11 personnel podcast with a very fair assessment on both sides of Goff/Mcvay

[FarNorth]

Id say goff has plus accuracy on short passes.

intermediate he is average.

Deep he isnt very good.

Which is why McVay tried to design a short passing game to use that talent.

I thought he was pretty good in 2017 and 2018. But we haven't had a real deep threat, even on deep cuts across the middle, since Cooks was injured and then traded. And poor blocking in the middle doesn't help a qb like Goff who strides into deep throws. Maybe Stafford can throw deep better from small pockets or while moving backwards or sideways.

 

[Merlin]

And there's no guarantees, although some of our enthusiastic posters may think otherwise.

Rams still badly need an upgrade at center and one or more deep threats. Receivers who can go up and get the ball and then come down with it. Not Reynolds and Everett. The run game has to work well enough to get play action going again, though Akers may solve that if he can stay on the field. The red zone offense needs to be entirely reworked.

But imo McVay also needs to reimagine the offense to work to Stafford's strengths of experience, big arm, and playmaking ability. It's partly better plays, but it's also giving Stafford more latitude in calling the plays and who he throws the ball to. I don't think Stafford will thrive in a micromanaged system, or one with all kinds of elaborate motion, which he apparently dislikes. Running the offense we used with Goff would probably make his head explode.

The good news is that McVay apparently started getting new ideas watching film of Stafford. Hopefully the two of them are working on new approaches over margaritas in Cabo. Hopefully this will morph into something dynamic.

You have a lot packaged in there. Some of it I agree with some I don't but the Rams don't run a micromanaged system. Part of the reason Goff is gone is because McVay wants more from the position. Not less.

You don't trade a ton of picks for Stafford and then limit him. And him being sound on the basics means McVay can use that time he has for more detailed shit. I'm certain that like Goff he'll be able to change plays at the LOS and probably will have a lot of options.

Really the big concern right now for me is all about the cap and how many positions will be weaker than normal on our roster. I don't think Pat Kirwan is right about us needing a chunk of UDFAs to field a full roster but still.

 

[HellRam]

I'm curious to see what they do now. The basic premise of McVays scheme hasn't really changed. We've just seen a few wrinkles added in but nothing I would deem impressive. Our 22nd ranked scoring offense would allude to that. Obviously we will be seeing changes I would assume. But are we talking more tweeks to the scheme or a major overhaul? My biggest complaint about McVays offense was the lack of diversity and lack of implementating more to your players stregnths and less of having this robotic system we run.

 

[CGI_Ram]

We will watch from afar how Goff does in a new offense. McVay in his ear up to 15 seconds, QB expectations in calls, etc... the fresh start there could be very good for him.

The “see it, throw it” comment predraft is interesting as that seems to line up with his success on rollouts.

The other comment that caught my eye, and I tend to agree with.... “Rich says that there's no way that you can convince him that a guy like Mcvay couldn't figure out how to use Goff at all.”

My first thought was yeah... problem between these two sounds personal.

But... maybe it’s as simple as McVay knows he can win with Goff, and obviously thats what he’s been doing... but he wants the game day options wider when stuff isn’t working. A broader skill set in a game of inches.

 

[kurtfaulk]

.

my only assessment is, career wise, this is the best thing that could happen to goff. he needs to escape from mcvay's shadow. he will never get any credit for anything he does if he has mcvay standing over him.

of course he has to put in the work and play well for the lions. it's all up to him. but at least moving forward if he plays well he won't have to hear about how mcvay is a genius anymore.

for mcvay, the whole field is open again with stafford at qb. looking forward to seeing it all evolve.

.

 

[TexasRam]

We will watch from afar how Goff does in a new offense. McVay in his ear up to 15 seconds, QB expectations in calls, etc... the fresh start there could be very good for him.

The “see it, throw it” comment predraft is interesting as that seems to line up with his success on rollouts.

The other comment that caught my eye, and I tend to agree with.... “Rich says that there's no way that you can convince him that a guy like Mcvay couldn't figure out how to use Goff at all.”

My first thought was yeah... problem between these two sounds personal.

