Would you have kept Marvin Lewis?

[blackbart]

16 games, 58.3% completion, 2,676 yards, 6.4 yards/attempt, 12 TD, 7 INT, 80.2 RTG
9 games, 63.3% completion, 1,657 yards, 7.2 yards/attempt, 8 TD, 7 INT, 83.9 RTG
10 games, 63.4% completion, 2,001 yards, 7 yards/attempt, 12 TD, 9 INT, 85.1 RTG

Kerry Collins 2008, Shaun Hill 2014, and Austin Davis 2014 respectively. Collins had 3 games with a 100+ Passer Rating in 2008, Hill and Davis had 6 games (combined) in 2014. That was Collins best season with Jeff Fisher. Hell, that was the best season a Titan QB had under Jeff Fisher in the post McNair era.

Regardless of who Kerry Collins was, his level of play with the Titans was no better than the quarterback play we've been getting.

You don't seem to be thinking rationally about this Kerry Collins thing, so I'm not too bothered about my cred. I guess stats and game logs don't tell the whole story.

Dude on partial season doesn't qualify Davis to hold Collins' jock.

 

[drasconis]

There you go with his choice again as if he had every player in the league to choose from. This isn't Madden or fantasy football.

Now you are just being ridiculous, no coach has that. you act as if he was doing nothing but drawing names out of hat. If you give him credit for picks like AD then you you have to knock him for for Pead. He has made some nice moves, especially on defense, but he has also not been forward thinking or prepared on O (that is both game planing and player selection).

Is the plan to give him until he gets a premier QB and see how it goes...how long does he get....how long he goes from a guy who has bad luck to a guy who causes his own bad luck?

 

[drasconis]

Dude on partial season doesn't qualify Davis to hold Collins' jock.

Seriously you are making Collins the line you want to fight over....sheesh.

 

[blackbart]

Now you are just being ridiculous, no coach has that. you act as if he was doing nothing but drawing names out of hat. If you give him credit for picks like AD then you you have to knock him for for Pead. He has made some nice moves, especially on defense, but he has also not been forward thinking or prepared on O (that is both game planing and player selection).

Is the plan to give him until he gets a premier QB and see how it goes...how long does he get....how long he goes from a guy who has bad luck to a guy who causes his own bad luck?

You were not talking about Pead you were talking about Shaun Hill and Austin Davis

You'll have to ask Krone what the plan is, right now it looks like it was to give him 5 years and figure out what's next.

 

[blackbart]

Seriously you are making Collins the line you want to fight over....sheesh.

Not fighting just responding. You know, internet discussion board. Collins was just a guy who happened to have a good record with mediocre play, a good RB and great defense while under Fisher and his scheme the the NFL has supposedly left in ancient history.

 

[Rainram]

One thing I keep seeing is how Fisher inherited a crap team and then had to deal with injuries as if he's the only coach to deal with issues. When the Patriots lose Gronk, doesn't matter. They lose Edelman, doesn't matter. Broncos lose Peyton, doesn't matter. Carolina loses Benjamin, doesn't matter. Great coaches rise to the occasion, everyone else uses it as an excuse.

Great coaches and great teams do rise to the occasion and overcome the injuries and win. I will concede your over-arching point.

Your examples are not very analogous, however.
I'll forego the Patriots, because as much as I despise them, they are coached well. No team overcomes injuries/adversity quite like them...and it makes me fucking sick.
Broncos lose Peyton...okay. They didn't lose Peyton of 2008. He was not a good QB this year. They were winning 'in spite of him' this year.'
Benjamin...great player. The passing game is not very good without him. They win on the back of their Defense and run game. So while the loss of him did have a big impact, the coaching, and the team overall, overcame it. Now if they lose Cam, or Kalil, or Keuchly...or a combination of them...how's that shake out for em?

I'm not making excuses, because like I said, I agree with your main point that Great coaches and teams rise to the occasion. But like @-X- pointed out, our injuries have been substantial qualitatively and quantitatively. Both DEs (1 Pro Bowler), 2 starting DBs, starting LB (potential Pro Bowler), two Starting OL (losing Brown sucked!). It's amazing our defense has played as well as they have.

I'm not a big fan of the 'injury excuse' either (even if I think it carries some weight this year). This team's major problem...QB. Decent QB play and we have 2 more wins. Period. Even with the injuries.

 

[HitStick]

Those are all better teams. I get what you're saying, but a team lighter on talent can't afford to lose players. A team heavy on talent can spare a guy or two. This Rams team can't afford to lose Ogletree, Gaines, Johnson, Long, Quinn, Brown, Williams, Havenstein, Saffold and Bailey while watching Foles methodically tank. Unless the NFL rule of thumb is that all of your backups should be better than the starters.

