Billy D and Bernie M

[RamFan503]

I have to say that any time I see statements with the likes of terms "resolutely untrue" or "undeniable" my eyes start to glaze over. I realize that injuries forced a lot of issues upon the former regime but I also do remember them making some moves that were obviously going to have the effect of going with the older players with mediocre ability while tossing future upside. The only explanation that made sense to me at the time was the urgency to win NOW and hopefully be able to fight another day as coach and GM.

Again, I am not one to bash BD or Spags. I still am not sure ANYONE could have done even a decent job with what they faced. But now, this regime is being put into place the RIGHT way. Onward and upward.

 

[RamFan503]

Unless it's me. Because, you know, I'm NEVER wrong about anything. Look it up.

Ahem... Lemon JELLY Filled Donuts? Just sayin'

 

[Anonymous]

Well, that's because it didn't happen that way. Levoir replaced Jabara as I stated earlier. They were trying to sneak him on the PS and it didn't work. He wasn't the only player that we lost that way, Jabara was just the straw for most people. It's never just one thing, but if you don't get it, I get it, no problem.

EVERYBODY knew the offense was out of sync, it was painfully obvious.

No people to this day deny that the offense was out of sync and the certainly did (and more of them) at the time. Especially WHY. It was clear that that was the install and that went to McDaniels. Saying that actually got me in trouble. It has gotten to the point where when someone says the offense was not out of sync that I quote posters telling me that everybody knew that.

I said they tried to sneak Wms on to the ps. My actual words: BD didn't like a 7th round pick pick being waived for the practice squad. They signed Levoir and DIDN'T IR J.Smith because at that point they wondered if they could get Smith back. So yeah it happened as I said. Good thing they signed Levoir, too, cause he ended up having to start n ithe SF game.

AND they signed Cole. Who is still on the roster, as Williams would have been.

The Williams story is so blown out of proportion, the only equivalent I can think of was when Vermeil traded Greg Hill away to Detroit before 99 and it caused a riot.

You want bad things? Drafting Phillips, Canidate, Lewis, Thomas, Kennedy, Barron, Hill, and Carriker; signing Chavous, Bennett, Sehorn; and drafting the likes of Incognito, Terrell, Wroten, and Byrd in consecutive drafts.

And we're arguing over the relative value of Jabara Williams v. Justin Cole?

And the only other player they lost that way was was Hines. I know, I was one of the first to post that I didn't like the policy of cutting lower draft picks. Meanwhile, the present 90 man roster is full of players they acquired in 2011, including the likes of Gordy and Burney among several others. So I just don't think regimes stand and fall in relation to issues that minor when the real problem that caused 2011 was having to cope with the decade's most injured offense.

 

[Anonymous]

I have to say that any time I see statements with the likes of terms "resolutely untrue" or "undeniable" my eyes start to glaze over. I realize that injuries forced a lot of issues upon the former regime but I also do remember them making some moves that were obviously going to have the effect of going with the older players with mediocre ability while tossing future upside

.

But, see, I don't get how signing some one-year vets...ONE YEAR VETS...is supposed to deeply alter the roster. Meanwhile, this roster is STILL full of young players they acquired in 2011, and not just through the draft. Including guys like Hughes, Mattison, Cole, Gordy, and Burney. Among others.

Maybe your eyes glaze over because like the rest of us you buy into your own opinion. And like the rest of us don't buy into opposing opinions. Which would make you one of us, ie. one more person in a discussion consisting of clashing opinions.

Meanwhile I will tell you exactly how it looks to me. Signing some one-year vets to make up for a lockout does not look to me anything remotely like a huge change in plans. The rookies were not going to be useful without an off-season. Yet in the end, as I said, the present 90-man roster is STILL stocked with young players they acquired last year.

 

[-X-]

Unless it's me. Because, you know, I'm NEVER wrong about anything. Look it up.

Ahem... Lemon JELLY Filled Donuts? Just sayin'

Exactly my point. :razzed:

 

[RamFan503]

Maybe your eyes glaze over because like the rest of us you buy into your own opinion. And like the rest of us don't buy into opposing opinions. Which would make you one of us, ie. one more person in a discussion consisting of clashing opinions.

In a way - yes. I certainly consider myself one of US. It's just that when someone uses absolutes when expressing opinion, it smacks of piety. As you yourself have said (paraphrasing of course because I don't want to get too long winded - ha! ZING!!!), we are often misread when others are only reading a response and not hearing how it is being said. IMO - using absolutes in an opinion piece only begs for the glazing over of eyeballs. Maybe it's just me. Nah... I know absolutely for a fact that is not the case.

 

[RamFan503]

Unless it's me. Because, you know, I'm NEVER wrong about anything. Look it up.

Ahem... Lemon JELLY Filled Donuts? Just sayin'

Exactly my point. :razzed:

I just looked it up. You're WRONG!!! And I say that with the utmost respect possible. Asshole! :7up:

 

[Selassie I]

 

[DR RAM]

zn wrote:

No people to this day deny that the offense was out of sync and the certainly did (and more of them) at the time. Especially WHY. It was clear that that was the install and that went to McDaniels. Saying that actually got me in trouble. It has gotten to the point where when someone says the offense was not out of sync that I quote posters telling me that everybody knew that.

I feel sorry for people that thought the offense was in sync, because if it was, we would have scored points, but what exactly does in sync mean? I mean, it's so many things, and can't be attributed to one thing, IMO, even if you really, REALLY believe it. It was a cluster fuck of problems, and in the interviews Billy D even said that McD was running around trying to coach coaches among everything else he had to do. This was brought up my me a few weeks ago. McD installing a new offense without having support was a huge mistake.

I said they tried to sneak Wms on to the ps. My actual words: BD didn't like a 7th round pick pick being waived for the practice squad. They signed Levoir and DIDN'T IR J.Smith because at that point they wondered if they could get Smith back. So yeah it happened as I said. Good thing they signed Levoir, too, cause he ended up having to start n ithe SF game.

You also said that they did this to pick up another practice team player instead of him.

AND they signed Cole. Who is still on the roster, as Williams would have been.

They signed him two weeks later when we lost other players. Billy always kept trying to find good young players. I applaud him for that.

The Williams story is so blown out of proportion, the only equivalent I can think of was when Vermeil traded Greg Hill away to Detroit before 99 and it caused a riot.

I'm not crying about Williams, but it was a mistake and even Billy D admitted that.

You want bad things? Drafting Phillips, Canidate, Lewis, Thomas, Kennedy, Barron, Hill, and Carriker; signing Chavous, Bennett, Sehorn; and drafting the likes of Incognito, Terrell, Wroten, and Byrd in consecutive drafts.

I don't want bad drafting, who does? Now this is a different conversation.

And we're arguing over the relative value of Jabara Williams v. Justin Cole?

I don't know the value yet, so no. But you act like they were swapped for one another and they were not.

And the only other player they lost that way was was Hines. I know, I was one of the first to post that I didn't like the policy of cutting lower draft picks. Meanwhile, the present 90 man roster is full of players they acquired in 2011, including the likes of Gordy and Burney among several others. So I just don't think regimes stand and fall in relation to issues that minor when the real problem that caused 2011 was having to cope with the decade's most injured offense.

Not true, do more research and see if you can find out others that were lost. First one to post that, really? I can take that you said that, but first one to say that?

 

[tbux]

I think BD did a fine job considering he adopted a pretty terrible situation- and this year and beyond many are gonna see just how good he drafted when guys like Long,JL,Quinn,JS,Saff,Salas and last but certainly not least- Sam- some of these will become probowlers. lets see what they all say then.

 

[-X-]

see if you can find out others that were lost

Jermale Hines, Mikail Baker, Jonathan Nelson, Jabara Williams, Hall Davis and George Selvie come to mind.

I don't care about Gilyard. I don't think he has what it takes to make it in this league. Of course I don't know that for sure, but I just never got the impression that he had a head for the game. Fendi Onobun was a shot in the dark to begin with, and I'm not sure he has the tools to make it either.

Did I miss anyone?

 

[-X-]

I think BD did a fine job considering he adopted a pretty terrible situation- and this year and beyond many are gonna see just how good he drafted when guys like Long,JL,Quinn,JS,Saff,Salas and last but certainly not least- Sam- some of these will become probowlers. lets see what they all say then.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with Devaney's ability to bring in players at all. Not at all. Signing free agents wasn't his responsibility, so I can't get behind statements that he didn't go after Vincent Jackson or players of his ilk (even though it wasn't a viable option). Bringing in guys for almost nothing was something we hadn't seen in a long, long time here. Amendola, Alexander, Gibson, Lloyd, etc. Who else thought enough of Amendola (or scouted him) to take a chance on him as a starter? That was pretty good.

 

[Anonymous]

Not true, do more research and see if you can find out others that were lost. First one to post that, really? I can take that you said that, but first one to say that?

Why would I do research about guys who were cut? Every draft is full of guys who were cut. How many players per draft do you think make it on what we both acknowledge are good drafting teams?

And why would calling a "cut" someone who is "lost" be anything more than one person's particular spin?

Really, looking at good drafting teams, how many players do you think make it per draft?

