Don't forget about Jamil Demby in Rams' offensive line battle

[Soul Surfer]

I don’t understand how you can say A. Blythe should be the Starting Center ? Makes no sense , because he was the starting RG all last season. Why would you move him. Plus Allen was drafted to be the Starting Center. Look at where he was drafted.

I can understand the thinking.
He was a four-year starter at Center for Iowa, a school known to crank out excellent offensive lineman.
He was a finalist for the Rimington award, given to the best center in college.
He has proven himself, unlike Allen.
He has prototype size for a ZBS Center.
I'm almost positive that Blythe is our Plan B if Allen can't prove himself in Camp.
I think Center is Blythe's best position in the NFL and believe he's going to get a big contract from somebody next year.

 

[So Ram]

I can understand the thinking.
He was a four-year starter at Center for Iowa, a school known to crank out excellent offensive lineman.
He was a finalist for the Rimington award, given to the best center in college.
He has proven himself, unlike Allen.
He has prototype size for a ZBS Center.
I'm almost positive that Blythe is our Plan B if Allen can't prove himself in Camp.
I think Center is Blythe's best position in the NFL and believe he's going to get a big contract from somebody next year.

Well if Blythe gets a nice contract from another team, it only adds to comp picks.

Brian Allen basically the same size & was drafted in the 4th by Kromer. The reason why
Sullivan was let go.If there was doubt about Allen,Sullivan would have been kept. If not at least bring in a veteran to fill a spot instead of a new group of rookies.

Austin Blythe would be the next center up (lol) , who else would it be Demby ?? It’s nice to see Demby getting reps at center, but that Kromer getting him cross trained to see if he can even handle the position.

Blythe filled in nicely for Sullivan in 2017. In 2018 it was all Allen as the next center up !!

 

[oldnotdead]

Blythe is playing out of position at OG. He simply doesn't have the build for it and his limitations shows. It would have been a natural thing for a team to move their starting RG to C if it's a position that he could play. Blythe was evaluated as a C pre-draft because of his build. He lacks the length in terms of height and arm length as well as the weight you want to match up to a 3T DT. He struggles to drive a DT off the LOS and in single pass protection. Most teams want their RG to be primarily a run blocker, i.e. road grader type of olineman. Blythe isn't that kind of player. Just look at the first offensive series of the NO playoff game and you will see an example of what I'm saying on two of their 3 plays.

 

[Soul Surfer]

Like I have mentioned, it wouldn't surprise me much if the starting lineup ended up being;

Whitworth
Noteboom
Blythe
Demby/Evans/Edwards
Havenstein

 

[Merlin]

Blythe is playing out of position at OG. He simply doesn't have the build for it and his limitations shows. It would have been a natural thing for a team to move their starting RG to C if it's a position that he could play. Blythe was evaluated as a C pre-draft because of his build. He lacks the length in terms of height and arm length as well as the weight you want to match up to a 3T DT. He struggles to drive a DT off the LOS and in single pass protection. Most teams want their RG to be primarily a run blocker, i.e. road grader type of olineman. Blythe isn't that kind of player. Just look at the first offensive series of the NO playoff game and you will see an example of what I'm saying on two of their 3 plays.

We run the old Denver ZBS scheme with heavy outside zone action. What that means is the Rams don't require their OL to be able to "drive a DT off the LOS" but rather use technique and movement to remove them from the play. It also is a scheme that allowed Denver to find starters among smallish and non-physical OL that were overlooked by most other teams back in the day. This is exactly what happened with Blythe, who is not really a starting quality Center nor is he physical as you observed. But he can do the job for us due to our scheme having a lower floor requirement physically speaking.

All that aside the question is whether the Rams have any options on the depth chart who are capable of challenging him at RG. I think they do. Blythe still has the edge obviously, but he's not the long-term answer there at RG (marginal player on the last year of his contract) and the Rams just brought in some young OL who have good mobility for their size and who seem to fit what they want to do.

This is going to be a transition year on the OL. We are going to see 2 new starters on the interior so Blythe should be safe for continuity purposes. But I do think one of the goals in camp is to run our young core of OL through that RG position and see what they have with an eye towards replacing Blythe.

 

[Soul Surfer]

Brian Allen basically the same size & was drafted in the 4th by Kromer. The reason why Sullivan was let go.

I think that means that real football coaches know you need 2 real NFL centers.

Sullivan just hit the wall last year midseason and started fading badly.
Everybody ages differently.

They couldn't let that happen again no matter who they had or who they drafted.

 

[So Ram]

I think that means that real football coaches know you need 2 real NFL centers.

Sullivan just hit the wall last year midseason and started fading badly.
Everybody ages differently.

They couldn't let that happen again no matter who they had or who they drafted.

The fact Brian Allen was ready played a huge part of The Rams letting Sullivan go. I agree his play went down. His salary at a high premium for only being a center. Austin Blythe is the starting RG who can slide over to center. That is his added value as well.
The hope is Demby can convert to a C/G

 

[So Ram]

Blythe is playing out of position at OG. He simply doesn't have the build for it and his limitations shows. It would have been a natural thing for a team to move their starting RG to C if it's a position that he could play. Blythe was evaluated as a C pre-draft because of his build. He lacks the length in terms of height and arm length as well as the weight you want to match up to a 3T DT. He struggles to drive a DT off the LOS and in single pass protection. Most teams want their RG to be primarily a run blocker, i.e. road grader type of olineman. Blythe isn't that kind of player. Just look at the first offensive series of the NO playoff game and you will see an example of what I'm saying on two of their 3 plays.

Agree - I’m not a big Blythe fan. I think he was a weak link. Even more so than Sullivan. The knowledge Allen gained from playing behind Sullivan was priceless.

 

[So Ram]

We run the old Denver ZBS scheme with heavy outside zone action. What that means is the Rams don't require their OL to be able to "drive a DT off the LOS" but rather use technique and movement to remove them from the play. It also is a scheme that allowed Denver to find starters among smallish and non-physical OL that were overlooked by most other teams back in the day. This is exactly what happened with Blythe, who is not really a starting quality Center nor is he physical as you observed. But he can do the job for us due to our scheme having a lower floor requirement physically speaking.

All that aside the question is whether the Rams have any options on the depth chart who are capable of challenging him at RG. I think they do. Blythe still has the edge obviously, but he's not the long-term answer there at RG (marginal player on the last year of his contract) and the Rams just brought in some young OL who have good mobility for their size and who seem to fit what they want to do.

This is going to be a transition year on the OL. We are going to see 2 new starters on the interior so Blythe should be safe for continuity purposes. But I do think one of the goals in camp is to run our young core of OL through that RG position and see what they have with an eye towards replacing Blythe.

Excellent take !! The future of how things play out will be interesting. This is for sure a transition year.

 

[Soul Surfer]

The hope is Demby can convert to a C/G

I'm thinking he'll be the first man off the bench.

But I am thinking RT/G.

If left tackle goes down, they slide over Noteboom and Demby comes in at left guard.
If LG Noteboom goes down, Demby comes in at left guard.
If Center goes down, Demby comes in at Right Guard while Blythe goes to Center.
If the Right Guard goes down, Demby comes in at RG.
If right tackle goes down then Demby becomes in at right tackle.

Yes:lifting:
I have that much faith in Kromer.:lifting:

 

[oldnotdead]

I understand the scheme the Rams oline plays. But like all teams they mix in inside zone and occasionally power. But on short yardage the Rams struggled last year and one aspect was their inability to simply line up and blow the dline off the LOS. They resorted to all sorts of other things. One of those things is the QB dive which I'm not a fan of as it exposes Goff to hits, i.e. injury. If your oline can drive the defense off the LOS you give it to your RB. Why do you think Goff was diving for it so much? His dives were directly over center or to the left, not to the right where Blythe was.

One big telling point with Allen vs Blythe as the starting C is their physical makeup. Allen is built like a OG only a bit shorter than you would like. But his longer arms gives him a better play radius and he's simply a bigger player. I would much rather see Demby or Evans at RG this year. Evans would make sense as he then can switch sides to LG next year when Noteboom moves to LT.

The Rams don't want a finesse oline. They want a big dominating unit. Don't overlook Kromer's input on player selection as he is now the run game coordinator. Everywhere he's been Kromer's olines have been known for their physical play. Case in point, Dallas wants to dominate the run game. All their interior oline are at least 6'3", and between 300-315 lbs. All are long armed players. Those long arms allow them to keep defenders off their bodies and leveraging them.

So Kromer goes with Allen who is built like a OG with longer arms than Blythe to start at C. If he wanted a longer armed bigger guy at C will he stand pat with Blythe at RG when he has better options? This is why I've been saying I think Blythe won't be a starter on this team this year. He's in a contract year so unless he wants to stay as a backup next year I think he's gone. IMO Kromer will be allowed to play his guys and build the oline his way. Finesse isn't Kromer's style. He will play it when he doesn't have the players, but when he does IMO he will opt for the bigger, stronger oline.

Remember the original starter at RG was Jamon Brown, 6'4", 323 lbs, with very long 34" arms. Jamil Demby is 6'5", 321 lbs and just under 34" arms. John Sullivan is 6'4", 310 lbs with 31.5" arms and Brian Allen is 6'3", 303 lbs and 31.5" arms. Austin Blythe is 6'3", 298 lbs and 30" arms.

They played Blythe when Brown went down because he was a 3rd year player and Demby wasn't ready to play. IMO Demby was drafted to eventually replace Brown because I think they knew of his substance abuse issue. The fact they released Brown so quickly upon his return would seem to validate that assumption.

Making Kromer and Waldron coordinators was a very shrewd move by McVay and Snead. It makes it harder for teams to keep poaching their coaches. They can block lateral moves so teams would have to offer them OC and DC positions to get them. But in doing so IMO it would seem to give each one more say in player selection. To build and structure their units accordingly. I think Kromer is rebuilding the oline with guys much like they had to begin the 2018 season. Bobby Evans is in that physical profile fit to play OG as well which is why I'm sure he's slated to take over at LG next year. Edwards fit's their OT profile and it's why I think he's slated to be the swing tackle.

 

[So Ram]

I'm thinking he'll be the first man off the bench.

But I am thinking RT/G.

If left tackle goes down, they slide over Noteboom and Demby comes in at left guard.
If LG Noteboom goes down, Demby comes in at left guard.
If Center goes down, Demby comes in at Right Guard while Blythe goes to Center.
If the Right Guard goes down, Demby comes in at RG.
If right tackle goes down then Demby becomes in at right tackle.

Yes:lifting:
I have that much faith in Kromer.:lifting:

I don’t see Demby being all that ?? Will see what happens, but cross training for Demby is a good message being sent sent for a a swing G/C

 

[So Ram]

I understand the scheme the Rams oline plays. But like all teams they mix in inside zone and occasionally power. But on short yardage the Rams struggled last year and one aspect was their inability to simply line up and blow the dline off the LOS. They resorted to all sorts of other things. One of those things is the QB dive which I'm not a fan of as it exposes Goff to hits, i.e. injury. If your oline can drive the defense off the LOS you give it to your RB. Why do you think Goff was diving for it so much? His dives were directly over center or to the left, not to the right where Blythe was.

One big telling point with Allen vs Blythe as the starting C is their physical makeup. Allen is built like a OG only a bit shorter than you would like. But his longer arms gives him a better play radius and he's simply a bigger player. I would much rather see Demby or Evans at RG this year. Evans would make sense as he then can switch sides to LG next year when Noteboom moves to LT.

The Rams don't want a finesse oline. They want a big dominating unit. Don't overlook Kromer's input on player selection as he is now the run game coordinator. Everywhere he's been Kromer's olines have been known for their physical play. Case in point, Dallas wants to dominate the run game. All their interior oline are at least 6'3", and between 300-315 lbs. All are long armed players. Those long arms allow them to keep defenders off their bodies and leveraging them.

So Kromer goes with Allen who is built like a OG with longer arms than Blythe to start at C. If he wanted a longer armed bigger guy at C will he stand pat with Blythe at RG when he has better options? This is why I've been saying I think Blythe won't be a starter on this team this year. He's in a contract year so unless he wants to stay as a backup next year I think he's gone. IMO Kromer will be allowed to play his guys and build the oline his way. Finesse isn't Kromer's style. He will play it when he doesn't have the players, but when he does IMO he will opt for the bigger, stronger oline.

Remember the original starter at RG was Jamon Brown, 6'4", 323 lbs, with very long 34" arms. Jamil Demby is 6'5", 321 lbs and just under 34" arms. John Sullivan is 6'4", 310 lbs with 31.5" arms and Brian Allen is 6'3", 303 lbs and 31.5" arms. Austin Blythe is 6'3", 298 lbs and 30" arms.

They played Blythe when Brown went down because he was a 3rd year player and Demby wasn't ready to play. IMO Demby was drafted to eventually replace Brown because I think they knew of his substance abuse issue. The fact they released Brown so quickly upon his return would seem to validate that assumption.

Making Kromer and Waldron coordinators was a very shrewd move by McVay and Snead. It makes it harder for teams to keep poaching their coaches. They can block lateral moves so teams would have to offer them OC and DC positions to get them. But in doing so IMO it would seem to give each one more say in player selection. To build and structure their units accordingly. I think Kromer is rebuilding the oline with guys much like they had to begin the 2018 season. Bobby Evans is in that physical profile fit to play OG as well which is why I'm sure he's slated to take over at LG next year. Edwards fit's their OT profile and it's why I think he's slated to be the swing tackle.

Brown ended up getting cut & Blythe taking his spot. Demby was brought back because The Rams could control his contract better at a lower price, plus his upside.

If your talking arm length then none of this would have happened.

 

[Soul Surfer]

The fact Brian Allen was ready played a huge part of The Rams letting Sullivan go.

Is this a "fact" or is this what is known as, "supposition"?

I think it will be a FACT once he proves it over a period of time.

I truly hope that Allen is ready but I don't even think the coaches know that 100% yet.

 

[So Ram]

Is this a "fact" or is this what is known as, "supposition"?

I think it will be a FACT once he proves it over a period of time.

I truly hope that Allen is ready but I don't even think the coaches know that 100% yet.

Well, Jared Goff believes in him. They have a good relationship, and Sullivan was a big part of the C/QB connection. I like the communication that Goff brings to the offensive line.
Day 1 when Whit & Sullivan came into The Rams organization there was a bond set.Goff makes sure he is on the same page.
Kromer has no doubt about Allen.I like the fact Brian Allen does not want the job handed to him. He wants to strive & compete.

Sure he only has a few real NFL reps in him, so there is always doubt. The experience from last season was huge though. Gave him time to get his mind,body, & soul together.

Demby is the guy who needs a lot of reps. Allen is not going to give up to many of them.

 

[Merlin]

If Center goes down, Demby comes in at Right Guard while Blythe goes to Center.

Right now our Center depth is probably the worst on the OL. If Blythe has to go in at Center we are in a non-ideal situation. There is a reason he's not playing Center for us, and it's that he's not skilled with calls or in reading defensive tendencies pre-snap. I hope Allen can stay healthy in there.

Which is where Demby can really help himself if he can show some of those things. We'll have to wait and see how he does in preseason and if they give him reps there, though, as it's one of those spots where some dudes just don't have it.

 

[Soul Surfer]

@oldnotdead.
I really don't see them starting any rookies until at least midseason and then they would have had a really prove themselves in practice.

I'm pretty sure that the coaches let Austin Blythe know that he had to beef it up a little bit if he wanted to hold on to a starting spot and go for the prize second contract somewhere.

I do think they like the idea of using young go get 'em second-year players like Demby and Allen.

One of the reasons that the Rams are proponents of veterans days off is to make sure their future starters get a lot of work in.

I believe that Evans and Edwards will have to go through that as well though one of them could be a game-day active with Demby.

So I see next year's offensive line as being;
Noteboom
Evans
Allen
Demby/Edwards
Havenstein

I think Neary comes back is our backup center.

 

[Soul Surfer]

I think our Center depth is just fine.

I think Allen should be ready and if he's not, Blythe slides over with Demby in at Right Guard.

Our depth really is based on how fast Edwards and Evans can develop to be ready this year if needed, in my opinion.

One injury on the O-line makes Evans and Edwards game day actives.

Luckily for us, we have one of the top offensive line coaches in the league with Kromer.

 

[Merlin]

I understand the scheme the Rams oline plays. But like all teams they mix in inside zone and occasionally power. But on short yardage the Rams struggled last year and one aspect was their inability to simply line up and blow the dline off the LOS.

Well your post was going on about how they don't blow people off the ball, which is something their scheme isn't meant to do; even back in the Denver glory days with that OL taking out guys' legs with BS blocks you didn't see them blow defenders back. But you saw huge gaps, however, with movement and sealing guys off causing piles of bodies and lanes for the RBs to gash the defense.

That distinction is important when I see you claiming "The Rams don't want a finesse oline. They want a big dominating unit." That is not true IMO. What they want is guys who can move and play with technique and execute a zone running scheme. If you can get a bigger guy in the draft who moves well so be it, but it's not some huge concern that's a fan thing where the fan looks at listed weights and wrings his hands over whether they're big enough.

Lastly, the truest "power" OL we had on this line last season was Roger Saffold. Who they just let walk in FA. The truth is the zone scheme does not focus on size as some key metric. It's focus is athleticism and technique. Size is great to have, but the Rams weren't in their draft room pounding the table for size and strength with this class of OL they brought in.

 

[Soul Surfer]

It seems to me that we play at least 90% Zone with just a few man blocking schemes thrown in to throw the defensive line off on occasion.

MBS is obviously more of a man on man scheme where you don't have to work as a team as much.

Zone blocking is ALL about working as a team.

Those smaller 300/310 pound lineman's size allows them to work with more speed on those sweeps.

I'm sure that is why they took two former tackles with Evans and Edwards as they are looking for guys with superior footwork.