11 personnel podcast with a very fair assessment on both sides of Goff/Mcvay

[Elmgrovegnome]

So it's all goff fault and mcvay holds no responsibility? Yea that's bs and couldn't disagree more.

So you would rather the Rams continued with Goff and the same limited playbook instead of being able to unleash the offense and have to its fullest potential. Got it!

 

[Giles]

So you would rather the Rams continued with Goff and the same limited playbook instead of being able to unleash the offense and have to its fullest potential. Got it!

I would rather fix the problems mcvays created by not resigning saffold, not upgrading the center position, and not replacing cooks (who mcvay also wanted btw). None of those things are on goff and yet mcvay gets a pass while goff takes 100% of the blame according to you which is complete bs. I'm all for stafford and think he's a good qb but I'm a little skeptical thinking he's gonna accomplish what goff did in the 5 years he was here. Point is mcvay is just as responsible as goff for the offense going in the opposite direction and the people who think otherwise didn't like goff from the get go.

 

[I like Rams]

Just a quick thought, but we all seem to put the blame on either Goff or McVay. We did bring in an OC this season instead of it being all on McVay for the offense. Yet hes like the middle child that everyone forgets. If neither him nor McVay can come up with an offense where Goff can succeed, then what do you do? This problem is obviously more intricate than just between McVay and Goff.

 

[badnews]

So you would rather the Rams continued with Goff and the same limited playbook instead of being able to unleash the offense and have to its fullest potential. Got it!

Well that perspective assumes the offense remained the same between when Goff was good enough to when he wasn't and that the reason the offense stopped being effective is because Goff stopped being effective.
The problem with that has been described ad nauseum. Goffs play wasn't in a vacuum. McVays offense and the players on it both have trended in the opposite direction of "more explosive plays".
When a team loses its two most explosive players on offense and replaces them with average players, you're going to be less explosive. If you change your scheme to be a dink and dunk safety first offense, no longer "trusting" the QB to attempt even typical intermediate 3rd down pass attempts (that he has been been effective at) when its obvious that it's the O-line that can rarely hold up on any known passing down, not to mention the lack of speed to seperate outside, - and then lay it all on Jared and his inability to make explosive plays happen.... it cause even some of McVay's biggest fans to roll their eyes IMHO.

All that needed to be said is we thank Jared for his time here. We want to go in a different direction and we believe Stafford is the guy we need.
That would have been such a better way for this to go but when we get into claims like the regression of our offense was Jareds fault. There were PLENTY of factors.

Staffords the guy they want? Great. Get him. See if it works. Unload Goff, trade him and picks - whatever. Those are football moves - I may or may not agree with the cost but I can't complain about the way the team handled it - just don't ask me to buy into this other crap like "the desire to be more explosive" in order to justify it.

 

[Ellard80]

Well that perspective assumes the offense remained the same between when Goff was good enough to when he wasn't and that the reason the offense stopped being effective is because Goff stopped being effective.
The problem with that has been described ad nauseum. Goffs play wasn't in a vacuum. McVays offense and the players on it both have trended in the opposite direction of "more explosive plays".
When a team loses its two most explosive players on offense and replaces them with average players, you're going to be less explosive. If you change your scheme to be a dink and dunk safety first offense, no longer "trusting" the QB to attempt even typical intermediate 3rd down pass attempts (that he has been been effective at) when its obvious that it's the O-line that can rarely hold up on any known passing down, not to mention the lack of speed to seperate outside, - and then lay it all on Jared and his inability to make explosive plays happen.... it cause even some of McVay's biggest fans to roll their eyes IMHO.

All that needed to be said is we thank Jared for his time here. We want to go in a different direction and we believe Stafford is the guy we need.
That would have been such a better way for this to go but when we get into claims like the regression of our offense was Jareds fault. There were PLENTY of factors.

Staffords the guy they want? Great. Get him. See if it works. Unload Goff, trade him and picks - whatever. Those are football moves - I may or may not agree with the cost but I can't complain about the way the team handled it - just don't ask me to buy into this other crap like "the desire to be more explosive" in order to justify it.

But they haven't said anythign about the trade... because they are not allowed to until it goes through - also when have you ever heard mcvay say anything about how "the offense has regressed because of goff"

Never happened.