I protested Wms. and Hines when it happened and ALSO was well aware that it was a minor issue. I mean really. We have seen drafts like 2005-2007 dominated by knuckleheads (Wroten, Terrell etc.) and wasted picks (Leonard)...and we're arguing over Jabara Williams? Honestly? THAT has become the great symbol of Rams roster mismanagement?

As for the rest of your post, I will return to it. I do not mean anything personal by this, but it's just a thing of mine--as a rule I don't respond to point by point posts, cause responding to them is for me a formatting nightmare, plus at the time when point by point posts appear, I generally think it's a good idea to slow the conversation down. We have weeks for this.

 

[DR RAM]

see if you can find out others that were lost

Jermale Hines, Mikail Baker, Jonathan Nelson, Jabara Williams, Hall Davis and George Selvie come to mind.

I don't care about Gilyard. I don't think he has what it takes to make it in this league. Of course I don't know that for sure, but I just never got the impression that he had a head for the game. Fendi Onobun was a shot in the dark to begin with, and I'm not sure he has the tools to make it either.

Did I miss anyone?

Well, there are a couple more if we want to go there. I think some of the guys you mentioned fit into maybe a different category. But sticking with guys to sneak onto the PS, QB, Thaddeus Lewis kind of started it all. John Greco comes to mind, as well as the young center that they released, who they were grooming, only to have to sign another center a couple weeks later. This was because of injuries.

And again, this is just for sake of argument. I think some of them were mistakes, and a lot were forced by injuries.

 

[DR RAM]

Not true, do more research and see if you can find out others that were lost. First one to post that, really? I can take that you said that, but first one to say that?

Why would I do research about guys who were cut? Every draft is full of guys who were cut. How many players per draft do you think make it on what we both acknowledge are good drafting teams?

And why would calling a "cut" someone who is "lost" be anything more than one person's particular spin?

Really, looking at good drafting teams, how many players do you think make it per draft?

I protested Wms. and Hines when it happened and ALSO was well aware that it was a minor issue. I mean really. We have seen drafts like 2005-2007 dominated by knuckleheads (Wroten, Terrell etc.) and wasted picks (Leonard)...and we're arguing over Jabara Williams? Honestly? THAT has become the great symbol of Rams roster mismanagement?

As for the rest of your post, I will return to it. I do not mean anything personal by this, but it's just a thing of mine--as a rule I don't respond to point by point posts, cause responding to them is for me a formatting nightmare, plus at the time when point by point posts appear, I generally think it's a good idea to slow the conversation down. We have weeks for this.

Just trying to keep the posts honest as they happened for those who don't know, that's all. BTW, I don't like doing point by point posts, but I wanted to be clear, and I didn't edit anything out or post it out of context.

I don't care about Jabara, but was trying to get across to you, and I guess that I didn't, but I don't know how, that to most people, it was PROBABLY the straw that broke the camels back. If it wasn't, then my opinion is still mine, but possibly wrong.

THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT JABARA WILLIAMS! It is about what Billy D. was saying in these interviews and how the team was run, and about mistakes that were admittedly made.

I think I'm done here, and I hope that I didn't offend anybody.

 

[-X-]

see if you can find out others that were lost

Jermale Hines, Mikail Baker, Jonathan Nelson, Jabara Williams, Hall Davis and George Selvie come to mind.

I don't care about Gilyard. I don't think he has what it takes to make it in this league. Of course I don't know that for sure, but I just never got the impression that he had a head for the game. Fendi Onobun was a shot in the dark to begin with, and I'm not sure he has the tools to make it either.

Did I miss anyone?

Well, there are a couple more if we want to go there. I think some of the guys you mentioned fit into maybe a different category. But sticking with guys to sneak onto the PS, QB, Thaddeus Lewis kind of started it all. John Greco comes to mind, as well as the young center that they released, who they were grooming, only to have to sign another center a couple weeks later. This was because of injuries.

And again, this is just for sake of argument. I think some of them were mistakes, and a lot were forced by injuries.

I don't know the center you're talking about. Beau Warren maybe? If we don't know his name, I'm pretty sure Jake McQuaide is a better option. And man oh man am I sick of the Thaddeus Lewis loss. Nothing against you, but that's pretty insignificant to me. I liked him and all, but I think the fan base went off the deep end when Cleveland picked him up. Like he was the next Steve McNair or something. I guess it could be construed as a mistake to the casual observer, but I don't know that the rest of the Rams coaching staff thought so. Personally, I'd rather have Clemens or even Brandstater. I just like pocket QBs for some reason.

