An analysis of the quarterback (not insane version)

[PrometheusFaulk]

And it also has to be noted, that BOTH of those QBs are, and will be in an offense where they throw the ball 40+ times EVERY GAME.

I just believe that THIS TEAM, cannot win games doing that.

I don't think your line of thinking is unreasonable but I'm not sure what it's based on. Not if we look at what the Rams did as the season progressed last year.

The last 8 games of the year, Bradford threw the ball 302 times(37.75/game). And that included the game against the Cardinals where he only attempted 17 passes. My point is, they're already attempting 40 passes per game and that's without Cook, Austin, etc.

You don't think they're going to throw it less with those new additions do you? IMO, whatever running game they have is going to be by committee and as a compliment to the passing game. It doesn't mean they won't run the ball but this is going to be a passing team.

With the pass rush and pass defense they have, I would think the Rams would want to score some points and force the opposition to pass the ball. Especially in the West, you don't want Gore and Lynch dominating games. The Rams have already showed they can contain/stop Wilson/Kaepernick better than most.

I would hope that they do have less passing attempts - those 55 against the Vikings, 44 against the Jets and 42 against the Seahawks were not indicative of a positive result. I'd rather games like the 17 you mentioned against Arizona.

 

[Zaphod]

Definitely the most sane QB discussion that I've seen since ... forever.

I personally can't wait to see how Sam handles the decision making aspect with all of the tools in place.

One thing I just can't ignore though is just how inexperienced they are at the skill positions, the offense could have yet one more year, and may yet look disorganized if not hard to predict.

That's why I can't predict an empty backfield too much or a whole lot of shotgun, but I do salivate at the thought of seeing some success from a 2 tight end no huddle offense, which I think we could see this year, and that may tell us a whole lot about how well Sam can direct an offense.

 

[-X-]

Definitely the most sane QB discussion that I've seen since ... forever.

I personally can't wait to see how Sam handles the decision making aspect with all of the tools in place.

One thing I just can't ignore though is just how inexperienced they are at the skill positions, the offense could have yet one more year, and may yet look disorganized if not hard to predict.

That's why I can't predict an empty backfield too much or a whole lot of shotgun, but I do salivate at the thought of seeing some success from a 2 tight end no huddle offense, which I think we could see this year, and that may tell us a whole lot about how well Sam can direct an offense.

That's how we roll at the R. O. D. :yeh:

I think you're right in that the youth and inexperience will be on display early, but I have a lot of faith in Sherman and Schotty to coach these dudes up and put them in the best position to make the most of their God-given abilities. Sure there will be hiccups, but I assume there will be some nice explosive plays to counter them too.

 

[DR RAM]

The thing about sacks that you have to consider IMO, is the down and distance when they happen. To "take" a sack on 3rd down isn't the worst thing that can happen, especially if it's in 3rd and long situation. You have to hold the ball longer to let play develop and you really have nothing to lose trying to make a play.

Now, if you are in FG range, then none of the above applies. Also, if on 1st of 2nd down, then hitting your check down or simply throwing the ball away makes a lot more sense. If you look at the majority of his sacks, on early downs, my guess would be that the pressure comes from up the middle, and he had no other option. Too many of those sacks to count.

[hilite]Another thing he seems to be criticized on unfairly, is the number of "inaccurate" throws along the sidelines. Specifically on the deep fade routes. In many instances, I think he has been coached to "throw it away". Not always, I will be the first to admit, but all too often, fans think every throw that leaves his hand is supposed to be completed, when in, fact he intentionally launches it out of bounds.[/hilite]
Especially with Fishers MO of limiting turnovers, in many cases he just is being coached NOT to force throws. Look at the difference in the 4th qtr. When he has to make plays, he makes throws he doesn't even attempt earlier in the game. So its proof to me that he CAN make them when he has to.

This point has been discussed here in the past, and it's a good one. It is really hard for a fan to tell when a QB as accurate as Bradford just doesn't believe his WR is open enough to catch the ball on some of those fade routes/other routes. It's really frustrating when people think that he ALWAYS misses that throw, or CAN'T complete a deep pass.

