Goff Trade Up

[Rmfnlt]

In an alternate universe Goff could have been a promising qb in a bad offense.

Well, that alternate universe was just last year. Bad coaching, bad Oline, bad receivers... we all saw what happened.

So, I tend to disagree with this...

I think that in any case Goff was going to be clearly better in multiple ways this year as a result of all the work he put in. It is easy to attribute his development to the situation around him, but imo he was highly motivated on his own to improve and would have done so irrespective of circumstances.

Had nothing changed from last year... no coaching changes, in particular, no amount of hard work was ever going to make him successful.

Yes, you can "out work" competition in many cases (business, individual sports) but out working your competition at the same position in football is no assurance of team success. To me, everyone's got to do their part and it starts with the coaches.

 

[dieterbrock]

See my post (#289) above.

They all "stir the drink"... the coaches, the Oline, the QB and the receivers.

One of them stinks, they all suffer. And, on a larger scale - even if all of them are in synch but the defense stinks, the team suffers. And, to a somewhat lesser extent, special teams. Any of those units can win a game or lose a game... it takes all the players to perform at a high level to be consistently successful.

This over-reliance on one position seems short-sighted to me. But what do I know? I still think it's a team sport.

I'd say the OLine is playing in a dream scenario in that they are receiving excellent coaching and each of them is performing at a high level. One bad Olineman can ruin the whole thing. Ask DAL about that.

I guess you could say the entire team is playing in a dream scenario.

Well, agree to disagree.
They don't all stir the drink because there is only 1 ball, and only 1 player controls where it goes.
This "debate" or whatever you want to call it stems from an understanding where Memphis heaps heavy praise on 3 factors, oline, WR and scheme/playcalling, and the QB is the beneficiary of it. Goff IMO deserves every bit of praise the other facets got.

 

[OldSchool]

They must have forgotten all those other average QBs who did this too.


View: https://mobile.twitter.com/NFLResearch/status/931259942589186048

 

[Rmfnlt]

They don't all stir the drink because there is only 1 ball, and only 1 player controls where it goes.

And when your Oline sucks and "the only 1 player [who] controls where it goes" is running for his life or is flat on his back, you start to understand that - when that happens - the "1 player [who] controls where it goes" actually has little to no control on where it goes.

You infer that the QB lives in a vacuum and can overcome deficient coaching, deficient Oline play, deficient ground games and deficient receivers because he touches the ball every play. Yeah, for years now, our QB touched the ball, then got sacked. How does "control where it goes" work then?

Answer: It doesn't.

The 1 player who controls where it goes is reliant on getting some time to throw the ball and having receivers who can get separation and good play calling. The 1 player who controls where it goes on hand-offs relies on the Oline to open up holes so the ground game is productive (and accents the passing game).

1 player never wins games.

Goff IMO deserves every bit of praise the other facets got.

Yes, he does... an equal amount of praise as the coaches, the Oline, RBs, TEs and WRs. Any one of them screws up a play and chances are, it doesn't work.... even if the QB touched the ball.

 

[dieterbrock]

ou infer that the QB lives in a vacuum and can overcome deficient coaching, deficient Oline play, deficient ground games and deficient receivers because he touches the ball every play

Where the heck did I say that??
I suggest you read the thread.
You’re making an argument that doesn’t exist.
They all deserve credit and praise. Including the qb.
Period

 

[1maGoh]

Maybe if you can explain the contradictions it might help.

But, no I don't think the QB makes the offense. He's a very important part, but he isn't the offense as he can't do anything without help. And his results are predicated on that help and what his opponents do or not do.

Wouldn't that go for every player in every part of the game? None of them can perform without the others.

And operations on the premise that it does, wouldn't that make Goff just as important a piece of their success as they are of his? He's just one of eleven, everyone else is just one of eleven.

It makes no more sense to say that we can't infer from the season that he is actually good because of the players, coaches, and schemes around him, and not say that we can't infer any other individual part is actually good because of the players, coaches, and schemes around it (him).

Not that you've said that. Obviously your statements can only be interpreted with the specific word order and word choice that you have designated. They cannot be restated, inferred from, or logically extrapolated from. Which is actually a restatement and logical extrapolation of what you've said, so I guess that's wrong too.

 

[A.J. Hicks]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbLLyAj7wWw


I see a leader

 

[PhillyRam]

Well, I have seen starting QBs that were in solid or very good situations that just were not good.... Look at Dieter Brock... (No offense Dieter)

Brock had an all- time RB, talented receivers, great OL, but he was so inaccurate that he couldnt hit a bull's ass with a snow shovel.

So environment does not make all QBs effective.

At the very least I think a fair minded person can say that Goff has done nothing to discourage high expectations at this point. I was not confident I would feel this way back in July.

 

[dieterbrock]

Well, I have seen starting QBs that were in solid or very good situations that just were not good.... Look at Dieter Brock... (No offense Dieter)

Brock had an all- time RB, talented receivers, great OL, but he was so inaccurate that he couldnt hit a bull's ass with a snow shovel.

So environment does not make all QBs effective.

At the very least I think a fair minded person can say that Goff has done nothing to discourage high expectations at this point. I was not confident I would feel this way back in July.

Lol.
Good analogy.
More recent history, look at Deshaun Watson in Houston.

 

[FarNorth]

Well, that alternate universe was just last year. Bad coaching, bad Oline, bad receivers... we all saw what happened.

So, I tend to disagree with this...

Had nothing changed from last year... no coaching changes, in particular, no amount of hard work was ever going to make him successful.

Yes, you can "out work" competition in many cases (business, individual sports) but out working your competition at the same position in football is no assurance of team success. To me, everyone's got to do their part and it starts with the coaches.

With all due respect, my point is that Goff's turnaround has started and continued with Goff himself. Please see his promise in December '16, with "heart and soul", to fix the offense. Goff was a reason McVay wanted to come to LA, and Goff's support helped enable the hire. I didn't mean to suggest that working hard guarantees success, or that Goff is successful because he is "outworking" somebody. Goff is succeeding because he has elite ability, mentally and physically, and the determination to realize it.

Goff would have those qualities no matter who was coach. But we are also extraordinarily fortunate to have Goff and McVay together. This has the potential to be one of the great qb- coach combinations in my opinion.

 

[kurtfaulk]

They must have forgotten all those other average QBs who did this too.


View: https://mobile.twitter.com/NFLResearch/status/931259942589186048

I don't know man. Those numbers look average to me. Plus any old qb could do that in mcvay's offense. Jared has to have a 4 score comeback to prove his not average.

.

 

[kurtfaulk]

.

On a serious note, that is outstanding. To have your name next to those guys in only your second year, no matter the stat, must feel good for him.

.

 

[shaunpinney]

They must have forgotten all those other average QBs who did this too.


View: https://mobile.twitter.com/NFLResearch/status/931259942589186048

That must feel so good for Goff - how cool is that stat!! It must be a confidence booster!!!

 

[Rmfnlt]

Where the heck did I say that??
I suggest you read the thread.
You’re making an argument that doesn’t exist.
They all deserve credit and praise. Including the qb.
Period

I believe he was the X factor that made it work, and I think that's where Goff is today. When he's off, they struggle, when he's on they rock.

They don't all stir the drink because there is only 1 ball, and only 1 player controls where it goes.

Your "suggestions" aside (please stop with the condescending attitude... it borders on attacking the poster), I interpreted your comments as the QB is (my words) "the one" who makes it all work (your words: "stirs the drink")... i.e. (my words again), a player that isn't dependent on the others... as in a vacuum.

Some in this thread (you say) are discounting Goff's contribution... but, IMO, you seem to be elevating him above the other contributors. I say it doesn't work unless are all on point.

If I have all that wrong, I'll just say "my bad" and move on.

And I'm pretty certain we both agree that they all should get equal credit for the success they/we are enjoying... the coaches and all the players. Just validates my comment above.

 

[dieterbrock]

Your "suggestions" aside (please stop with the condescending attitude... it borders on attacking the poster), I interpreted your comments as the QB is (my words) "the one" who makes it all work (your words: "stirs the drink")... i.e. (my words again), a player that isn't dependent on the others... as in a vacuum.

Some in this thread (you say) are discounting Goff's contribution... but, IMO, you seem to be elevating him above the other contributors. I say it doesn't work unless are all on point.

If I have all that wrong, I'll just say "my bad" and move on.

And I'm pretty certain we both agree that they all should get equal credit for the success they/we are enjoying... the coaches and all the players. Just validates my comment above.

Are you quoting The right person? Where am I being condescending?
You’re creating an argument that doesn’t exist.
Goff deserves as much credit as the oline, the wr and the play calling. He’s not a he benefactor, he’s a part of the success.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Reminds me of the Goff is an average QB responses.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Ok guys. Goff deserves as much credit as everyone else on the offense for it's success.

When there is success, everyone deserves equal credit.

And hopefully, when there is failure everyone will now get equal blame even though there are probably pages of posts including many by some of the same posters in this thread that didn't seem to equally distribute blame in the past.

 

[Merlin]

How would Goff be doing right now in an alternate universe where Kroenke gave Fisher one more season?

I think he'd be in an offense that doesn't have as many answers and adjustments built into it for every conceivable thing the QB might see, but he would have it mastered and would be playing good ball, of that I am certain. His stats would look moreso like Brady's early stats under a defensive head coach, where he was a good QB who doesn't get you beat. And I am confident of that because of how hard Jared works plus his high end talent; giving him zero cred on his improvement is not fair to him.

McVay has accelerated his stats but there is zero reason to discount Goff because he's got a good offensive mind running his offense now. We could play that game all day with Montana and Young and many more of even the greats, but why and to what end.