But... maybe it’s as simple as McVay knows he can win with Goff, and obviously thats what he’s been doing... but he wants the game day options wider when stuff isn’t working. A broader skill set in a game of inches.

It’s possible. The crazy thing is Mcvay in my opinion even blames himself for things that are not his fault but are Oline/TE blocking issues, such as the goaline problems.

I mean the offense had little trouble moving chains relative to the rest of the league. If Goff plays he Cardinals game he finishes likely with 4600 yards passing which is somewhere around #6 in the NFL and where Aaron Rodgers finished. I'm not going to excuse Goff for all the fumbles but the real problem and big difference the last few years was the red zone running. We can show replay after replay, even when Wolford was in of this problem with Higbee, Everett and the Oline unable to execute and win the point of attack. Mcvay really was stressing about this and saying in the pressers that he has to be better down there. No he doesn't, he needs to beef up the blocking including the TE's that were getting blown up.

Now clearly Mcvay saw a way out of this puzzle he couldn't solve with Wolford. Not only in the red zone but on third and long and also just forcing the defense to be aware of the QB run which opens up passing lanes as well. But we saw with Wolford that the same problems existed even when Wolford tried to run around the right side from the 1 yard line. Blocking blew up. Higbee Blown up etc.

I do believe Mcvay is searching hard for answers and if nothing else Stafford might be a better option then Goff for vertical throws and mobility options but I hope he sees that the greatest gains are more blocking related. Given, Everett will be gone and Higbee played hurt a large part of the year, so we could see improvements there. But I am going to cringe if he doesn't get that interior line beefed up and expects a mostly similar QB and evolved play calls to make that much of a difference.

You can scheme up genius play calls all day but without the blocking and execution it makes no difference.

 

[HellRam]

.

my only assessment is, career wise, this is the best thing that could happen to goff. he needs to escape from mcvay's shadow. he will never get any credit for anything he does if he has mcvay standing over him.

of course he has to put in the work and play well for the lions. it's all up to him. but at least moving forward if he plays well he won't have to hear about how mcvay is a genius anymore.

for mcvay, the whole field is open again with stafford at qb. looking forward to seeing it all evolve.

.

Good post. While I have my doubts of how much a upgrade Stafford really will be. I'll still cheer on my Rams. Goff was one of my favorites so this one hurt.

For the sake of my sanity Rams don't let this bite us in the ass.

 

[TexasRam]

Jourdan is full of shit. A fucking hack journalist! Things like contracts don't happen in a vacuum. McVay wanted to throw more vertical. Dumb as fuck! You seriously really want to tell me McVay and Snead and the rest of the assts/QB coach didnt watch every practice, every game and have every metric broken down on Goff before they made the contract they did? lazy journalism especially since she works for the Rams. So what MAGICALLY changed?

What changed was Snead/McVay replenished most every area except the OL/speed wr. Goff had NO problem throwing deep all the time prior to '18 season. We lead the league on offense at 32+ ppg 17/18 seasons. This past year we were under 24 ppg why you really think that's Goff fault well it wasn't. When the team offered a huge contract 2 years did you all hear me 2 years early when we didn't need to but McVay/Snead did. They are responsible for the offense decline. They are to blame. They Never replaced Saffold, Whit is old the rest of the OL are terrible in pass pro. The run game was hit or miss, the TEs were non existent hardly. Reynolds never improved. Stupid draft pick in Van Jefferson. He was at best a 3rd wr so why take a 3rd WR in the 2nd. We had to throw short passes all the time, because Goff had no pass pro, he constantly had to roll out or scramble for his life.

That's the truth...Jourdans truth is she should be fired! Weak hack of a reporter. Get a new career because you really suck at this one.

I hear you loud and clear and completely agree on these points.

The microcosm of what the offense dealt with the last two years can be seen on the drive at the end vs the Packers when the offense stalled at the end.

1. Short run for minimal gain.
2. Dropped pass by Reynolds right in his hands for the would be first down.
3. Drop back pass -Evans completely whiffs on his DT, Goff sacked immediately with no chance.

Game, set, match. Supporting cast failed. Reynolds and Evans. Snead/Mcvay picks who have had several years in the system.

Could have picked an Olineman in RD 2 instead of Jefferson who is looking like a 3rd WR talent.

But regarding Jourdan, She is a nice girl but being a hack. It's like listening to fake news trying to explain to you some revisionist story. I am not being political here either, both sides do it. But I want to just say STFU. We are not stupid. We watched every game the last four years and don't need some Karen to come and sell us a load of crap about what reality is.

She will get Brownie point with the Rams and her Career for sucking up and being a yes man (Woman) doing the dirty work, but its pretty transparent bullshit she selling that I ain't buying.

You Identified in your post exactly why. It's the 4 year real history rather than this spin doctor stuff.

So Thanks for pointing out the real history rather than accepting it from some Karen come lately drinking her Latte.

They had two years of tape on Goff but apparently only gave him 110 million in guaranteed because they had some extra chump change laying around. Yea ok.

At a minimum she could have did some actual journalism and asked why there was such a monumental mistake to give him so much of Kroenke's money and set the organization back with having to sell off their 21/22 drafts to recover and who should own that mistake.

Or a probing question all of us want to know. Do you regret not addressing the Oline in the draft considering the blocking struggles this year. Do you plan to address it this offseason or are you good there?

That's journalism.

 

[I like Rams]

All of our problems on offense started with the Detroit game in 2018 after KC. They came up with a defensive strategy that gave our O fits, and other teams followed suit. Alot of disguises on D that Goff obviously could not figure out. I see this as McVay wanting a qb that can read defenses better, better ball security and better pocket awareness.

People get after the FO for giving Goff a contract, but imagine if we didnt. We wait a year and then have to compete with Watsons and Mahomes contract, if hes worth it. Can we afford to compete with the contracts? If we find out hes not, who replaces him? A high first round draft choice? FA? I think we leave ourselves in a deeper hole if we dont sign him than if we did. But that's my opinion.

 

[Oregonram]

This type of narrative where broad generalizations of QB are made is nothing new. I could literally give hundreds of examples where Goff had incredible processing speed and multiple reads while in that same week show you so called top QB's that didn't.

How was Wilson's read when he threw the Pick to Williams in the end zone or the one on the sideline?

How was Brady's read when he threw the interception way over the head of his WR right into the hands of Fuller in the biggest moment of the game?

How was Rodgers processing or read when he threw into 2 defenders instead of running the ball into the end zone vs the Bucs?

Generalizations aren't valid arguments.

Kurt Warner had a 5 year span where he threw 29 TD and 30 Interceptions.

Wilson had a 5 game stretch where he was the worst QB in the NFL turnover wise.

The examples are endless.

It's not always the QB, it's often the surrounding cast, injuries, play calling, defenses faced, strength of running game etc.

Goff has his limitations. No one denies that. His vertical pass sucked this year, his mobility is limited.

If you ever played the QB position you know that processing and reads go out the window when a DT is crashing down on you at the snap, but it doesn't just affect that play. It forces quicker processing and limits reads for a QB until he feels he has time to actually have a second in the pocket to go through his progressions.

Goff is simply not a QB that can consistently extend plays when things are constantly breaking down, like Mahomes, Wilson and Rodgers can. But neither could Brady or Manning or Aikman or Marino or Brees or Ryan or many other successful QB's.

It's the job of the coach to understand what kind of QB he has and evolve likewise, not the other way around.

Goff didn't have erratic questionable play in the biggest moment when playoffs came around such as Brady (3 int), Josh Allen, Wilson and Lamar Jackson who scored a total of 0 points when it mattered most.

But no mention of that because, ya know, gotta keep with a narrative here.

I cannot disagree with you on these points. Sean will get a chance to run things a little differently with Stafford. If that doesn’t materialize, Sean’s seat will get a little warmer

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

This type of narrative where broad generalizations of QB are made is nothing new. I could literally give hundreds of examples where Goff had incredible processing speed and multiple reads while in that same week show you so called top QB's that didn't.

How was Wilson's read when he threw the Pick to Williams in the end zone or the one on the sideline?

How was Brady's read when he threw the interception way over the head of his WR right into the hands of Fuller in the biggest moment of the game?

How was Rodgers processing or read when he threw into 2 defenders instead of running the ball into the end zone vs the Bucs?

Generalizations aren't valid arguments.

Kurt Warner had a 5 year span where he threw 29 TD and 30 Interceptions.

Wilson had a 5 game stretch where he was the worst QB in the NFL turnover wise.

The examples are endless.

It's not always the QB, it's often the surrounding cast, injuries, play calling, defenses faced, strength of running game etc.

Goff has his limitations. No one denies that. His vertical pass sucked this year, his mobility is limited.

If you ever played the QB position you know that processing and reads go out the window when a DT is crashing down on you at the snap, but it doesn't just affect that play. It forces quicker processing and limits reads for a QB until he feels he has time to actually have a second in the pocket to go through his progressions.

Goff is simply not a QB that can consistently extend plays when things are constantly breaking down, like Mahomes, Wilson and Rodgers can. But neither could Brady or Manning or Aikman or Marino or Brees or Ryan or many other successful QB's.

It's the job of the coach to understand what kind of QB he has and evolve likewise, not the other way around.

Goff didn't have erratic questionable play in the biggest moment when playoffs came around such as Brady (3 int), Josh Allen, Wilson and Lamar Jackson who scored a total of 0 points when it mattered most.

But no mention of that because, ya know, gotta keep with a narrative here.

In 2018 the first thing the Lions did, then the Bears did even better was to change the defense once McVays mic cut out. They also brought extra rushers and played coverage, taking away the go to routes. Goff never adjusted. McVay’’s offense was figured out and it was because Goff couldn’t read defenses and couldn’t process fast enough when defenses adjusted. McVaysoffense was suddenly easy to stop.

Goff worked on it in the offseason but in 2019 he still couldn’t handle it. So we saw McVay simplify the offense. The rollouts were to reduce the field to make it easier for Goff to process. But once teams adjusted they realized that the new look was easy to stop.

It’s all on Goff. He never evolved. He needs a perfect Oline to function. That cannot be counted on every season. He didn’t move the picket, he didnt Change his position and reset to make better throws. Hours an had a good point. It wasn’t even the interceptions that bothered McVay. It was how and why they happened. The locker room was behind Wolford last season more than it was behind Goff because he could do all of those things required of the QB and he worked his butt off. Stafford does those things naturally. If they didn’t trade for Stafford, then next year Wolford would be the likely starter. Listen to her 11 personnel podcast. It’s an hour long but you will learn a lot about the situation. Many things she said are things some of us started speculating about.So w were not imagining what we were seeing. Even bitching about McVay’s play calls. He felt limited by Goff’s limitations. He couldn’t open the playbook.

 

[dieterbrock]

Gurley was suspiciously not the same after that Detroit game as well, and as Gurley went, so did the offense

 

[Ellard80]

I thought he was pretty good in 2017 and 2018. But we haven't had a real deep threat, even on deep cuts across the middle, since Cooks was injured and then traded. And poor blocking in the middle doesn't help a qb like Goff who strides into deep throws. Maybe Stafford can throw deep better from small pockets or while moving backwards or sideways.

we dont have a deep threat yes that is certainly an issue - however on passes down the field even when they were attempted goff did not have much success. I've saw a few different metrics that show him in the bottom 1/3.

 

[OldSchool]

Because this year was his lowest depth of target in his career. Even under Fisher I believe. They clearly changed the offense. They went from a vertical offense to a quick pass, YAC offense.

Which is strange since in 2018 he was able to lead that kind of offense and be good on the deep passing. Then 2019 happened we got rid of our best deep threat and never replaced him and the offensive line fell apart to injuries so Jared had a bad year. McVay never tried to get that deep threat again and never tried that offense again that Jared had been successful at.

 

[OldSchool]

we dont have a deep threat yes that is certainly an issue - however on passes down the field even when they were attempted goff did not have much success. I've saw a few different metrics that show him in the bottom 1/3.

Not having a good deep threat to throw deep too will tend to make you not as successful in those passes.

 

[I like Rams]

All this talk about a deep threat, what about 2017? We had Watson as a deep threat yet we rarely used him. He was more of a decoy. I dont think we nessecarily need a deep threat to improve this offense. We need a decoy. Someone who has to be double covered or watched for throughout the entire game. That was Watson in 17 and Gurley in 18. In 19 we had nothing and a poor oline. In 2020 we had a better oline but no decoy. Maybe Jefferson can become that deep threat and "decoy" and Akers or Hendy can make the next step and take on the responsibilities that Gurley had. Or we can start really using our TE's to create miss matches like we did in 19.

 

[Ellard80]

Not having a good deep threat to throw deep too will tend to make you not as successful in those passes.

yeah for sure... that is a factor. But I also think the accuracy has declined (on deep hits)

Overall I thought his accuracy was great on most of the throws he was asked to take...but it seemed the medium to longish routes the accuracy was up and down... especially more down on the 20 yard plus... although we didn't attempt a lot of them.

 

[Ram_Rally]

Which is strange since in 2018 he was able to lead that kind of offense and be good on the deep passing. Then 2019 happened we got rid of our best deep threat and never replaced him and the offensive line fell apart to injuries so Jared had a bad year. McVay never tried to get that deep threat again and never tried that offense again that Jared had been successful at.

I listened to charles Robinson and terez Owens (can't remember the name but a good listen). He said he talked to Mcvay personally and McVay said last off-season that he wanted Goff to take more control over the offense and be the staple. And robinson speculated that this didn't happen. Sounds similar to what Jourdan was suggesting. All he said she said of course.

 

[Giles]

In 2018 the first thing the Lions did, then the Bears did even better was to change the defense once McVays mic cut out. They also brought extra rushers and played coverage, taking away the go to routes. Goff never adjusted. McVay’’s offense was figured out and it was because Goff couldn’t read defenses and couldn’t process fast enough when defenses adjusted. McVaysoffense was suddenly easy to stop.

Goff worked on it in the offseason but in 2019 he still couldn’t handle it. So we saw McVay simplify the offense. The rollouts were to reduce the field to make it easier for Goff to process. But once teams adjusted they realized that the new look was easy to stop.

It’s all on Goff. He never evolved. He needs a perfect Oline to function. That cannot be counted on every season. He didn’t move the picket, he didnt Change his position and reset to make better throws. Hours an had a good point. It wasn’t even the interceptions that bothered McVay. It was how and why they happened. The locker room was behind Wolford last season more than it was behind Goff because he could do all of those things required of the QB and he worked his butt off. Stafford does those things naturally. If they didn’t trade for Stafford, then next year Wolford would be the likely starter. Listen to her 11 personnel podcast. It’s an hour long but you will learn a lot about the situation. Many things she said are things some of us started speculating about.So w were not imagining what we were seeing. Even bitching about McVay’s play calls. He felt limited by Goff’s limitations. He couldn’t open the playbook.

So it's all goff fault and mcvay holds no responsibility? Yea that's bs and couldn't disagree more.

 

[Mackeyser]

All of our problems on offense started with the Detroit game in 2018 after KC. They came up with a defensive strategy that gave our O fits, and other teams followed suit. Alot of disguises on D that Goff obviously could not figure out. I see this as McVay wanting a qb that can read defenses better, better ball security and better pocket awareness.

People get after the FO for giving Goff a contract, but imagine if we didnt. We wait a year and then have to compete with Watsons and Mahomes contract, if hes worth it. Can we afford to compete with the contracts? If we find out hes not, who replaces him? A high first round draft choice? FA? I think we leave ourselves in a deeper hole if we dont sign him than if we did. But that's my opinion.

Couldn't agree more.

People forget the explosion in QB prices that loomed and then we saw it start with Watson and Mahomes.

Allen's contract is gonna be BONKERS... and on one of the shows, it put Goff and Allen's first 3 years side by side and Goff's got better numbers there... big question about how Buffalo handles it...