Torn On The Draft-sammy Watkins

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jrry32

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We'll see what he comes in at at the combine. Most colleges "exxagerate" their player's measurements. Matthews does not look anywhere near as big as those you mentioned. I also don't believe you draft an offensive lineman in that area of the first rd. unless he is "exceptional" .... and many scouts are already pointing out lots of deficiencies in his game. I could be wrong ... but I just don't see "special" in him. I see "good". Good should be drafted later, IMHO

That rarely happens with OLs. Most OLs come in heavier at the combine because they use the off-season to bulk up. Matthews still had quite a bit of growth potential as he carried his weight extremely well. My guess is that he'll show up to the combine at 6'5" 310ish.

I'd love to know what deficiencies Matthews has. I've seen very little in the way of negatives in my film review of his game. Generates push in the run game, athleticism and feet to handle speed rushers, anchor and strength to handle power rushers, textbook technique, great instincts and a high level understanding of the position.

There's really not much there to scrutinize. The worst things I've seen in his game are that he only has average length, isn't an elite athlete and doesn't really play with a mean streak. Regardless, the guy is a plug and play OL with more than a few Pro Bowls in his future and can play anywhere on your OL. I don't see why anyone wouldn't want that.

He's safe, he's going to be a quality player and he's incredibly smart and hard working. What's not to like?
 

jrry32

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I don't think you watch this guy enough my friend, he drops a lot of passes, at least more than he should.

I watched him in college quite a bit and he rarely ever let a ball hit the ground. Also seen him in the NFL quite a bit. Dropping passes in the NFL is different from dropping passes in college. Calvin Johnson drops a decent amount of passes. You're not about to tell me that Sammy Watkins has better hands than he does, are you? Same with Dez Bryant. Same with Andre Johnson.

I saw Alshon Jeffery drop maybe 3 passes in his entire career at South Carolina. He dropped 5 passes this year in the NFL. Anquan Boldin? Dropped 6 passes.

All those guys have better hands than Watkins does. The NFL is a different animal.
 

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I watched him in college quite a bit and he rarely ever let a ball hit the ground. Also seen him in the NFL quite a bit. Dropping passes in the NFL is different from dropping passes in college. Calvin Johnson drops a decent amount of passes. You're not about to tell me that Sammy Watkins has better hands than he does, are you? Same with Dez Bryant. Same with Andre Johnson.

Now we are getting somewhere because that is exactly what I am saying. This guy has Holt-like hands my friend.

And please don't attempt to put any of those guys in Holts " hands" class.

Believe it if you like but it's true.
 
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jrry32

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Now we are getting somewhere because that is exactly what I am saying. This guy has Holt-like hands my friend.

And please don't attempt to put any of those guys in Holts " hands" class.

Believe it if you like but it's true.

Well, I guess you're entitled to your opinion(not the "truth"...an opinion) but I definitely won't ever agree with you. I think guys like Alshon Jeffery, Anquan Boldin, Calvin Johnson, Dez Bryant, etc. are on a whole another level from Sammy Watkins. I've seen Watkins drop easy passes too. Lets not pretend that the guy has never had a drop in his career.

But the real question is...if Watkins actually is better...find me him making a catch like the ones posted below:





Because if I'm throwing a pass up for grabs and I am choosing between Sammy Watkins or Calvin Johnson/Alshon Jeffery...it's not even a question who I'd take.

I don't care if Calvin drops a pass every now and then due to a lapse in concentration or trying to run before he secures it. I know he can routinely make catches and plays that Watkins will not ever be able to make with any sort of consistency. Same with Alshon Jeffery. Same with Dez Bryant. Same with Anquan Boldin. Same with AJ Green.
 

bwdenverram

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Not big enough? Ehhhh, He's bigger than Panthers Pro Bowl LT Jordan Gross and he still has room to add more weight to his frame. 6'5" 305-310 is big enough for a NFL OL.

The weight and size of a few recent first round OTs at the combine:
Luke Joeckel - 6'6" 306
Eric Fisher - 6'7" 306
Lane Johnson - 6'6" 303
Justin Pugh - 6'5" 307
Matt Kalil - 6'7" 306
Tyron Smith - 6'5" 307
Eugene Monroe - 6'5" 309
Michael Oher - 6'5" 309
Russell Okung - 6'5" 307
Ryan Clady - 6'6" 309
Sam Baker - 6'5" 309
Joe Staley - 6'6" 306

I think people get to caught up in size. Jake Long is 6'7" 322lbs and I've seen guys like Navarro Bowman knock him on his ass. Unless you're 322lbs of pure muscle technique is more important than pure size.
 