I think that Bradford is extremely coachable, and it appears pretty clear to me that so far, all the coaches that he has played for prefer for the offense NOT to lose the game. I say so far, because I think this may change this year through future years because the whole dynamic has changed. Those previous teams HAD to play that way. They depended on the defense and Steven Jackson to keep them close in games, mostly because they knew they didn't have the talent level to compete with 99 % of the teams out there. We had to limit the time that the opponent had the ball.

That has changed, Fisher and Snead have done a freaking amazing job turning over this roster, and bringing in top tier NFL talent. I don't think what is happening is dumb luck, or a mistake. They are building this team around Bradford now. It's no accident that they didn't draft the best RB in this draft. The Steven Jackson days of ground and pound are gone. They are gone for good. Fisher is showing me that he has the ability to change, I think he always has... He uses his talent. The difference here is that he has a big hand on everything that goes on now. This team is being built to the precise model that he's always had in his head.

If our secondary plays well, we will have a top 10 D, easy. Having that will allow us to open it up a little more, and take a few more chances. Developing these young receivers, RB's included, and integrating Cook will be crucial to our offense succeeding, which we all know I think. Bradford will have to be able to have a "go to guy", or guys, and once that trust and timing is developed, then he will probably be encouraged to take more chances, and the percentage of those chances to succeed will be much higher than they were in the past. There is just more talent, more speed, more options, and the best offensive line that Bradford has played behind since his Okie days.

When I study Bradford, there is very little that I can pick apart when I include every situational circumstance in my analysis. In most, not every, case Bradford's negatives are symptoms, or side effects from prior diseases. I think those diseases have been aggressively treated, and will be cured very soon.

We'll all see what happens this year, but I hope that fans realize the extreme youth of these receivers, and that mistakes will be made. Once all of these guys are on the same page, I can't see a single team in the league that can defend us if Bradford has time to go through his progressions. Too much versatility and speed.

I get excited at the beginning of each new year, but this year...forget about it.

 

[CoachO]

And it also has to be noted, that BOTH of those QBs are, and will be in an offense where they throw the ball 40+ times EVERY GAME.

I just believe that THIS TEAM, cannot win games doing that.

I don't think your line of thinking is unreasonable but I'm not sure what it's based on. Not if we look at what the Rams did as the season progressed last year.

The last 8 games of the year, Bradford threw the ball 302 times(37.75/game). And that included the game against the Cardinals where he only attempted 17 passes. My point is, they're already attempting 40 passes per game and that's without Cook, Austin, etc.

You don't think they're going to throw it less with those new additions do you? IMO, whatever running game they have is going to be by committee and as a compliment to the passing game. It doesn't mean they won't run the ball but this is going to be a passing team.

With the pass rush and pass defense they have, I would think the Rams would want to score some points and force the opposition to pass the ball. Especially in the West, you don't want Gore and Lynch dominating games. The Rams have already showed they can contain/stop Wilson/Kaepernick better than most.

I would hope that they do have less passing attempts - those 55 against the Vikings, 44 against the Jets and 42 against the Seahawks were not indicative of a positive result. I'd rather games like the 17 you mentioned against Arizona.

Which is EXACTLY my point. When throw that often, they are NOT successful.

This team still has to win the Time Of Possession, and win the TURNOVER battle to win consistently. Everyone is so geeked up over the likes of Austin, Givens, Quick and Pead/Richardson. But IMO, you are setting yourselves up for major disappointment if you think they are gonna just let it rip. These guys are ALL very young and there will be growing pains. There will be wrong routes, there will be mistakes galore from these guys. So your solution is to just air it out, 40+ times a game and score like the GSOT days? Good luck with that.

As long as Jeff Fisher is the Head Coach, this team with run the ball, not turn it over, and play defense. The biggest improvement will be from having BETTER players making plays when the opportunity presents itself.

I guess what I'm saying is simply this. You now have T. Austin running those underneath/intermediate routes that Amendola was used in before. Is it a safe to assume that he has the potential to break off a huge run after catch, that Amendola just wasn't capable of? You now have Jared Cook running the exact same seam route that they tried (more times than I can count) running with Kendricks. Better, faster, bigger target? BETTER results? I would sure hope so!!!!

Same system, better players, better execution = BETER RESULTS.

 

[PrometheusFaulk]

And it also has to be noted, that BOTH of those QBs are, and will be in an offense where they throw the ball 40+ times EVERY GAME.