 

[Ellard80]

I would rather fix the problems mcvays created by not resigning saffold, not upgrading the center position, and not replacing cooks (who mcvay also wanted btw). None of those things are on goff and yet mcvay gets a pass while goff takes 100% of the blame according to you which is complete bs. I'm all for stafford and think he's a good qb but I'm a little skeptical thinking he's gonna accomplish what goff did in the 5 years he was here. Point is mcvay is just as responsible as goff for the offense going in the opposite direction and the people who think otherwise didn't like goff from the get go.

Mcvay bears responsibility of course - it's his offense and team. Just as Goff deserves credit for its success.

This team (and Goff) we're pure shit until Mcvay Arrived.

I have a really hard time coming to the conclusion that Mcvay is "just as much to blame"

As time goes on we will see what happens.

 

[yrba1]

Another interesting analogy Jourdan Rodrigue made is that the Rams FO is approaching these bold moves like Icarus: fly too close to the sun and you'll burn back down to earth; for the Rams case, get risky with these trades too often and if it bites you in the ass, Rams are gonna be in the ninth level of Dante's cap hell

 

[FarNorth]

So you would rather the Rams continued with Goff and the same limited playbook instead of being able to unleash the offense and have to its fullest potential. Got it!

Imo the obvious limitations of the offense were responsible for the limited playbook. The narrative that it all was due to Goff can't be squared with his performance in 2017 and 2018. You can't "unleash" an offense with poor blocking up the middle, poor pass protection, no deep threats, a predictable short passing game, and no effective red zone offense.

Could a qb such as Stafford with a quicker release, stronger arm, or different awareness in the pocket have done significantly better, for example by going deeper in the playoffs? We may find out the hard way if the Rams don't improve the offense around Stafford.

The good news is that Cam Akers should contribute a lot more going forward and that alone will help the play action passing game. But imo a lot more is still needed to bring the offense up to speed.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I would rather fix the problems mcvays created by not resigning saffold, not upgrading the center position, and not replacing cooks (who mcvay also wanted btw). None of those things are on goff and yet mcvay gets a pass while goff takes 100% of the blame according to you which is complete bs. I'm all for stafford and think he's a good qb but I'm a little skeptical thinking he's gonna accomplish what goff did in the 5 years he was here. Point is mcvay is just as responsible as goff for the offense going in the opposite direction and the people who think otherwise didn't like goff from the get go.

I was all for drafting Goff. I stood by him until the Miami game when I cooled a bit. I even expected him to be the QB next year. But I know Stafford can do more and is a better QB. I believe what Jourdan Rodrigue reported on her podcast too.

But to your point. Someone felt Noteboom was ready to replace Saffold. I didn’t like it, but those things happen. Cooks had concussion problems and for what he was getting paid he missed a lot of time and one more hit could have ended his career. He also was making mental mistakes in games. It was time to move on. From all accounts Van Jefferson is capable of being a deep threat but Goff rarely looked his way. Plus the offense was pared down to help Goff out by simplifying the offense.

What you keep missing in all of this is that the offense as it was when Goff was flourishing was done. McVay sending in plays pre snap was defeated by late defensive shifts. Shifts that Goff could not counter consistently. Goff became a single read QB. He’s a slow processor. Plus he cannot feel nor react to the pass rush well. All of that was preventing the Rams offense from being what McVay wanted it to be and what he feels that it needs to be to win a Super Bowl. In the end its a business. Do you expect McVay to stake his professional reputation on a limited QB, while he feels he has a Super Bowl roster? He runs the show. If he thought that there was an easier fix In sure he would have preferred it.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Well that perspective assumes the offense remained the same between when Goff was good enough to when he wasn't and that the reason the offense stopped being effective is because Goff stopped being effective.
The problem with that has been described ad nauseum. Goffs play wasn't in a vacuum. McVays offense and the players on it both have trended in the opposite direction of "more explosive plays".
When a team loses its two most explosive players on offense and replaces them with average players, you're going to be less explosive. If you change your scheme to be a dink and dunk safety first offense, no longer "trusting" the QB to attempt even typical intermediate 3rd down pass attempts (that he has been been effective at) when its obvious that it's the O-line that can rarely hold up on any known passing down, not to mention the lack of speed to seperate outside, - and then lay it all on Jared and his inability to make explosive plays happen.... it cause even some of McVay's biggest fans to roll their eyes IMHO.