ReddingRam

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I guess that is the difference between you and I Jrry ... I look for the natural things you can't coach like Size, length, athleticism, and a mean streak in separating the "elite" from the "good". To separate the men form the boys in the NFL, you have to have those natural intangibles or you will just be average at best. There are many many "very good" college players who just didn't have the things to separate them at the next level. Lets ask this question... if you have average length and average athleticism .. and your heart does not have a killer instinct ... how do you hold up against the Robert Quinn's, Mathis', Aldon Smith's of the NFL? Techniques can be coached. But natural attributes cannot. You either have them or you don't.

I could be wrong. And I'm not totally against drafting Matthews.... I just wouldn't use my high end coveted picks on a guy who physically is average and intensity is questioned. That's just me. It is my opinion.
 

Tron

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Well, I guess you're entitled to your opinion(not the "truth"...an opinion) but I definitely won't ever agree with you. I think guys like Alshon Jeffery, Anquan Boldin, Calvin Johnson, Dez Bryant, etc. are on a whole another level from Sammy Watkins. I've seen Watkins drop easy passes too. Lets not pretend that the guy has never had a drop in his career.

But the real question is...if Watkins actually is better...find me him making a catch like the ones posted below:





Because if I'm throwing a pass up for grabs and I am choosing between Sammy Watkins or Calvin Johnson/Alshon Jeffery...it's not even a question who I'd take.

I don't care if Calvin drops a pass every now and then due to a lapse in concentration or trying to run before he secures it. I know he can routinely make catches and plays that Watkins will not ever be able to make with any sort of consistency. Same with Alshon Jeffery. Same with Dez Bryant. Same with Anquan Boldin. Same with AJ Green.


Who do you see having the bests hands in this years draft? Does anyone have hands close to Jeffery and the others and able to make those tough catches?
 

jrry32

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I guess that is the difference between you and I Jrry ... I look for the natural things you can't coach like Size, length, athleticism, and a mean streak in separating the "elite" from the "good". To separate the men form the boys in the NFL, you have to have those natural intangibles or you will just be average at best. There are many many "very good" college players who just didn't have the things to separate them at the next level. Lets ask this question... if you have average length and average athleticism .. and your heart does not have a killer instinct ... how do you hold up against the Robert Quinn's, Mathis', Aldon Smith's of the NFL? Techniques can be coached. But natural attributes cannot. You either have them or you don't.

Average length and average athleticism? Hold up there, partner. There's nothing average about Jake Matthews's athleticism. I said the guy isn't elite. He's not a total freak athlete like Lane Johnson or Walter Jones or Tyron Smith. But Jake Matthews is plenty athletic. He's got just as much athleticism as top tier OTs Ryan Clady, Joe Thomas and Russell Okung.

Frankly, what separates the average from the good the good from the great and the great from elite aren't physical tools. There are plenty of guys in the NFL with the physical tools to be great or elite. What separates the best from the rest are their work ethic, football IQ, instincts and technique.

Jerry Rice was 6'2" 200 and ran a 4.59 40 coming out. The guy is easily the greatest WR to ever play the game. Yet, he's nowhere near the most athletic WR.

Peyton Manning and Joe Montana are very arguably the two greatest QBs to ever play the game. Yet neither players ever had rocket arms. Manning has never been very mobile. Montana, while mobile, was short and skinny. Neither were near the most physically gifted QBs to play the game.

Jake Matthews has all the physical talent needed to be great. He has excellent feet, good balance, the strength and power to drive the man in front of him off the LOS and he has the natural bend necessary to win the leverage battle. There's a difference between not having physical talent and not having elite physical talent. But elite physical talent isn't necessary to be great or even elite.

As far as a mean streak is concerned, most OLs don't have it. It's nice and all. Harvey Dahl is a guy with a mean streak. But don't confuse that for intensity. Jake Matthews never gets lazy, he never takes plays off and he doesn't let up in the run game. He just doesn't have that innate nastiness to him like a Harvey Dahl does. But neither did a lot of the best LTs who have come out recently. Joe Thomas and Matt Kalil were both criticized for not playing with a mean streak. Hasn't held either back.

Technique can be coached? In an ideal world, it can. But what you find is that a lot of players just don't learn in the NFL if they haven't learned much in college. You can refine technique in the NFL. But the miscalculation that a lot of teams make is that it can easily be taught. In A LOT of cases, the player doesn't really ever truly get where you want him to be.

You gotta have that natural work ethic, UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME(by far the most important thing...Jason Smith never had this) and instincts for the position or else you're never going to be a quality player on the OL.