I just believe that THIS TEAM, cannot win games doing that.

I don't think your line of thinking is unreasonable but I'm not sure what it's based on. Not if we look at what the Rams did as the season progressed last year.

The last 8 games of the year, Bradford threw the ball 302 times(37.75/game). And that included the game against the Cardinals where he only attempted 17 passes. My point is, they're already attempting 40 passes per game and that's without Cook, Austin, etc.

You don't think they're going to throw it less with those new additions do you? IMO, whatever running game they have is going to be by committee and as a compliment to the passing game. It doesn't mean they won't run the ball but this is going to be a passing team.

With the pass rush and pass defense they have, I would think the Rams would want to score some points and force the opposition to pass the ball. Especially in the West, you don't want Gore and Lynch dominating games. The Rams have already showed they can contain/stop Wilson/Kaepernick better than most.

I would hope that they do have less passing attempts - those 55 against the Vikings, 44 against the Jets and 42 against the Seahawks were not indicative of a positive result. I'd rather games like the 17 you mentioned against Arizona.

Which is EXACTLY my point. When throw that often, they are NOT successful.

This team still has to win the Time Of Possession, and win the TURNOVER battle to win consistently. Everyone is so geeked up over the likes of Austin, Givens, Quick and Pead/Richardson. But IMO, you are setting yourselves up for major disappointment if you think they are gonna just let it rip. These guys are ALL very young and there will be growing pains. There will be wrong routes, there will be mistakes galore from these guys. So your solution is to just air it out, 40+ times a game and score like the GSOT days? Good luck with that.

As long as Jeff Fisher is the Head Coach, this team with run the ball, not turn it over, and play defense. The biggest improvement will be from having BETTER players making plays when the opportunity presents itself.

I guess what I'm saying is simply this. You now have T. Austin running those underneath/intermediate routes that Amendola was used in before. Is it a safe to assume that he has the potential to break off a huge run after catch, that Amendola just wasn't capable of? You now have Jarrod Cook running the exact same seam route that they tried (more times than I can count) running with Kendricks. Better, faster, bigger target? BETTER results? I would sure hope so!!!!

Same system, better players, better execution = BETER RESULTS.

Right - and more often than not the run/pass disparity over the course of a total game is the result of the flow of that game, not the cause. Particularly in the second half, you're not gleaning so much a team's plan for that game but more understanding the adjustments to how the game has gone. So if they're throwing that much they'll probably be trying to get out of a hole.

 

[kurtfaulk]

Here are some stats I dug up. Take them for what they're worth.

NFL rank (top 20)

Bradford in different formations -

3 wide - 9th - 94.3 QB Rating
Shotgun - 20th - 84.0 QB Rating
4 wide - 17th - 81.8 QB Rating
2 wide - Not Ranked

<a class="postlink" href="http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=&type=Passing&range=NFL&rank=224" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/le ... L&rank=224</a>

i think the rams will be using the 2 wide / 2 te formation alot this season. alot.

cook will be like the 3rd wr.

so the rams will plug in whatever two wrs they feel best suits the down/distance/defense.

.

 

[kurtfaulk]

This point has been discussed here in the past, and it's a good one. It is really hard for a fan to tell when a QB as accurate as Bradford just doesn't believe his WR is open enough to catch the ball on some of those fade routes/other routes. It's really frustrating when people think that he ALWAYS misses that throw, or CAN'T complete a deep pass.

I think that Bradford is extremely coachable, and it appears pretty clear to me that so far, all the coaches that he has played for prefer for the offense NOT to lose the game. I say so far, because I think this may change this year through future years because the whole dynamic has changed. Those previous teams HAD to play that way. They depended on the defense and Steven Jackson to keep them close in games, mostly because they knew they didn't have the talent level to compete with 99 % of the teams out there. We had to limit the time that the opponent had the ball.

That has changed, Fisher and Snead have done a freaking amazing job turning over this roster, and bringing in top tier NFL talent. I don't think what is happening is dumb luck, or a mistake. They are building this team around Bradford now. It's no accident that they didn't draft the best RB in this draft. The Steven Jackson days of ground and pound are gone. They are gone for good. Fisher is showing me that he has the ability to change, I think he always has... He uses his talent. The difference here is that he has a big hand on everything that goes on now. This team is being built to the precise model that he's always had in his head.