All that needed to be said is we thank Jared for his time here. We want to go in a different direction and we believe Stafford is the guy we need.
That would have been such a better way for this to go but when we get into claims like the regression of our offense was Jareds fault. There were PLENTY of factors.

Staffords the guy they want? Great. Get him. See if it works. Unload Goff, trade him and picks - whatever. Those are football moves - I may or may not agree with the cost but I can't complain about the way the team handled it - just don't ask me to buy into this other crap like "the desire to be more explosive" in order to justify it.

I’m sure McVay will note your disdain

 

[1maGoh]

yeah for sure... that is a factor. But I also think the accuracy has declined (on deep hits)

Overall I thought his accuracy was great on most of the throws he was asked to take...but it seemed the medium to longish routes the accuracy was up and down... especially more down on the 20 yard plus... although we didn't attempt a lot of them.

You say his accuracy on deep hits declined. Why do you think that is? Generally speaking, people don't just get spontaneously worse at things they used to be pretty good at.

Here's an article with the meat colored charts on accuracy/passer rating from 2019 compared to 2018.

Jared Goff's 2019 passing chart raises red flags about deep ball

Jared Goff’s alarming regression on deep passes can be seen clearly on this chart.

theramswire.usatoday.com

He was pretty damn good at deep balls in 2018 and 2017.

So given that you say he declined and that he used to be pretty good at deep balls, what's your theory for the cause of the decline?

EDIT: Mother loving typos!

 

[Ellard80]

You say his accuracy on deep hits declined. Why do you think that is? Generally speaking, people don't just get spontaneously wise at things they used to be pretty good at.

Here's an article with the meat colored charts on accuracy/passer rating from 2019 compared to 2018.

Jared Goff's 2019 passing chart raises red flags about deep ball

Jared Goff’s alarming regression on deep passes can be seen clearly on this chart.

theramswire.usatoday.com

He was pretty damn good at deep balls in 2018 and 2017.

So given that you say he declined and that he used to be pretty good at deep balls, what's your theory for the cause of the decline?

Honestly I don't really truly, know why... as none of us really do.

He has a + arm and I've seen him hit some nice deep balls... however even when he was successful with those hits - i never really thought that was his strength - he overthrew the deep ball often. I remember him air mailing Everett many times... this year he missed higbee like 3 times.. he was bad on the wheel route to akers and hendo (wolford finally hit that pass).

Here is my best educated guess?

1. in 2017/2018 mcvay's offense was new so the defense was getting caught more times than it is now.
2. Gurley was dominant and the teams had to respect him (however even without gurley teams play us the same way - crowed teh line and try to make Goff beat us, even when he was doing better they did that).
3. Watkins and Cooks were better deep targets (but he had cooks in 2019 and declined)
4. The Oline was poor last year - which lead to a partial focus on shorter passing this year.
5. I think Goff has lost confidence over time.
6. Athletes have ups and downs all the time - declines and rises happen without any other reason than what's going on in between the ears of the player.

So in a nutshell its a combination of outside factors and a loss of confidence fromn cummlative/gradual lack of success.

 

[1maGoh]

Honestly I don't really truly, know why... as none of us really do.

He has a + arm and I've seen him hit some nice deep balls... however even when he was successful with those hits - i never really thought that was his strength - he overthrew the deep ball often. I remember him air mailing Everett many times... this year he missed higbee like 3 times.. he was bad on the wheel route to akers and hendo (wolford finally hit that pass).

Here is my best educated guess?

1. in 2017/2018 mcvay's offense was new so the defense was getting caught more times than it is now.
2. Gurley was dominant and the teams had to respect him (however even without gurley teams play us the same way - crowed teh line and try to make Goff beat us, even when he was doing better they did that).
3. Watkins and Cooks were better deep targets (but he had cooks in 2019 and declined)
4. The Oline was poor last year - which lead to a partial focus on shorter passing this year.
5. I think Goff has lost confidence over time.
6. Athletes have ups and downs all the time - declines and rises happen without any other reason than what's going on in between the ears of the player.

So in a nutshell its a combination of outside factors and a loss of confidence from lack of success.

The first part is hilarious. The second part with the list is fair.