What I'm saying is, Fisher has had 4 years to build that better team, and he hasn't done a good job. Think about it, he's been a head coach for 20 YEARS and has made the playoffs 6 TIMES. Idk about you, but that is not an acceptable number on any level. How anyone can let that sink in and still have faith that he's going to put anything better on the field that we've seen is delusional. Fisher is the exact definition of being mediocre. It's only a matter of time before we start losing core players because naturally, competitors want to win. Fisher does not win.

 

[HitStick]

Great coaches and great teams do rise to the occasion and overcome the injuries and win. I will concede your over-arching point.

Your examples are not very analogous, however.
I'll forego the Patriots, because as much as I despise them, they are coached well. No team overcomes injuries/adversity quite like them...and it makes me freaking sick.
Broncos lose Peyton...okay. They didn't lose Peyton of 2008. He was not a good QB this year. They were winning 'in spite of him' this year.'
Benjamin...great player. The passing game is not very good without him. They win on the back of their Defense and run game. So while the loss of him did have a big impact, the coaching, and the team overall, overcame it. Now if they lose Cam, or Kalil, or Keuchly...or a combination of them...how's that shake out for em?

I'm not making excuses, because like I said, I agree with your main point that Great coaches and teams rise to the occasion. But like @-X- pointed out, our injuries have been substantial qualitatively and quantitatively. Both DEs (1 Pro Bowler), 2 starting DBs, starting LB (potential Pro Bowler), two Starting OL (losing Brown sucked!). It's amazing our defense has played as well as they have.

I'm not a big fan of the 'injury excuse' either (even if I think it carries some weight this year). This team's major problem...QB. Decent QB play and we have 2 more wins. Period. Even with the injuries.

I won't credit us Ogletree because I feel like Barron stepped in and has played just as good. The DEs going down is a HUGE blow, but notice we have the depth to over come it. Notice how we lose two DEs and it's not actually the end of the world, but we lose two offensive lineman and suddenly Gurley can't run. Fisher spent way too much of our RGIII bounty building a dominant D and neglected the O. He then tried to cover his ass by building a make shift offensive line in one draft. When you have multiple rookies on the line what does that say about our depth? We have tons of depth on D and absolutely non on O.

 

[-X-]

What I'm saying is, Fisher has had 4 years to build that better team, and he hasn't done a good job. Think about it, he's been a head coach for 20 YEARS and has made the playoffs 6 TIMES. Idk about you, but that is not an acceptable number on any level. How anyone can let that sink in and still have faith that he's going to put anything better on the field that we've seen is delusional. Fisher is the exact definition of being mediocre. It's only a matter of time before we start losing core players because naturally, competitors want to win. Fisher does not win.

That's cool. I don't know if you're calling me delusional, or if that's just your general view of people who think Cinderella stories are a fantasy, but let me bypass that and tell you how I feel about this situation as a whole. I can't change anything. I can't even HOPE to change anything. No amount of wailing on my behalf will cause any measure of change in the Rams Organization. I can only hope for the best week in and week out as other people (a) make decisions that affect my favorite team, and (b) other people accept copious sums of money to PLAY for my favorite team. All I can do is watch and hope there's a return on my 4 hour Sunday investments. If I let it get to the point that I'm angered by what's going on, then I'm just not gonna invest anymore time in it. That's a conscious decision I've made.

So if someone makes the decision that Fisher deserves to finish out his contract, or even decides to give him a contract extension, I have two options.
Support the people who are charged with turning this team around, or find something else to do with my time. I'm gonna choose the first option and make the best of whatever situation presents itself. And I'll have fun along the way. There's simply more to life than living vicariously through other people and giving them ultimate power over my emotions based on what they can or cannot do on a football field. Sure it'll irritate me from time to time, and sometimes it'll bring me immense joy. But that's life as a football fan, brother. Get aboard, strap yourself in, take the ride, and try not to puke.

 

[drasconis]

You were not talking about Pead you were talking about Shaun Hill and Austin Davis

You'll have to ask Krone what the plan is, right now it looks like it was to give him 5 years and figure out what's next.

What the heck are you talking about.....Please find the post where I discuss Hill and Davis (I might have said at some point in this long discussion that he choose them- and he did).....I was the one saying that he has control over his talent selection....can you even keep track of the conversation?

As for Stans plan, we will all see...but I don't think you have anymore insight into than anyone else on the board.