If our secondary plays well, we will have a top 10 D, easy. Having that will allow us to open it up a little more, and take a few more chances. Developing these young receivers, RB's included, and integrating Cook will be crucial to our offense succeeding, which we all know I think. Bradford will have to be able to have a "go to guy", or guys, and once that trust and timing is developed, then he will probably be encouraged to take more chances, and the percentage of those chances to succeed will be much higher than they were in the past. There is just more talent, more speed, more options, and the best offensive line that Bradford has played behind since his Okie days.

When I study Bradford, there is very little that I can pick apart when I include every situational circumstance in my analysis. In most, not every, case Bradford's negatives are symptoms, or side effects from prior diseases. I think those diseases have been aggressively treated, and will be cured very soon.

We'll all see what happens this year, but I hope that fans realize the extreme youth of these receivers, and that mistakes will be made. Once all of these guys are on the same page, I can't see a single team in the league that can defend us if Bradford has time to go through his progressions. Too much versatility and speed.

I get excited at the beginning of each new year, but this year...forget about it.

i don't know about anyone else but this post just made me feel a little movement.

.

 

[albefree69]

kurtfaulk feeling some intestinal activity:
i don't know about anyone else but this post just made me feel a little movement.

Metamucil or Citrucel. :lol:

 

[moklerman]

And it also has to be noted, that BOTH of those QBs are, and will be in an offense where they throw the ball 40+ times EVERY GAME.

I just believe that THIS TEAM, cannot win games doing that.

I don't think your line of thinking is unreasonable but I'm not sure what it's based on. Not if we look at what the Rams did as the season progressed last year.

The last 8 games of the year, Bradford threw the ball 302 times(37.75/game). And that included the game against the Cardinals where he only attempted 17 passes. My point is, they're already attempting 40 passes per game and that's without Cook, Austin, etc.

You don't think they're going to throw it less with those new additions do you? IMO, whatever running game they have is going to be by committee and as a compliment to the passing game. It doesn't mean they won't run the ball but this is going to be a passing team.

With the pass rush and pass defense they have, I would think the Rams would want to score some points and force the opposition to pass the ball. Especially in the West, you don't want Gore and Lynch dominating games. The Rams have already showed they can contain/stop Wilson/Kaepernick better than most.

I would hope that they do have less passing attempts - those 55 against the Vikings, 44 against the Jets and 42 against the Seahawks were not indicative of a positive result. I'd rather games like the 17 you mentioned against Arizona.

Which is EXACTLY my point. When throw that often, they are NOT successful.

This team still has to win the Time Of Possession, and win the TURNOVER battle to win consistently. Everyone is so geeked up over the likes of Austin, Givens, Quick and Pead/Richardson. But IMO, you are setting yourselves up for major disappointment if you think they are gonna just let it rip. These guys are ALL very young and there will be growing pains. There will be wrong routes, there will be mistakes galore from these guys. So your solution is to just air it out, 40+ times a game and score like the GSOT days? Good luck with that.

As long as Jeff Fisher is the Head Coach, this team with run the ball, not turn it over, and play defense. The biggest improvement will be from having BETTER players making plays when the opportunity presents itself.

I guess what I'm saying is simply this. You now have T. Austin running those underneath/intermediate routes that Amendola was used in before. Is it a safe to assume that he has the potential to break off a huge run after catch, that Amendola just wasn't capable of? You now have Jared Cook running the exact same seam route that they tried (more times than I can count) running with Kendricks. Better, faster, bigger target? BETTER results? I would sure hope so!!!!

Same system, better players, better execution = BETER RESULTS.

I think Fisher's more pliable than that. The days of feeding your workhorse running back 600+ carries are gone and even the thunder and lightning attack they had with CJ and Lendale only really work with a QB that is a threat to run.

There will be a running game but it won't be a run-first/run dominant team IMO. It doesn't make sense considering who they've acquired. I see them going for more of a Saints/Broncos/Patriots approach where they use short passes to substitute for a running game. Situational and opportunistic running rather than pounding it down after down.

I would think Schottenheimer would have some interesting perspective on this. The Jets were exactly what you're talking about and got far, but not over the top. And you have to have a pretty darned good o-line and defense to even get that far. In today's NFL, I think it's far more attainable goal to come up with an effective passing game than it is to carry a team with it's running game.

 

[CoachO]

And it also has to be noted, that BOTH of those QBs are, and will be in an offense where they throw the ball 40+ times EVERY GAME.

I just believe that THIS TEAM, cannot win games doing that.

I don't think your line of thinking is unreasonable but I'm not sure what it's based on. Not if we look at what the Rams did as the season progressed last year.

The last 8 games of the year, Bradford threw the ball 302 times(37.75/game). And that included the game against the Cardinals where he only attempted 17 passes. My point is, they're already attempting 40 passes per game and that's without Cook, Austin, etc.

You don't think they're going to throw it less with those new additions do you? IMO, whatever running game they have is going to be by committee and as a compliment to the passing game. It doesn't mean they won't run the ball but this is going to be a passing team.

With the pass rush and pass defense they have, I would think the Rams would want to score some points and force the opposition to pass the ball. Especially in the West, you don't want Gore and Lynch dominating games. The Rams have already showed they can contain/stop Wilson/Kaepernick better than most.

I would hope that they do have less passing attempts - those 55 against the Vikings, 44 against the Jets and 42 against the Seahawks were not indicative of a positive result. I'd rather games like the 17 you mentioned against Arizona.

Which is EXACTLY my point. When throw that often, they are NOT successful.

This team still has to win the Time Of Possession, and win the TURNOVER battle to win consistently. Everyone is so geeked up over the likes of Austin, Givens, Quick and Pead/Richardson. But IMO, you are setting yourselves up for major disappointment if you think they are gonna just let it rip. These guys are ALL very young and there will be growing pains. There will be wrong routes, there will be mistakes galore from these guys. So your solution is to just air it out, 40+ times a game and score like the GSOT days? Good luck with that.

As long as Jeff Fisher is the Head Coach, this team with run the ball, not turn it over, and play defense. The biggest improvement will be from having BETTER players making plays when the opportunity presents itself.

I guess what I'm saying is simply this. You now have T. Austin running those underneath/intermediate routes that Amendola was used in before. Is it a safe to assume that he has the potential to break off a huge run after catch, that Amendola just wasn't capable of? You now have Jared Cook running the exact same seam route that they tried (more times than I can count) running with Kendricks. Better, faster, bigger target? BETTER results? I would sure hope so!!!!

Same system, better players, better execution = BETER RESULTS.

I think Fisher's more pliable than that. The days of feeding your workhorse running back 600+ carries are gone and even the thunder and lightning attack they had with CJ and Lendale only really work with a QB that is a threat to run.

There will be a running game but it won't be a run-first/run dominant team IMO. It doesn't make sense considering who they've acquired. I see them going for more of a Saints/Broncos/Patriots approach where they use short passes to substitute for a running game. Situational and opportunistic running rather than pounding it down after down.

I would think Schottenheimer would have some interesting perspective on this. The Jets were exactly what you're talking about and got far, but not over the top. And you have to have a pretty darned good o-line and defense to even get that far. In today's NFL, I think it's far more attainable goal to come up with an effective passing game than it is to carry a team with it's running game.

Not once, did I say that they are going to be a "ground and pound" power running game. In fact, I said quite the opposite. With the types of backs they now will count on, I envision the running game becoming more of a "stretch" game, trying to utilize the quickness and get to the edge. I agree that with Pead, they will utilize the swing pass to get him in space. But make no mistake, I just do not think they are all of a sudden going to count on INEXPERIENCED RBs and WRs to suddenly morph into the Patriots/Broncos/Saints. Assuming or EXPECTING them to suddenly become a throw it 40+ times a game type offense is wishful thinking of a lot of "madden" types on other forums.

As far as your commentary about Shottenheimer and the Jets. Sounds like exactly what they have assembled here. An EXPERIENCED O-LINE, and a very good defense. The difference being, the QUARTERBACK. You seem to think that I am saying they will continue to be a 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense. Couldn't be more wrong. All I am saying, is I just don't see the SCHEME changing as much as many here want to believe it will. I just think they will be much improved with better players, and another year in the SAME SYSTEM.

Just will have to agree to disagree, and see how it pans out.