical situation. We are all Texans fans and instead of playing the 49ers they were playing the Texans. During the game Andre Johnson gets tackled low and blows out his knee ending his career. If you found out, after the fact, the player who made that tackle was paid for it, how would you feel? Do you think the man who put the money on the table should ever be allowed the privilege to be apart of the NFL ever again?

 

[RamFan503]

Lets pose a hypothetical situation. We are all Texans fans and instead of playing the 49ers they were playing the Texans. During the game Andre Johnson gets tackled low and blows out his knee ending his career. If you found out, after the fact, the player who made that tackle was paid for it, how would you feel? Do you think the man who put the money on the table should ever be allowed the privilege to be apart of the NFL ever again?

No. And I'd take it one step further. He should be prosecuted.

 

[Anonymous]

What Pierce says is very true.

The defensive players know who is hurt and where they are hurt. That's in the back of their mind when they're on the field.

People respond to incentives.

And people like to just take things if they see them too so we have laws against stealing.

Anyway, Pierce is on the minority side of this. So far recently I have heard Aeneas Williams, Adam Archuletta, D'Marco Farr, Rick Venturi, among others say that they never saw the stuff Greg Wms was advocating (except Archuletta who only saw it in Washington on a Greg Williams team). That includes deliberately targetting injuries and coaches paying out bounties. They all said it crossed the line and was wrong.

And I read posts like this:

RamUK: listening to Sirius radio. . . .Tim Ryan, Jim Miller, Ross Tucker, Rich Gannon, Derrick Brooks and Carl Banks have all said that it never happened like this when they were playing.

More players are condemning this than not. And we all know the difference.

We all applaud the great Toby Wright hit on Tiki Barber. But not a single soul here saw Rodney Harrison throw himself at Trent Green's knee (after the ball was thrown no less) and then said "yeah that's just football, everyone does that."

 

[RamFan503]

But not a single soul saw Rodney Harrison throw himself at Trent Green's knee (after the ball was thrown no less) and then said "yeah that's just football, everyone does that."

I dunno... did you ask Kurt? :sly:

I kid... I kid...