 

[Rainram]

I won't credit us Ogletree because I feel like Barron stepped in and has played just as good. The DEs going down is a HUGE blow, but notice we have the depth to over come it. Notice how we lose two DEs and it's not actually the end of the world, but we lose two offensive lineman and suddenly Gurley can't run. Fisher spent way too much of our RGIII bounty building a dominant D and neglected the O. He then tried to cover his ass by building a make shift offensive line in one draft. When you have multiple rookies on the line what does that say about our depth? We have tons of depth on D and absolutely non on O.

I wouldn't say he neglected it. Just hasn't been effective at it to this point it would seem.

Defensive Players Drafted (I just went through round 6 of the drafts...ain't much relative beyond that)
2012 - Brockers, Jenkins, Johnson
2013 - Ogletree, McDonald, McGee
2014 - Donald, Joyner, Alexander, Gaines
2015 - BIG FAT NADA
Total - 10

Offensive Players Drafted
2012 - Quick, Pead, Givens, Watkins (6), Zeurlein
2013 - Austin, Bailey, Jones (4), Stacy
2014 - Robinson (1), Mason, Gilbert (QB)
2015 - Gurley, Havenstein (2), Brown (3), Mannion, Donnal (4), Sasser, Wichmann (6)
Total - 19 - Even if you take out 2015 (for whatever reason), that's still 12.

2 QBs
7 OLinemen - a 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd, 2-4ths, a 5th and a 6th.

That's hardly neglectful as measured by the number of resources thrown at the offense. It seems very balanced actually. And I think in every year the drafts were given high grades by analysts and fans alike.

Now...The Quality, Evaluation or Development of the players on the Offensive side of the ball can certainly be called in to question.
Scouts, OC, OLine Coach (sorry Boudreau...I liked you...but you've lost me), Sherman...and everyone else that has to do with Offense here --->> http://www.stlouisrams.com/team/coaches.html

 

[MountainRam]

Marvin Lewis had Palmer and now Dalton.

Fisher will never have a winning season with Rams (or anywhere in future) if he cannot at least find a Palmer or Dalton. The question is Can Fisher find one in 2016? Truthfully, what is your confidence level on this?

I am of the opinion Fisher should get 5th as I am tired of coaching changes every 3-4 years but can he find a QB? This is the only question that matters going into 2016 in my opinion.

 

[blackbart]

I won't credit us Ogletree because I feel like Barron stepped in and has played just as good. The DEs going down is a HUGE blow, but notice we have the depth to over come it. Notice how we lose two DEs and it's not actually the end of the world, but we lose two offensive lineman and suddenly Gurley can't run. Fisher spent way too much of our RGIII bounty building a dominant D and neglected the O. He then tried to cover his ass by building a make shift offensive line in one draft. When you have multiple rookies on the line what does that say about our depth? We have tons of depth on D and absolutely non on O.

Even with the RGIII picks how many were there? Any of those 5-7th round picks work out to be much even on other teams? How many players are left on the 53 since Fisher got here? Fisher hasn't built a great defense? Is there anyone left on the O at all? Did they miss some picks? Yeah who doesn't. We don't know jack about what happened in the draft room, some minor bits and and pieces come out occasionally about this player or that who they could not get to, trying to move to get to someone else. Neglecting the O yeah, Long, Saffold, Wells, Cook, Gurley, Mason, Quick, Austin, Reynolds, Robinson, Foles, Britt, Kenndricks they haven't been trying at all. Are they all probowlers no but they absolutely have not been neglecting the Offense

 

[drasconis]

I wouldn't say he neglected it. Just hasn't been effective at it to this point it would seem.

Defensive Players Drafted (I just went through round 6 of the drafts...ain't much relative beyond that)
2012 - Brockers, Jenkins, Johnson
2013 - Ogletree, McDonald, McGee
2014 - Donald, Joyner, Alexander, Gaines
2015 - BIG FAT NADA
Total - 10

Offensive Players Drafted
2012 - Quick, Pead, Givens, Watkins (6), Zeurlein
2013 - Austin, Bailey, Jones (4), Stacy
2014 - Robinson (1), Mason, Gilbert (QB)
2015 - Gurley, Havenstein (2), Brown (3), Mannion, Donnal (4), Sasser, Wichmann (6)
Total - 19 - Even if you take out 2015 (for whatever reason), that's still 12.

2 QBs
7 OLinemen - a 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd, 2-4ths, a 5th and a 6th.

That's hardly neglectful as measured by the number of resources thrown at the offense. It seems very balanced actually. And I think in every year the drafts were given high grades by analysts and fans alike.