Thanks for answering. I'm just looking for discussion, not trying to shit on anybody.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Imo the obvious limitations of the offense were responsible for the limited playbook. The narrative that it all was due to Goff can't be squared with his performance in 2017 and 2018. You can't "unleash" an offense with poor blocking up the middle, poor pass protection, no deep threats, a predictable short passing game, and no effective red zone offense.

Could a qb such as Stafford with a quicker release, stronger arm, or different awareness in the pocket have done significantly better, for example by going deeper in the playoffs? We may find out the hard way if the Rams don't improve the offense around Stafford.

The good news is that Cam Akers should contribute a lot more going forward and that alone will help the play action passing game. But imo a lot more is still needed to bring the offense up to speed.

If they get a better center it will fix a lot. But how do you explain Goff rarely throwing to Van Jefferson when Wolford had no problem finding him and getting him the ball. It’s not like Van didn’t practice with Goff at all. And what about Goff’s poor pocket presence. He rarely senses a pass rush. McVay said in press conferences that he is not seeing the field. It’s obvious on all 22 that he wasn’t seeing open receivers. I just listened to the 11 personnel podcast last night. I recommend that you listen to it. Jourdan gets her info from inside the building. She’s not making it up as she goes.

Goff can only take the team so far . McVay felt that he stopped progressing, while changes needed to be made and felt from what he saw from Goff that he was not capable of what needs to be done. I feel comfortable thinking McVay knows enough about what he asks for from Goff and what he sees happening on the field to think this trade was justified. I think we will see the results and be very happy next season.

 

[JRobinson]

Two things:

1. Jourdan is a star reporter, the Athletic would be wise to compensate her well. Rich is basically a color guy who I agree with at times, but definitely not always by any stretch.

2. Goff’s “LA Farwell” was as classy as it gets. He really brought us som great years and for that I’m very thankful.

 

[FarNorth]

If they get a better center it will fix a lot. But how do you explain Goff rarely throwing to Van Jefferson when Wolford had no problem finding him and getting him the ball. It’s not like Van didn’t practice with Goff at all. And what about Goff’s poor pocket presence. He rarely senses a pass rush. McVay said in press conferences that he is not seeing the field. It’s obvious on all 22 that he wasn’t seeing open receivers. I just listened to the 11 personnel podcast last night. I recommend that you listen to it. Jourdan gets her info from inside the building. She’s not making it up as she goes.

Goff can only take the team so far . McVay felt that he stopped progressing, while changes needed to be made and felt from what he saw from Goff that he was not capable of what needs to be done. I feel comfortable thinking McVay knows enough about what he asks for from Goff and what he sees happening on the field to think this trade was justified. I think we will see the results and be very happy next season.

With respect to Goff not throwing to Jefferson, maybe you saw something I overlooked. What's clear is that VJ just didn't get that many snaps over the course of the year until the playoffs. (According to some site called footballguys.com, VJ had 256 snaps during the season compared to 803, 842, and 1000 for Reynolds, Kupp and Woods. https://subscribers.footballguys.com/teams/teampage-ram-6.php). I would assume he didn't play because his blocking needed work, but that's speculation.

I don't doubt that Jourdan is reporting info from inside the building, and that McVay was disappointed in Goff and had some reason to be. But my view is that McVay is also responsible for the relative lack of success of the offense, and to his credit he has sometimes acknowledged that.

I think the 2020 offense with its personnel (and injuries) had a limited ceiling even if Goff had played as well as in 2017 and 2018, and would have even if Stafford had been the qb. I frankly see McVay as having painted himself into a corner with his own offense, and then focusing on Stafford as a catalyst for his creativity and a way to rework his scheme and playcalling.

I don't fault McVay for shaking things up. Something had to change. I hope trading for Stafford is the answer. I've warmed up to his arm, playmaking ability, and competitiveness.

It's now up to McVay to make the offense work with Stafford. I expect changes in the offense. I'm ready to be optimistic, but this is not a sure thing. We'll see what happens...

 

[Merlin]

Two things:

1. Jourdan is a star reporter, the Athletic would be wise to compensate her well. Rich is basically a color guy who I agree with at times, but definitely not always by any stretch.

2. Goff’s “LA Farwell” was as classy as it gets. He really brought us som great years and for that I’m very thankful.

Yeah I really appreciate the energy she has in doing her job. There's a lot of folks going through the motions in sports coverage. She really goes the extra distance and fans notice it.

 

[PressureD41]

Ya she's a stud. Huge fan