I could be wrong. And I'm not totally against drafting Matthews.... I just wouldn't use my high end coveted picks on a guy who physically is average and intensity is questioned. That's just me. It is my opinion.

Well, I disagree. I don't think there's anything physically average about the guy except for his height. And I would never consider questioning his intensity. You can see on the field with the way he anticipates and out-maneuvers pass rushers that this is a guy that takes his job very seriously and spends A LOT of time preparing in the film room.
 

jrry32

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Who do you see having the bests hands in this years draft? Does anyone have hands close to Jeffery and the others and able to make those tough catches?

Right now, I see Mike Evans as the best. But I want to see more film on Eric Thomas of Troy before I lock that in because he's right there with him.

Close to Jeffery? Yea, I'd say those two could be in terms of hands. But they aren't quite on that level.

Davante Adams is also up there.
 

ReddingRam

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Average length and average athleticism? Hold up there, partner. There's nothing average about Jake Matthews's athleticism. I said the guy isn't elite. He's not a total freak athlete like Lane Johnson or Walter Jones or Tyron Smith. But Jake Matthews is plenty athletic. He's got just as much athleticism as top tier OTs Ryan Clady, Joe Thomas and Russell Okung.

Frankly, what separates the average from the good the good from the great and the great from elite aren't physical tools. There are plenty of guys in the NFL with the physical tools to be great or elite. What separates the best from the rest are their work ethic, football IQ, instincts and technique.

Jerry Rice was 6'2" 200 and ran a 4.59 40 coming out. The guy is easily the greatest WR to ever play the game. Yet, he's nowhere near the most athletic WR.

Peyton Manning and Joe Montana are very arguably the two greatest QBs to ever play the game. Yet neither players ever had rocket arms. Manning has never been very mobile. Montana, while mobile, was short and skinny. Neither were near the most physically gifted QBs to play the game.

Jake Matthews has all the physical talent needed to be great. He has excellent feet, good balance, the strength and power to drive the man in front of him off the LOS and he has the natural bend necessary to win the leverage battle. There's a difference between not having physical talent and not having elite physical talent. But elite physical talent isn't necessary to be great or even elite.

As far as a mean streak is concerned, most OLs don't have it. It's nice and all. Harvey Dahl is a guy with a mean streak. But don't confuse that for intensity. Jake Matthews never gets lazy, he never takes plays off and he doesn't let up in the run game. He just doesn't have that innate nastiness to him like a Harvey Dahl does. But neither did a lot of the best LTs who have come out recently. Joe Thomas and Matt Kalil were both criticized for not playing with a mean streak. Hasn't held either back.

Technique can be coached? In an ideal world, it can. But what you find is that a lot of players just don't learn in the NFL if they haven't learned much in college. You can refine technique in the NFL. But the miscalculation that a lot of teams make is that it can easily be taught. In A LOT of cases, the player doesn't really ever truly get where you want him to be.

You gotta have that natural work ethic, UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME(by far the most important thing...Jason Smith never had this) and instincts for the position or else you're never going to be a quality player on the OL.



Well, I disagree. I don't think there's anything physically average about the guy except for his height. And I would never consider questioning his intensity. You can see on the field with the way he anticipates and out-maneuvers pass rushers that this is a guy that takes his job very seriously and spends A LOT of time preparing in the film room.
You may disagree ... but that doesn't mean you are right.... just like my opinion doesn't mean I am right. Why don't we just wait and see before we start handing out NFL awards to guys who have yet played a down in the NFL? You ... like me ...are a fan. Ok "partner"?
 

jrry32

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You may disagree ... but that doesn't mean you are right.... just like my opinion doesn't mean I am right. Why don't we just wait and see before we start handing out NFL awards to guys who have yet played a down in the NFL? You ... like me ...are a fan. Ok "partner"?

I never said otherwise. I only explained what my opinion was. And I didn't "hand out any awards". I only used examples to show why there are flaws in your theory.

But I'll continue to rank prospects, I'll continue to voice my opinion about them and I'll continue to make projections on what I think they'll be because fan or not, it's what I enjoy doing. Sounds good, partner. ;)
 

ReddingRam

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I never said otherwise. I only explained what my opinion was. And I didn't "hand out any awards". I only used examples to show why there are flaws in your theory.