Now...The Quality, Evaluation or Development of the players on the Offensive side of the ball can certainly be called in to question.
Scouts, OC, OLine Coach (sorry Boudreau...I liked you...but you've lost me), Sherman...and everyone else that has to do with Offense here --->> http://www.stlouisrams.com/team/coaches.html

The only issue is prior to 2014 - the first 3 years - it was
1 QB (6th)
3 OLinemen - 1st, 4th, 5th

He more than doubled down in year 4, and those guys are likely to be multi-year projects. (people have said that it takes 3 yrs for a 2nd round WR to develop - how long for a 4th round OL)

That said the drafts were generally graded high, and they did find talent...unfortunately it is heavily on the D side of the ball.

 

[Debacled]

This team is going nowhere without a QB. I'll even go as far to say any other coach in Fishers shoes would have followed a similar path with the QB position. They weren't going to make a move for a different QB after Bradfords first ACL tear due to contract obligations (he was close to untradeable due to the cap hit). The fact they managed to move on from him this past season was surprising to say the least.

They lost a season and a half to those tears from Bradford. How well do teams typically do without their starting QB? Ask the Cowboys, they are living in purgatory this year.

Just what were they supposed to do since Bradfords last ACL tear to improve the position? They rolled the dice on Foles and its not working out. Starting calibur QBs typically don't just pop up in FA or even in the draft. Hell there were only 7 selected this past season, and the Rams took the 4th off the board actually with Mannion. As I mentioned earlier they weren't in a position in the 2014 draft to give up on Bradford.

A new staff will not fix this team. All it will do is restart that damn rebuilding clock. New systems mean new learning curve, and new personnel, and new philosophy. As I first mentioned they need a QB.

 

[dieterbrock]

Dude on partial season doesn't qualify Davis to hold Collins' jock.

You missed the point there man.
Point being Collins level of production was no better than that of the guys mentioned

 

[dieterbrock]

Marvin Lewis had Palmer and now Dalton

Marvin Lewis won 8 games in his first year a broke down Jon Kitna.

 

[blackbart]

What the heck are you talking about.....Please find the post where I discuss Hill and Davis (I might have said at some point in this long discussion that he choose them- and he did).....I was the one saying that he has control over his talent selection....can you even keep track of the conversation?

As for Stans plan, we will all see...but I don't think you have anymore insight into than anyone else on the board.

It's debatable, my wife would tell you for sure I cannot keep track but she's a Chargers fan so.....

As for Stan's plans I probably have even less insight than some here and freely admit it, like 99% here I'm just a fan.

Pead obviously did little for this team while he was here but he did show some ability as a 3rd down back and STer. Were there other picks who are working out better in their situation. Sure. But that doesn't mean they'd have done well in StL, especially OLinemen the Jones Dome curse controls all.

 

[drasconis]

It's debatable, my wife would tell you for sure I cannot keep track but she's a Chargers fan so.....

As for Stan's plans I probably have even less insight than some here and freely admit it, like 99% here I'm just a fan.

Pead obviously did little for this team while he was here but he did show some ability as a 3rd down back and STer. Were there other picks who are working out better in their situation. Sure. But that doesn't mean they'd have done well in StL, especially OLinemen the Jones Dome curse controls all.

nah, man I got snappy. Been stressed and am up posting way too late....

The fact is we are never going to meet on the subject, you won't convince me, and I won't you

You see as JF as a solid coach who has some bad luck and given more time likely to be successful.
I see him as a mediocre coach who is much a victim of his own poor choices as anything, I don't believe that he will bring substantial success without a lot of luck going his way, and unlikely to be able to sustain it. (Do I believe he would eventually get us to the playoffs, yes - but as they say even a blind dog finds a bone occasionally, I don't think he would sustain it).

You see the risk of a new coach as too great and fear (and it is statistically reasonable) the team will slide back instead of improve if there is change.
I want to get greatness (think Pats/Packers/etc.) and see being "average"/"good" as an overall loss. I know it is a risk - for every Singletary->Harbaugh there are 2+ Martz->Linehann - but since I see anything less than top tier as a loss anyway it is worth it to me.

You ask about Lewis, the fact is he would have been on a serious hot seat in 2008 (and he was) in my book. He made a very public and clear change of direction which probably swayed the owner for 1 more year (or maybe his owner was just cheap), I can't say if I would have been swayed. Honestly his immediate success after that saved him. That said he is on the hot seat now because he hasn't shown he can get over the hump - he is falling into the Schottenhimer/Turner group of coaches who only do it in the regular season but fail in the post season. Teams know they have limited windows and hate to see it wasted (think Bucs with Dungy - though I think they were wrong), no one wants to be SD looking back and going how did we waste all that talent.

 

[MountainRam]

Marvin Lewis won 8 games in his first year a broke down Jon Kitna.

Didn't Fisher win 7.5 games with Bradford in season 1? Now Fisher needs a Dalton. Else, Fisher will forever be remembered as...well you know...