Thought the 4.9 Dawson put in isn't representative of his on-field speed. But I certainly agree. Not many great times from the backers
2015 NFL Combine
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Thought the 4.9 Dawson put in isn't representative of his on-field speed. But I certainly agree. Not many great times from the backers
I don't care about 40 times for LBs.
Vontaze Burfict ran a 5.09 and he's one of the best ILBs in the NFL. It's more important for OLBs, I guess, but it's really not the be all and end all.
The question is how fast to guys play in pads, tired, in the 3rd quarter and the combine doesn't measure that.
"The curve" is what I like to look at. Some guys are super fast at first and dip precipitously. Others may not be as fast, but they maintain their speed through fatigue, with pads and even get faster in pursuit situations. THOSE are the guys who are football players.
Vontaze Burfict ran a 5.09 and he's one of the best ILBs in the NFL. It's more important for OLBs, I guess, but it's really not the be all and end all.
The question is how fast to guys play in pads, tired, in the 3rd quarter and the combine doesn't measure that.
"The curve" is what I like to look at. Some guys are super fast at first and dip precipitously. Others may not be as fast, but they maintain their speed through fatigue, with pads and even get faster in pursuit situations. THOSE are the guys who are football players.
Yep. And unless you fucked up and are chasing a guy from behind, or chasing the QB 30 yards behind the line, you aren't going to be running 40 yards. Your lateral quickness means more, not straight line.
And initial, first step burst.
Shane Ray has elite, first step burst. Doesn't matter what 40 he runs at his pro-day. Getting off the line quicker than the o-line can get up is what makes you money.
Well, as an LB, you also want that speed to beat that RB or running QB to the corner....
Having speed isn't a bad thing, but 40 times, as you mention, don't allow for anticipation, ability to shed blocks, read plays, keep one's feet through trash, etc.
I mean what do you think is the 40 time last year for James Harrison with those bow legs? God love him (I know I do, he's one of my favorite players, both for his hatred of Goodell and how he plays the game), but there's no WAY he runs a sub-5.0 40. Just no way...
And yet... That monster can flat out ball. He's a Skeeery man. He's not as slow Jason Vorhees, but he's about as skeery and you can almost hear the "ki-ki-ki....hu-hu-hu" as he's tracking a ball carrier down. And as hard as he hits, I'm kinda surprised one of them hasn't wet themselves...
That's a long way around saying that for me, 40 times aren't the whole shebang.
Having speed isn't a bad thing, but 40 times, as you mention, don't allow for anticipation, ability to shed blocks, read plays, keep one's feet through trash, etc.
I mean what do you think is the 40 time last year for James Harrison with those bow legs? God love him (I know I do, he's one of my favorite players, both for his hatred of Goodell and how he plays the game), but there's no WAY he runs a sub-5.0 40. Just no way...
And yet... That monster can flat out ball. He's a Skeeery man. He's not as slow Jason Vorhees, but he's about as skeery and you can almost hear the "ki-ki-ki....hu-hu-hu" as he's tracking a ball carrier down. And as hard as he hits, I'm kinda surprised one of them hasn't wet themselves...
That's a long way around saying that for me, 40 times aren't the whole shebang.
Elmgrovegnome
Legend
1. I would like to see a combine test implemented called the gauntlet. They could string together a bunch of drills meant to exhaust and record times at certain intervals to see who really has what when the going gets tough.
2. Bill Polian disagrees with anyone that says 40 times are not indicative of much for certain positions. He claims that through the years his studies continually proved that 40 times were one of the most accurate measures of a players ability at every position, except QB and Kicking. He said even Olinemen and Dlinemen. He also agreed that it does not seem to make sense, but it consistently proved to be true when reviewing 40 times for successful NFL players.
I agree it doesn't make sense........just passing it on.
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I think Vic Beasley cemented himself as a top 5 pick today.
Elmgrovegnome
Legend
Must be why Polian and Al Davis drafted so well since the 2000s.
Well I am not a Polian fan. I agree that he lost his edge long ago. But what he was claiming was according to looking back in review, not as a drafting rule. He never spoke about that part, probably for good reason. He claimed that if you review successful players that they nearly always had good 40 times and he said it indicating that it defied logic. He said it was the most consistent measuring tool.
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JMO but I think it's because people adjust the bar when looking at it on review.
For example, we wouldn't consider a 4.55 40 impressive for a WR but when looking back, I have a feeling they don't chalk that up as a negative. So it's easy to skew the results.
I can say that you can find quite a few productive players at all positions that put up underwhelming and even poor 40 times. I just don't see a strong correlation between the 40 and success. Sure, guys who put up disastrous 40 times and end up being productive aren't common...but I don't think that's saying much.
Elmgrovegnome
Legend
I agree. To prove his point Polian would have to present the evidence of his study. Without that we have no way of knowing exactly how strict or loose his parameters were. If I were to guess, like you say, they must be loose. If they were strict Polian would rarely miss on a pick.
Polian was a very successful GM at one time, putting together some very good teams, over a decade. I would like to know how he went from being consistently very good to consistently bad. Did he lose key personnel, like scouts that aided his decisions, did he just lose his eye for talent? Did he try to get too cute? Or was he like a gambler that lost his mojo and took bigger risks to get it back? Or was it simply that he built great teams by picking at the top of each round and then as the teams prospered and the selection slots got worse, he simply couldn't identify standout talent without the benefit of top ten picks any better than the next guy?
Don't forget his greatest role:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...es-obliterates-the-combine-broad-jump-record/
Byron Jones obliterates the Combine broad jump record
Posted by Michael David Smith on February 23, 2015
Never in the history of the Scouting Combine had anyone broad-jumped 12 feet. Until today.
Byron Jones, a cornerback from UConn, had a 12-foot, 3-inch broad jump this morning, shattering the old record of 11 feet, 7 inches.
That’s an insanely good broad jump — so good that it might be the best broad jump in human history. The standing long jump is rarely performed in competitive settings and hasn’t been an Olympic event in 100 years, so it’s hard to find reliable records for it. But Wikipedia lists the world record as 3.71 meters, which would be 12 feet, 2 inches.
Bills receiver Marquise Goodwin was an Olympic long jumper, and he broad jumped 11 feet, 0 inches at the 2013 Combine. Beating an Olympic long jumper by more than a foot in the broad jump is just insane.
The 6-foot-1, 199-pound Jones also put up a 44.5-inch vertical jump, which is just half an inch away from the best vertical at this year’s Combine. Although Jones wasn’t viewed as a great prospect heading into today, he is causing eyebrows to raise and jaws to drop this morning. NFL teams are surely taking notice that they’ve got a freakish athlete on their hands.
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Byron Jones breaks Combine broad jump record
UConn CB Byron Jones broke the Combine record in the broad jump with a measurement of 12'3".
The former record was 11'7", held by Jamie Collins and Chris Conley. That is ridiculous. Jones wasn't even a sure thing to compete at the Combine due to a labrum injury, We have yet to see his movement skills, but press coverage teams will like the 6'1" 199 lbs corner just because of the measurables.
Feb 23 - 11:17 AM
UConn CB Byron Jones broke the Combine record in the broad jump with a measurement of 12'3".
The former record was 11'7", held by Jamie Collins and Chris Conley. That is ridiculous. Jones wasn't even a sure thing to compete at the Combine due to a labrum injury, We have yet to see his movement skills, but press coverage teams will like the 6'1" 199 lbs corner just because of the measurables.
Feb 23 - 11:17 AM
He didn't just break the record, he obliterated the record by 8 inches. That's insane.