And yeah, a lot of those losses were going to happen because of injury. So I guess, after having looked at it again, it's not a big deal. I don't think it was a course-derailer to have to get rid of most of those guys. Though, I did (as a casual observer) like Hall Davis and George Selvie. I also think that one big tackle Williams made in preseason was a reason why people hated to see him go. And no, I'm not being facetious. It was a massive tackle.

 

[Anonymous]

THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT JABARA WILLIAMS! It is about what Billy D. was saying in these interviews and how the team was run, and about mistakes that were admittedly made.

Of course he's going to say mistakes were made. A GM falls on his sword when it's time. If he doesn't he's cruxified for it. (A double Roman reference!)

But that honestly does not mean there WERE any major mistakes actually really made.

Vermeil was the last best Rams personnel guy and he had a long list of failed free agents (Eric Hill? Leslie O'Neal?) plus after round 1 the 99 draft is a wasteland.

BD never made mistakes as bad as Vermeil ever did.

Every record of every GM is mixed. They're mixed positive or negative. If that weren't true every single team would be 8-8.

What I don't see are any real, actual, major mistakes, particularly in 2011. Besides, the wms. stuff was on spags anyway. Spags controls the roster. And that's assuming someone is still upset by Wms (and not, oddly, gratified by Cole, who they got to replace williams).

I think BD did a fine job considering he adopted a pretty terrible situation- and this year and beyond many are gonna see just how good he drafted when guys like Long,JL,Quinn,JS,Saff,Salas and last but certainly not least- Sam- some of these will become probowlers. lets see what they all say then.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with Devaney's ability to bring in players at all. Not at all. Signing free agents wasn't his responsibility, so I can't get behind statements that he didn't go after Vincent Jackson or players of his ilk (even though it wasn't a viable option). Bringing in guys for almost nothing was something we hadn't seen in a long, long time here. Amendola, Alexander, Gibson, Lloyd, etc. Who else thought enough of Amendola (or scouted him) to take a chance on him as a starter? That was pretty good.

2008 is a different story, cause BD wasn't in charge then, but Brown is a Devaney signing. At the time he was signed he was hailed by some as the best lineman in free agency (lineman, not center). He bloody fell apart in 2011, starting with not showing up in shape, and apparently continuing by just not grasping the offense. I dont' think anyone in 2010 thought Brown would fall apart within a year. BD has to take a hit for that obviously (by strict reckoning) but it's not as if it was a controversial signing of a clearly unfit player (see Sehorn).

Mikkel was a good FA. So was Robbins till he tanked, but that was age and injuries. Keeping Hall was brilliant and paid off. Dahl was brilliant and paid off and will continue to pay off. They had a very good long list of receivers they got, as you say, for nothing (DX, Gibson, Robinson, Clayton, Amendola, Lloyd), it's just that injuries ruined that list. There are a number of pick-ups last year who are still around and pushing to make the roster--including Gordy, Burney, Hughes, Mattison, and Cole.

Assessing this is not simple but I don't see "bad." And we HAVE seen bad. They squandered every pick from the ED trade. Ortmeyer was awful, Armey without Vermeil was awful, Martz was awful, Linehan was awful, Zygmunt was awful.

 

[DR RAM]

see if you can find out others that were lost

Jermale Hines, Mikail Baker, Jonathan Nelson, Jabara Williams, Hall Davis and George Selvie come to mind.

I don't care about Gilyard. I don't think he has what it takes to make it in this league. Of course I don't know that for sure, but I just never got the impression that he had a head for the game. Fendi Onobun was a shot in the dark to begin with, and I'm not sure he has the tools to make it either.

Did I miss anyone?

Well, there are a couple more if we want to go there. I think some of the guys you mentioned fit into maybe a different category. But sticking with guys to sneak onto the PS, QB, Thaddeus Lewis kind of started it all. John Greco comes to mind, as well as the young center that they released, who they were grooming, only to have to sign another center a couple weeks later. This was because of injuries.

And again, this is just for sake of argument. I think some of them were mistakes, and a lot were forced by injuries.

I don't know the center you're talking about. Beau Warren maybe? If we don't know his name, I'm pretty sure Jake McQuaide is a better option. And man oh man am I sick of the Thaddeus Lewis loss. Nothing against you, but that's pretty insignificant to me. I liked him and all, but I think the fan base went off the deep end when Cleveland picked him up. Like he was the next Steve McNair or something. I guess it could be construed as a mistake to the casual observer, but I don't know that the rest of the Rams coaching staff thought so. Personally, I'd rather have Clemens or even Brandstater. I just like pocket QBs for some reason.