But I'll continue to rank prospects, I'll continue to voice my opinion about them and I'll continue to make projections on what I think they'll be because fan or not, it's what I enjoy doing. Sounds good, partner. ;)
Did you not say he will play in many Pro Bowls? and my theory has flaws, yet your's doesn't?So... just one example ... technique can't be coached .. .that is why NFL teams pick up so many guys with NATURAL talent and DEVELOP them? and I never said Matthews would not be "good" ... I said he does not have "elite" natural talents.... you even stated in your first post that the knocks coming out are "Lack of length, elite athleticism and not having a mean streak. Then you turn around and try and say that he does have those things. My point is ... if the guy is NOT elite... you don't take him top 5 in the draft. Trade down and get that "good" where "good" should be taken. If you're gonna use the pick in the top 5 ... make sure that guy is ELITE. That was my point. I would rather take Robinson in the top 5 if OL is where we go ... his measurables are more elite .. .and that guy will probably spend time at OG before OT while learning and perfecting.

Yep .. you can have your opinion... as I can ... but then you come out and call MY opinion flawed. See how that works? Have a beer partner ... and enjoy the show :)
 

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jrry32

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Did you not say he will play in many Pro Bowls? and my theory has flaws, yet your's doesn't?So... just one example ... technique can't be coached .. .that is why NFL teams pick up so many guys with NATURAL talent and DEVELOP them? and I never said Matthews would not be "good" ... I said he does not have "elite" natural talents.... you even stated in your first post that the knocks coming out are "Lack of length, elite athleticism and not having a mean streak. Then you turn around and try and say that he does have those things. My point is ... if the guy is NOT elite... you don't take him top 5 in the draft. Trade down and get that "good" where "good" should be taken. If you're gonna use the pick in the top 5 ... make sure that guy is ELITE. That was my point. I would rather take Robinson in the top 5 if OL is where we go ... his measurables are more elite .. .and that guy will probably spend time at OG before OT while learning and perfecting.

Yep .. you can have your opinion... as I can ... but then you come out and call MY opinion flawed. See how that works? Have a beer partner ... and enjoy the show :)

I never said technique CAN'T be coached. I also didn't turn around and say he has those things. I reiterated that he doesn't.

I did say the Pro Bowl line. Didn't really think of that as an award but I'll concede you that point(and I stand by the comment).

Elite players are called elite because there aren't many of them. There are...what...~20 elite players in the NFL? So your odds of finding an elite player in the draft? Quite low. Percentage of the first round that become quality starters on average? ~40%. So yes, I'll spend a top 5 pick on a guy that may not end up being elite if I feel assured that he's a quality starter.

I am not calling your entire opinion flawed. Only one part of it...the idea that a guy must have great/elite physical attributes to be great/elite.

You're welcome to your opinion that he's average physically and lacks intensity. But I disagree. Then again, maybe we define intensity differently. For me, intensity and mean streak are two different things. That might explain part of the disconnect.
 

ReddingRam

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I never said technique CAN'T be coached. I also didn't turn around and say he has those things. I reiterated that he doesn't.

I did say the Pro Bowl line. Didn't really think of that as an award but I'll concede you that point(and I stand by the comment).

Elite players are called elite because there aren't many of them. There are...what...~20 elite players in the NFL? So your odds of finding an elite player in the draft? Quite low. Percentage of the first round that become quality starters on average? ~40%. So yes, I'll spend a top 5 pick on a guy that may not end up being elite if I feel assured that he's a quality starter.

I am not calling your entire opinion flawed. Only one part of it...the idea that a guy must have great/elite physical attributes to be great/elite.

You're welcome to your opinion that he's average physically and lacks intensity. But I disagree. Then again, maybe we define intensity differently. For me, intensity and mean streak are two different things. That might explain part of the disconnect.
It's all good my man ... You would draft him @ #2 and I wouldn't. We agree to disagree.
 

PressureD41

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In your mock above you believe that the Browns will trade their two first rd'ers for our #2 pick.....what would you do if the Browns refuse to give up both of their first round selections for the Rams #2 but here's what the Browns offered you.....which one would you take?
Rams 1st rd.#2 selection for:
(A).Browns- 1st rd. #26, 2nd rd.#36 & 3rd rd.#68
(B).Browns- 2nd rd.#36, 3rd rd.#68 & future First rd. in 2015
(C).Browns- 1st rd. #4, 2nd rd.#36 & 4th rd #100.
(D).Browns- 1st rd.#26 & Future 1st rd in 2015
(E).Browns- Future 1st rd in 2015 & 2016

==========================

Package C because we could still trade down a few more spots and load up w/ more 2nd rd picks
 

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It obviously involves use and volume, but A.J. Green has the most receptions (260?) in his first three years in NFL history. Watkins hands look outstanding to me, not sure they are good as Green's?
 

jrry32

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It's all good my man ... You would draft him @ #2 and I wouldn't. We agree to disagree.

Absolutely. Draft wouldn't be interesting if there weren't any conflicting opinions. Have a good evening. :cool: