Blur the line between 11 and 12 Personnel

[CoachAllred]

@jrry32 @Merlin

Just re-watching the Patriots game and had a thought and wanted to pose a question.
I directed this question toward jrry32 and Merlin for obvious reasons, but want to hear
input from anyone who may have a thought on it.

Question- Is there a player coming up in the draft or an attainable player in the NFL
who would truly be a hybrid TE/WR?
In other words a player capable of filling the roll of a TE in the 12 and a WR in 11

I was just thinking how valuable a player that could be. To be able to go from 11 to 12
without substitution,

Jrry32 have you seen anyone coming up from the college ranks that would fit that criteria
and Merlin, Jrry32 do you think this would be as advantageous as I do? Or am I missing a reason
that would make this a empty idea.

 

[Merlin]

Haven't been looking hard at this draft this year so I'm as interested in hearing peoples' answers on your question as you are. Though this should probably be in the draft forum.

 

[Merlin]

One note too irt the current roster... The kid Hopkins we drafted last year was very advanced in the passing game and will need a lot of work in blocking but he's potentially the kind of player you're alluding to. And Kupp is kind of a TE/WR hybrid.

 

[Karate61]

Well, how about a guy we just drafted this year?

Brycen Hopkins

6'5
245lbs
4.66 combine 40 yrd dash

Question is, is he big enough to block and fast enough to act as a Wideout? Maybe, if you consider the advantage of disguising 11 or 12 personal just before a snap.

 

[Giles]

Brevin jordan from Miami

 

[jrry32]

@jrry32 @Merlin

Just re-watching the Patriots game and had a thought and wanted to pose a question.
I directed this question toward jrry32 and Merlin for obvious reasons, but want to hear
input from anyone who may have a thought on it.

Question- Is there a player coming up in the draft or an attainable player in the NFL
who would truly be a hybrid TE/WR?
In other words a player capable of filling the roll of a TE in the 12 and a WR in 11

I was just thinking how valuable a player that could be. To be able to go from 11 to 12
without substitution,

Jrry32 have you seen anyone coming up from the college ranks that would fit that criteria
and Merlin, Jrry32 do you think this would be as advantageous as I do? Or am I missing a reason
that would make this a empty idea.

Obviously, as Merlin mentioned, there's the Hopkins kid we drafted last year. In this draft, Kyle Pitts is a superstar WR/TE hybrid, but he's gone in the top 10 or so picks. Brevin Jordan is a great talent. He's like Jordan Reed, but he's likely drafted before we pick. The TE who plays behind him at Miami, Will Mallory, is also a great talent. He could be available if he declares. I don't know the projected Day 3 TEs well enough to say at this point if any fits.

 

[RamsOfCastamere]

That's Everett! We pretty much had him in the slot in passing situations until he developed into a better blocker. It was a tell in the Superbowl actually. The Pats said they knew it was a pass when Everett was in the game. Now we're using him a lot on run plays too, and he's still out there running routes.

EDIT: Unless you're asking for a guy to replace him if he leaves?

 

[CoachAllred]

Well, how about a guy we just drafted this year?

Brycen Hopkins

6'5
245lbs
4.66 combine 40 yrd dash

Question is, is he big enough to block and fast enough to act as a Wideout? Maybe, if you consider the advantage of disguising 11 or 12 personal just before a snap.

View attachment 41923

View attachment 41922

Wow. forgot all bout him. He certainly has the physical tools to be that guy.
Like you said though, he has to improve his blocking skills.

 

[CoachAllred]

And Kupp is kind of a TE/WR hybrid.

I was thinking he would need more size to be the 2nd TE in the 12 and the speed stay on the field in the 11.
But you guys nailed it with Hopkins. He has all of the physical traits I was thinking of, but will need to develop
the blocking skillls.
I also think @RamsOfCastamere is right about Everett was supposed to be that guy, but has not developed
into the weapon McSnead had hoped.
Thanks guys!!!

 

[TexasRam]

I'm not a college watcher at all but I do have a few thoughts.

1. It seems to me we have been using the 12 personnel more this year even before the Pats game. Am I wrong? I didn't get a percent, but noticed we used it a lot in the Arizona game. Or so it seemed. We also went to the 5 wide game vs Zona more than usual it seemed. Does anyone know where to get these formation counts?

2. Our TE blocking needs to get better. I do carefully review every game to see how the blocking execution goes. One thing that always stands out when a run fails, almost everytime, is either a TE or WR screwing up a block. It really is a problem in this scheme I think. All the TE screens and stuff makes the passing game better, but the TE's used in this scheme are so dam inconsistent in the run game it drives me nuts. Everett missed multiple blocks nearly every game and Higbee has been knicked up a lot this year so maybe he deserves a pass, but he is sometimes terrible as well. Though I would say Higbee seems more consistent to Everett. Kupp and Reynolds often miss blocks as well at times. As difficult as it is for me to say it. Kupp has been better lately though. My overall point is we really need better blocking TE's. I think it would really benefit the run game and offense overall. So, I am interested in hearing what the resident college scouters see as possibiites as blocking TE's. Especially if we are going to go more 12 personnel.

 

[CoachAllred]

Obviously, as Merlin mentioned, there's the Hopkins kid we drafted last year. In this draft, Kyle Pitts is a superstar WR/TE hybrid, but he's gone in the top 10 or so picks. Brevin Jordan is a great talent. He's like Jordan Reed, but he's likely drafted before we pick. The TE who plays behind him at Miami, Will Mallory, is also a great talent. He could be available if he declares. I don't know the projected Day 3 TEs well enough to say at this point if any fits.

Thx Bro. May revisit this after you get into Draft mode.
Always look forward to your Draft analysis.

 

[CoachAllred]

I'm not a college watcher at all but I do have a few thoughts.

1. It seems to me we have been using the 12 personnel more this year even before the Pats game. Am I wrong? I didn't get a percent, but noticed we used it a lot in the Arizona game. Or so it seemed. We also went to the 5 wide game vs Zona more than usual it seemed. Does anyone know where to get these formation counts?

2. Our TE blocking needs to get better. I do carefully review every game to see how the blocking execution goes. One thing that always stands out when a run fails, almost everytime, is either a TE or WR screwing up a block. It really is a problem in this scheme I think. All the TE screens and stuff makes the passing game better, but the TE's used in this scheme are so dam inconsistent in the run game it drives me nuts. Everett missed multiple blocks nearly every game and Higbee has been knicked up a lot this year so maybe he deserves a pass, but he is sometimes terrible as well. Though I would say Higbee seems more consistent to Everett. Kupp and Reynolds often miss blocks as well at times. As difficult as it is for me to say it. Kupp has been better lately though. My overall point is we really need better blocking TE's. I think it would really benefit the run game and offense overall. So, I am interested in hearing what the resident college scouters see as possibiites as blocking TE's. Especially if we are going to go more 12 personnel.

I think the thing that is difficult about running 12 personnel is that while you do want great blocking from the TE'S
They have do be a threat as a receiver as well.
If you have a TE who is a great blocker, but not a threat at receiver, then that would allow defenses to stack the
run. So it's a difficult balance to obtain.
As far as our WR's I think we have the best blocking WR duo in the game. They're not perfect, but you would be hard pressed
to find any better

 

[CoachAllred]

Now that's the frame of a perfect Hybrid

 

[jrry32]

Now that's the frame of a perfect Hybrid
View attachment 41924

He didn't block well in college, but maybe he'll be better in a move role. It was weird because my biggest issue with his blocking was physicality, and as the kid of a Pro Bowl NFL OL (Brad Hopkins), it's surprising he lacked it.

 

[Karate61]

Now that's the frame of a perfect Hybrid
View attachment 41924

That's what I was thinking too!

 

[CoachAllred]

blocking was physicality, and as the kid of a Pro Bowl NFL OL (Brad Hopkins), it's surprising he lacked it.

I know , right? And that is something that can't really be taught.

 

[TexasRam]

I think the thing that is difficult about running 12 personnel is that while you do want great blocking from the TE'S
They have do be a threat as a receiver as well.
If you have a TE who is a great blocker, but not a threat at receiver, then that would allow defenses to stack the
run. So it's a difficult balance to obtain.
As far as our WR's I think we have the best blocking WR duo in the game. They're not perfect, but you would be hard pressed
to find any better

I would say they are asked to do more than most teams, but I wouldn't say they are the best in the league. Actually, I would have to watch a shitload of games and exclusively focus on the WR blocking to know. All I can tell you for sure is I watch every single one of our games in review each week and Kupp, Reynolds and our TE's are inconsistent at times and get beaten on their blocks. Given, the scheme asks them to block much bigger players and at angles that are extremely difficult at times. It's no knock on our players effort or ability. They are usually undersized for who they are blocking and expected to often get to a spot and put a perfect block on the bigger player. The fact that they don't penalized for holds due to how disadvantaged they are is amazing really. Most of them use great technique. The plus for this unorthodox approach is it allows these same blockers to leak out into open areas for screens and other routes. This does force the defenders to take a look and see approach. When a Kupp or Higbee engages them they have to pause and think if this player is trying to leak out on a route or trying to actually run block.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I think what you are asking for is what every NFL coach wants from a tight end. McVay had one in Jordan Reed. Shanahan has a great one with Kittle. He excels at both blocking and runs like a receiver. Kittle was a fourth round pick. Jerry was all over that one.

I think if a TE does not display some ability to block in college and is mainly a big WR then hoping he can learn to block is a roll of the dice. I’d like it if Hopkins becomes that, butI won’t get my hopes too high.

This years draft presents Snead with a unique opportunity to get some steals. Many college teams had limited practices and didn’t play great. There should be many under the radar types to find.

 

[CanadaRam]

Most hybrid TE/WR are stronger at catching than blocking.
It usually takes a TE until their third year in the league to get the blocking down.

There are few TEs that are really strong receivers that are also TE quality blockers. At this point, I only see Kittle in that category. I'm not sure Kelce is much better a blocker than Kupp or Woods.

Rams have 2 strong TEs that can block and catch. Rams are better off than most. I don't think that an upgrade will be found.
Hopefully with Everett likely gone in the off-season that one that Rams are grooming can step in for him

 

[CoachAllred]

I only see Kittle in that category.

Ugh. I still cringe every time I hear that name.
I love Snead and wouldn't trade him for anything,
but that was one that got away.
Wouldn't have been as bad , but @jrry32 had been really hyping
Kittle predraft and had me convinced that he was the man the Rams should take
We end up taking Everett with Kittle still on the board. the rest is history.
Can you imagine what this team would look like with Kittle?
He lost out too though. If he were playing for Sean, he wouldn't get injured so much