And yeah, a lot of those losses were going to happen because of injury. So I guess, after having looked at it again, it's not a big deal. I don't think it was a course-derailer to have to get rid of most of those guys. Though, I did (as a casual observer) like Hall Davis and George Selvie. I also think that one big tackle Williams made in preseason was a reason why people hated to see him go. And no, I'm not being facetious. It was a massive tackle.

It was Drew Miller, he was on the PS the year before, then on the active roster last year. I thought he looked like a decent player. Again...I think it was the totality of ALL the youth that was lost, and to keep some of the players that we did (I don't want to drag their names through the dirt again) was a problem for me.

I agree that people went off the deep end with some of the players that were lost.

I admit that Nelson and Williams were the two young players that I liked after studying them on tape. They both made a lot of plays, and very few mistakes. I also like Selvie over Ah You.

 

[DR RAM]

THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT JABARA WILLIAMS! It is about what Billy D. was saying in these interviews and how the team was run, and about mistakes that were admittedly made.

Of course he's going to say mistakes were made. A GM falls on his sword when it's time. If he doesn't he's cruxified for it. (A double Roman reference!)

But that honestly does not mean there WERE any major mistakes actually really made.

Vermeil was the last best Rams personnel guy and he had a long list of failed free agents (Eric Hill? Leslie O'Neal?) plus after round 1 the 99 draft is a wasteland.

BD never made mistakes as bad as Vermeil ever did.

Every record of every GM is mixed. They're mixed positive or negative. If that weren't true every single team would be 8-8.

What I don't see are any real, actual, major mistakes, particularly in 2011. Besides, the wms. [hil]stuff was on spags anyway[/hil]. Spags controls the roster. And that's assuming someone is still upset by Wms (and not, oddly, gratified by Cole, who they got to replace williams).

I think BD did a fine job considering he adopted a pretty terrible situation- and this year and beyond many are gonna see just how good he drafted when guys like Long,JL,Quinn,JS,Saff,Salas and last but certainly not least- Sam- some of these will become probowlers. lets see what they all say then.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with Devaney's ability to bring in players at all. Not at all. Signing free agents wasn't his responsibility, so I can't get behind statements that he didn't go after Vincent Jackson or players of his ilk (even though it wasn't a viable option). Bringing in guys for almost nothing was something we hadn't seen in a long, long time here. Amendola, Alexander, Gibson, Lloyd, etc. Who else thought enough of Amendola (or scouted him) to take a chance on him as a starter? That was pretty good.

2008 is a different story, cause BD wasn't in charge then, but Brown is a Devaney signing. At the time he was signed he was hailed by some as the best lineman in free agency (lineman, not center). He bloody fell apart in 2011, starting with not showing up in shape, and apparently continuing by just not grasping the offense. I dont' think anyone in 2010 thought Brown would fall apart within a year. BD has to take a hit for that obviously (by strict reckoning) but it's not as if it was a controversial signing of a clearly unfit player (see Sehorn).

Mikkel was a good FA. So was Robbins till he tanked, but that was age and injuries. Keeping Hall was brilliant and paid off. Dahl was brilliant and paid off and will continue to pay off. They had a very good long list of receivers they got, as you say, for nothing (DX, Gibson, Robinson, Clayton, Amendola, Lloyd), it's just that injuries ruined that list. There are a number of pick-ups last year who are still around and pushing to make the roster--including Gordy, Burney, Hughes, Mattison, and Cole.

Assessing this is not simple but I don't see "bad." And we HAVE seen bad. They squandered every pick from the ED trade. Ortmeyer was awful, Armey without Vermeil was awful, Martz was awful, Linehan was awful, Zygmunt was awful.

Bingo.

And I agree that not all players are going to pan out, and that every coach and GM makes mistakes. I think Billy D. did a great job finding talent in the lower rounds as well as UDFA's.

I agree that the previous regime was worse to WAY worse.

 

[-X-]

It was Drew Miller, he was on the PS the year before, then on the active roster last year. I thought he looked like a decent player. Again...I think it was the totality of ALL the youth that was lost, and to keep some of the players that we did (I don't want to drag their names through the dirt again) was a problem for me.

I agree that people went off the deep end with some of the players that were lost.

I admit that Nelson and Williams were the two young players that I liked after studying them on tape. They both made a lot of plays, and very few mistakes. I also like Selvie over Ah You.

Oh yeah. Drew Miller. And Greco too - that was peculiar.

We're not different than any other fans of any other team. We all have our favorites, and we all think we have a pretty good grasp of who's good and who's not. There's just so much we're not privy to, and so much we really don't know. It's humbling sometimes if you don't get caught up in being haughty (not you of course. Just speaking in generalities).